The fear of Atheism

[kdrier]

Who claims we just appeared out of thin air?

Well if you don't believe in religion or anything of the sort, surely you believe in evolution, big bang theory, or something of the sort. I believe it's possible some of those things happened, but I believe someone or something caused them to happen, they didn't just happen all of a sudden.

But getting back on topic, I don't think people fear there not being a god or a higher power. People know there is no facts saying there is a god, just as there is no facts saying there is not one. No one of this intelligence level, of this world, could ever convince there is nothing of higher intelligence, just as though no one could convince most christians there is not a god. It's natural and easy to assume there is nothing else, it takes faith to assume there is.

 

[kdrier]

It doesn't matter that I created the picture. The point is that accidents and coincidences happen. It's not likely that we would become what we have, meaning humans, just like it's not likely that I'd crease the picture in just that way, but both things happened. The point is that just because something unlikely happened doesn't mean that it couldn't be an accident or coincidence. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily lead to intelligent design.

Accident or not, coincidence or not, you did cause that cease to happen. You created the cease, whether you ment to or not. Maybe it is a coincidence we are what we have become, but something enabled that coincidence to happen. I know coincidences happen, especially on our intelligence level. Maybe some aspects of life are a coincidence, maybe we are a coincidence for something of higher intelligence, although I doubt it.

 

[Magic Man]

Well if you don't believe in religion or anything of the sort, surely you believe in evolution, big bang theory, or something of the sort. I believe it's possible some of those things happened, but I believe someone or something caused them to happen, they didn't just happen all of a sudden.

But getting back on topic, I don't think people fear there not being a god or a higher power. People know there is no facts saying there is a god, just as there is no facts saying there is not one. No one of this intelligence level, of this world, could ever convince there is nothing of higher intelligence, just as though no one could convince most christians there is not a god. It's natural and easy to assume there is nothing else, it takes faith to assume there is.

It's apparently not that easy to assume that, because plenty of people decide to continue believing in religion not based on faith. Why is faith inherently harder and more valuable then the opposite?

 

[Magic Man]

Accident or not, coincidence or not, you did cause that cease to happen. You created the cease, whether you ment to or not. Maybe it is a coincidence we are what we have become, but something enabled that coincidence to happen. I know coincidences happen, especially on our intelligence level. Maybe some aspects of life are a coincidence, maybe we are a coincidence for something of higher intelligence, although I doubt it.

Just like forces of nature cause things to happen. It doesn't mean it's intelligent design. It doesn't have to be a god that enabled that coincidence, plenty of forces we know about cause accidents and coincidences that we can actually document.

 

[Michel07]

Everyone's fascinated with their opinions, or else they'd dispose of them, and get new ones.

It doesn't matter that I created the picture. The point is that accidents and coincidences happen. It's not likely that we would become what we have, meaning humans, just like it's not likely that I'd crease the picture in just that way, but both things happened. The point is that just because something unlikely happened doesn't mean that it couldn't be an accident or coincidence. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily lead to intelligent design.

There are different views on that including " coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous" some people don't believe in accidents other than ones created by man. From a theological viewpoint the creation was not an accident but maybe the fall of man was his accident.

 

[Magic Man]

There are different views on that including " coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous" some people don't believe in accidents other than ones created by man. From a theological viewpoint the creation was not an accident but maybe the fall of man was his accident.

That's great, but it does nothing to refute my assertion that our whole existence could very well be an accident, and that it's not unreasonable to assume that it was based on what we know. The point is that the evidence that we have doesn't necessarily lead to intelligent design, it only points to it as a possibility, like everything else.

 

[kdrier]

It's apparently not that easy to assume that, because plenty of people decide to continue believing in religion not based on faith. Why is faith inherently harder and more valuable then the opposite?

Well, there is no facts saying there is a god or a greater level of intelligence, so it's easy to assume there is not one. People believe in religions not based on faith? such as? All the religions involving a higher intelligence rely on faith.

Just like forces of nature cause things to happen. It doesn't mean it's intelligent design. It doesn't have to be a god that enabled that coincidence, plenty of forces we know about cause accidents and coincidences that we can actually document.

Yes, forces of nature? Where did forces of nature come from? Is it a coincidence gravity pulls all objects at the same rate towards the earth? I know "forces of nature" is a concept, but I still believe whatever force/intelligence created humans created everything involving our world, including all the forces that may impact it, coincidentally or not.

I guess what I'm saying is I agree forces cause a lot of things to happen. Do you think forces are just there?

 

[Smoke]

" God did not shoot dice with the universe." guess who?

The same guy who said this:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.​

 

[Michel07]

That's great, but it does nothing to refute my assertion that our whole existence could very well be an accident, and that it's not unreasonable to assume that it was based on what we know. The point is that the evidence that we have doesn't necessarily lead to intelligent design, it only points to it as a possibility, like everything else.

The only way everyone will be satisfied with their arguments being proven correct or wrong is if God exists. If the atheists were correct then when we die we would merely slip into unconciousness and there can be no knowledge without conciousness. One would never know anything. But if God exists then death is not the final word and proof of religions truths will be vindicated. That's another one of the problems I have with atheism. It is the only philosophy that has absolutely no mechanism to prove itself correct. I believe something has to at least have a chance to be proven to the most ardent denyer through some mechanism even if it is not attainable by us in order to have any viability and that is where atheism flunks dramatically.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, there is no facts saying there is a god or a greater level of intelligence, so it's easy to assume there is not one. People believe in religions not based on faith? such as? All the religions involving a higher intelligence rely on faith.



Yes, forces of nature? Where did forces of nature come from? Is it a coincidence gravity pulls all objects at the same rate towards the earth? I know "forces of nature" is a concept, but I still believe whatever force/intelligence created humans created everything involving our world, including all the forces that may impact it, coincidentally or not.

I guess what I'm saying is I agree forces cause a lot of things to happen. Do you think forces are just there?

Easy, or more justified? I didn't say that the religions people believe in are not based on faith. I said that many people continue to believe in some religions only because it's easier to follow, than to lead. My philosophy would have been easier if I had never questioned Christianity, and just believed what I was taught from birth. It took more effort to question, and attempt to answer those questions on my own without assuming the beliefs of another organization.

That's the difference. I believe that these forces of nature came from somewhere, but not form an intelligent designer. I don't know where they did come from, but I don't see why it would be "God".

 

[Magic Man]

The only way everyone will be satisfied with their arguments being proven correct or wrong is if God exists. If the atheists were correct then when we die we would merely slip into unconciousness and there can be no knowledge without conciousness. One would never know anything. But if God exists then death is not the final word and proof of religions truths will be vindicated. That's another one of the problems I have with atheism. It is the only philosophy that has absolutely no mechanism to prove itself correct. I believe something has to at least have a chance to be proven to the most ardent denyer through some mechanism even if it is not attainable by us in order to have any viability and that is where atheism flunks dramatically.

Wow, I don't even know how to respond to that. That is a very disturbing view of why you believe in Christianity. It's not that atheists, or more correctly people who don't believe in an afterlife, can't be proven right, it's just that there's no one around to realize it. "If a tree falls in the forest..."

And you're still avoiding any arguments I've made.

 

[kdrier]

Easy, or more justified? I didn't say that the religions people believe in are not based on faith. I said that many people continue to believe in some religions only because it's easier to follow, than to lead. My philosophy would have been easier if I had never questioned Christianity, and just believed what I was taught from birth. It took more effort to question, and attempt to answer those questions on my own without assuming the beliefs of another organization.

That's the difference. I believe that these forces of nature came from somewhere, but not form an intelligent designer. I don't know where they did come from, but I don't see why it would be "God".

Easier, because it's more justified. I think that a handful of christians and people who believe in the bible version of "god" are probably brainwashed to the extreme, and are absolute followers. They go the church all the time, watch tv, and take it everything they hear...meanwhile the people preaching their religious propoganda are misinterpreting it (in my opinion). I don't literally believe in the bible, nor the bible version of god.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree, because I feel as though those forces did come from an intelligent designer, that's the only logically explanation I have based on life as I know it. I don't know that for sure, but I have faith.

 

[ravenstrike]

You want proof? If every religion is wrong, then presumably, atheism is correct, yes? Is that a fair assumption? OK, well, religion is, as Freud stated, too obviously borne of mankind's wish to escape death. And let us dissect the three big monotheisms: Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. This'll be long. K:Judaism: Mutilation is wrong. Safe to say? Well, Judaism (and forgive the over-generalization) Promotes the mutilation or removal of a protective skin coating on a young boy's sexual organ. Icky. Also , (and this also pertains to christianity) Why believe in a religion that states that all animal species on earth lived within walking distance of Noah's house? Christianity:Belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own father, and can give us immortality if we symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically acknowledge him as our master, so that he can remove from us the seed of sin, which was put there when a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat off of a magical tree. Yeah, makes perfect sense. Islam:Belief that the koran was dictated to an illiterate merchant. WHAT? That doesn't even make sense. sorry if i offended, it simply had to be said.

 

[Storm]

You want proof? If every religion is wrong, then presumably, atheism is correct, yes? Is that a fair assumption?

Not really. If every religion is wrong then EITHER atheism is correct... or we just haven't figured God out yet.

 

[Magic Man]

Easier, because it's more justified. I think that a handful of christians and people who believe in the bible version of "god" are probably brainwashed to the extreme, and are absolute followers. They go the church all the time, watch tv, and take it everything they hear...meanwhile the people preaching their religious propoganda are misinterpreting it (in my opinion). I don't literally believe in the bible, nor the bible version of god.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree, because I feel as though those forces did come from an intelligent designer, that's the only logically explanation I have based on life as I know it. I don't know that for sure, but I have faith.

But don't you think that you're view of things is more justified? I think mine is, which why I believe what I do. And, I don't just mean the people who are completely brainwashed. There are plenty of intelligent, free-thinking peopl who continue to believe in Christianity because they like to fit in, and it's easier to go through life fitting in than it is to break out on your own. I could dress in all kinds of wacky ways, if I wanted, but then I'd have to deal with the consequences of that, and I'd rather not. However, I feel that breaking away from the traditions of religion is important even though it makes me somewhat of an outsider where I live.

 

[Smoke]

But if God exists then death is not the final word and proof of religions truths will be vindicated. That's another one of the problems I have with atheism. It is the only philosophy that has absolutely no mechanism to prove itself correct. I believe something has to at least have a chance to be proven to the most ardent denyer through some mechanism even if it is not attainable by us in order to have any viability and that is where atheism flunks dramatically.

Atheism is not a philosophy and doesn't have anything to prove. It's just non-belief in a certain kind of belief that has never been proven, or even supported by any evidence.

But I'm completely mystified by your thinking that it's a strength of theism that if it's true you'll get to find that out after you die.

 

[Fluffy]

Heya Michel,

Hi.. If this is true I would say atheism has no authority to try to impose such a criteria on a thinking being whose own criteria for belief is different. Where does this authority come from and who is its judge?

I agree depending on what you mean by impose. I don't think anybody has this sort of authority apart from, perhaps, God and it has clearly decided not to exercise it. However, I don't think that the majority of atheists wish to impose their way of thinking onto anybody although they are happy to discuss and debate their beliefs. I agree that any atheist, or theist for that matter, who attempts to force their beliefs on to others, is in the wrong.

Many people look at the universe and say " Creation exists and based upon the preponderance of evidence and in light of a lack of evidence to the contrary it is fair to assume Creator exists." This is only one of millions of different reasons why so many people believe in God and who is to say their wrong?

Either all positions are equally probable or some are more probable than others. If the first is the case then why believe anything at all? If the second is the case then we might be able to say that their position is wrong. On the other hand, we might be able to say that the opposing position is wrong. Until we investigate that matter, we can't really say either way.

Of course I realize that may not be enough "proof" for some people but here we enter the realm of intellectual freedom and the right to choose and that is irrevocable by another human.

But the intellect is only absolutely free if all positions are equally probable. However, it appears that some positions are more probable than others. For example, the belief that "Unicorns are surrounding me at this very moment" seems more probable than the belief that "Unicorns and Dragons are surrounding me at this very moment". Therefore, it is a matter of debate whether the proof is sufficient to justify the claim. It is not enough to simply choose to believe that it does.

I don't care if someone chooses not to believe provided they understand their own place. The attempt to try to control the criteria for belief is definately human and we all know the potential dubiousness of that.

As long as we understand "their own place" to be of equal standing to every other place then we agree. I haven't yet met an atheist who has admitted that they are superior to theists. I certainly don't believe that. I don't think that any atheist on RF believes that although I could be wrong.

 

[crystalonyx]

The only way everyone will be satisfied with their arguments being proven correct or wrong is if God exists. If the atheists were correct then when we die we would merely slip into unconciousness and there can be no knowledge without conciousness. One would never know anything. But if God exists then death is not the final word and proof of religions truths will be vindicated. That's another one of the problems I have with atheism. It is the only philosophy that has absolutely no mechanism to prove itself correct. I believe something has to at least have a chance to be proven to the most ardent denyer through some mechanism even if it is not attainable by us in order to have any viability and that is where atheism flunks dramatically.

A totally absurd post, like a theist in the afterlife can somehow communicate "proof" of the afterlife back to us poor souls in the here and now.

 

[M O N S T E R]

If the Bible didn't say that God will send believers to heaven, Christians would reject the same quality of evidence they accept now. Why is that? Since they trust the Bible now, they ought to trust it even if the eventual outcome did not promise to reward them with a comfortable eternal life. Christians are not nearly as interested in what the evidence IS as they are interested in what the evidence PROMISES. That is because of their emotional perceived self interest. Christians will only accept an outcome that is favorable to them. The same is true regarding many non-Christian theists.

 

[kdrier]

But don't you think that you're view of things is more justified? I think mine is, which why I believe what I do. And, I don't just mean the people who are completely brainwashed. There are plenty of intelligent, free-thinking peopl who continue to believe in Christianity because they like to fit in, and it's easier to go through life fitting in than it is to break out on your own. I could dress in all kinds of wacky ways, if I wanted, but then I'd have to deal with the consequences of that, and I'd rather not. However, I feel that breaking away from the traditions of religion is important even though it makes me somewhat of an outsider where I live

My view is not justified by anything other than my own thoughts and ideas. Those people are absolute followers, whether it's due to ignorance, or just to fit in. I strongly dislike those who judge people strictly for their religion. Most christians would judge me and think little of me simply because I don't believe in their version of god, and claim that I'm going to hell. Meanwhile I could care less if they believe theres a man underground or in another realm with a pitchfork.