The First Amendment be Damned.

[ADigitalArtist]

I am aware that very few people here think that the Bible should stay in the school.
I am unable to make a case for it staying there either because what is happening is the first amendment is now being interpreted differently than it once was.
I can't fight against interpretation.
I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law.
nuff said.

I'm fine with the bible being in school. In the context of comparative religions or sociology or literature. Not as a religious class. That belongs in a church. Just like a similar class about the Quran, the Torah or Vedas belongs in mosques and temples, not in a public school.

 

[allfoak]

I'm fine with the bible being in school. In the context of comparative religions or sociology or literature. Not as a religious class. That belongs in a church. Just like a similar class about the Quran, the Torah or Vedas belongs in mosques and temples, not in a public school.

now this i can hang my hat on

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am aware that very few people here think that the Bible should stay in the school.
I am unable to make a case for it staying there either because what is happening is the first amendment is now being interpreted differently than it once was.
I can't fight against interpretation.

Theoretically, I'd be okay with a world religions or "Bible as literature" course as an elective, but in practical terms, these sorts of courses lend themselves too much to abuse in the US right now. If the religious and political climate was different, then maybe it would work... but it's not as if any kid would be deprived by not offering a Bible course. There's plenty of other good stuff that isn't getting as much class time as it could, IMO.

I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law.
nuff said.

Then that's your problem. Not only is it a law, but it's part of the highest law in the United States.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

now this i can hang my hat on

That was why this thread was started. The class in the OP was a Christian religious class about the bible. That oversteps the first ammendment by a lot.

 

[YmirGF]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

As long as the course is non-credited!

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I am aware that very few people here think that the Bible should stay in the school.
I am unable to make a case for it staying there either because what is happening is the first amendment is now being interpreted differently than it once was.
I can't fight against interpretation.
I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law.
People should not get their own way just because they get a little offended.
nuff said.

"I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law."

The Constitution is law and always has been.

Constitution
The fundamental law, written or unwritten, that establishes the character of a government by defining the basic principles to which a society must conform; by describing the organization of the government and regulation, distribution, and limitations on the functions of different government departments; and by prescribing the extent and manner of the exercise of its sovereign powers.

constitution

"I can't fight against interpretation."

You could take it up in court, because that is the job of the courts. It is their job to interpret law and it is the job of the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution. And yes, this is affected by public views, always has been and always will be, that is part of their job.

"People should not get their own way just because they get a little offended."

People should not get their own way just because things change and they get offended over change.

Maybe instead of Bible study they should have more focus on studying the Constitution.

 

[omega2xx]

"Some parents in West Virginia are fighting to put an end to a Bible class in public schools.

For nearly 80 years, Bible stories have been taught in Mercer County as part of the regular school week and they’re extremely popular in the community. In a new lawsuit, however, a major lobby for the separation of church and state is arguing that “popular” is not the same as “legal,” reports CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil.

In church, Cherilyn Thomas has built a deep relationship with God. And as a parent, she appreciates that her daughter, Teagan, can continue that relationship at school.

“It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.

The school portion of that circle is provided by a program called “Bible in the Schools.”

“Is it a religious course?” Dokoupil asked.

“It’s the Bible,” Thomas replied.

“Is that a yes?” Dokoupil asked.

Comments like these are part of what attracted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based lobby for the separation of church and state. In a lawsuit filed jointly last month with Jane Doe – a mother of a Mercer County kindergartener who wishes to remain anonymous -- the group accused the county of running “Bible indoctrination classes” that endorse the literal truth of the Bible.

“I would say it is the Bible. It doesn’t teach one religion. It’s not a Baptist Bible, it’s not a Presbyterian Bible; it’s the Bible, and it is God.”

Created by volunteers in 1939, the program now provides more than 4,000 kids a weekly course of Bible study.

In a statement, Mercer County schools said the Bible is worthy of study for its “literary and historic qualities.” The question for the courts is whether it’s actually being taught that way.

“To completely eliminate a Bible course would be an unprecedented and drastic step,” said Hiram Sasser, a lawyer representing the school board. “The only issue it’s ever arises is any kind of implementation.”

Sasser said the school is open to changes to the curriculum if needed to keep the program going. But in its lawsuit, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is not asking for changes; it wants the program to go.

The school board has just a few weeks to respond to the courts to prove that they can effectively keep the program."
source​

THOUGHTS?


.

As a dyed in the wool Bible thumper, I have some reservation about making attending such a class mandatory. While it might work well in a small community, where most are church goers. It would not work well in a more diverse community. It should be taught after school hours as a Bible club activity.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't think it is up to the students. It sounds like it is up to the school or the parents.

With only a single news article to go on, I don't feel we have enough information to make a good determination of that. What needs to be examined is the content of the course. I see no issue at all with a course that focuses on the Bible as a work of cultural, historical, religious, and aesthetic significance. Or a similar course focusing on any other work of literature or topic of philosophy, religion, and living.

 

[allfoak]

"I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law."

The Constitution is law and always has been.



constitution

"I can't fight against interpretation."

You could take it up in court, because that is the job of the courts. It is their job to interpret law and it is the job of the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution. And yes, this is affected by public views, always has been and always will be, that is part of their job.

"People should not get their own way just because they get a little offended."

People should not get their own way just because things change and they get offended over change.

Maybe instead of Bible study they should have more focus on studying the Constitution.

perhaps i was wrong.

 

[Quintessence]

No. Religion is an ideology. If courses covering a specific ideology only is taught in a public school (even if optional) then the state is promoting an ideology over others. One can as well have a class on the the writings of Marx or on the Quran and its recitation and exegesis.

I wouldn't characterize religions as an ideology. But setting that aside, I'm still not seeing the problem. It's important to learn about a wide variety of perspectives, cultures, and traditions. The courses students take in social sciences and humanities do some of that, but learning about world religions gets glossed over. Why? Provided the course content is delivered in such a way that is educational and academic, what's the issue?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

perhaps i was wrong.

Well, Americans as a whole could use a lot more focus on how their government actually works. It is a sore spot in the schools that needs more attention.

I have no problems with Bible studies being taught in private schools, religious schools and in college, but k-12 public schools are for everyone, and not everyone shares the same religious ideologies. Parents should be able to send their kids to school without having to worry that their children are being taught things about God they may not agree with.

 

[Quintessence]

Generally the issue with first ammendment and schools isn't whether or not it's required. A prayer session where students aren't required to participate is still a violation of its teacher run and uses tax payed time and resources. A Bible class gives unequal emphasis to Christian theology. If it was part of an incorporated comparative religions class, that'd be one thing, but this isn't a neutral or inclusive objective overlook, it's a church class where it doesn't belong.

Fair point. I suppose I have never agreed with those sorts of policies. I do not agree with policies that take "separation" to the point of banishment. That's no way to promote pluralism, inclusion, and diversity. Plus, it has the effect of sanctioning what "religion" looks like to narrow field of what religion can be. As a religious minority, perhaps I notice that more. Stuff that gets called "secular" is very religious to me, yet I get a free pass because secular society has put "religion" into a Christian-looking box? It doesn't seem particularly fair. Granted, nobody ever said life was fair.

I guess I don't like the heavy-handed approaches. Retool the course content. Don't banish it entirely.

 

[sayak83]

I wouldn't characterize religions as an ideology. But setting that aside, I'm still not seeing the problem. It's important to learn about a wide variety of perspectives, cultures, and traditions. The courses students take in social sciences and humanities do some of that, but learning about world religions gets glossed over. Why? Provided the course content is delivered in such a way that is educational and academic, what's the issue?

All religions and ideologies should be fairly represented in such a course. If that is done (in actuality, not just pretense) I have no issues. The OP was about a specifically Bible class in school. That is a travesty.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

With only a single news article to go on, I don't feel we have enough information to make a good determination of that. What needs to be examined is the content of the course. I see no issue at all with a course that focuses on the Bible as a work of cultural, historical, religious, and aesthetic significance. Or a similar course focusing on any other work of literature or topic of philosophy, religion, and living.

I think you are under the mistaken impression that children can approach the Bible in the same manner as adults. If you teach the Bible and only the Bible at a public school, that school is endorsing and validating only the Bible. The children will see that as a sign that the Bible is more important than other religious text.

 

[sayak83]

As a dyed in the wool Bible thumper, I have some reservation about making attending such a class mandatory. While it might work well in a small community, where most are church goers. It would not work well in a more diverse community. It should be taught after school hours as a Bible club activity.

Who is going to teach the after-school. Can Hinduism, Islam and atheism be taught as well as an after-school activity?

 

[buddhist]

As long as it's not mandatory, and nothing is paid for by the taxpayers, I'm good with it.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Who is going to teach the after-school. Can Hinduism, Islam and atheism be taught as well as an after-school activity?

I would love to hear the out roar because a school is teaching The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. People all over would freak out.

 

[allfoak]

With only a single news article to go on, I don't feel we have enough information to make a good determination of that. What needs to be examined is the content of the course. I see no issue at all with a course that focuses on the Bible as a work of cultural, historical, religious, and aesthetic significance. Or a similar course focusing on any other work of literature or topic of philosophy, religion, and living.

It seems as if the content of the course has not yet been fully revealed.
The school made a statement that included this quote:
"The Bible is worthy of study for it's literary and historical value".
It has yet to be determined whether or nt that is what is being taught.
The school said they were open to making changes.
That seems to be all that is known at this point.

Now.
I am out of this discussion.
It has come to my attention that i am not able to have this discussion without getting emotionally involved.
It is best i leave it alone for now.

 

[Quintessence]

All religions and ideologies should be fairly represented in such a course. If that is done (in actuality, not just pretense) I have no issues. The OP was about a specifically Bible class in school. That is a travesty.

I'd want to know more about what the class entails before making a judgement call. Content, content, content.

I think you are under the mistaken impression that children can approach the Bible in the same manner as adults. If you teach the Bible and only the Bible at a public school, that school is endorsing and validating only the Bible. The children will see that as a sign the Bible is more important than other religious text.

That sounds like an assessment an adult would make. I'm not convinced this is how children would see it at all. I can't say I saw things that way as a kid. Show me some research demonstrating your hypothesis to be the case, though, and I'm game. It would be a challenging research project, but maybe someone has done it.

And let's be honest here - with respect to Western cultural history, the Bible is more important. It has been a defining element of Western culture for centuries. As a non-Abrahamic, this drives me nuts, but it is what it is.

 

[allfoak]

Well, Americans as a whole could use a lot more focus on how their government actually works. It is a sore spot in the schools that needs more attention.

I have no problems with Bible studies being taught in private schools, religious schools and in college, but k-12 public schools are for everyone, and not everyone shares the same religious ideologies. Parents should be able to send their kids to school without having to worry that their children are being taught things about God they may not agree with.

Last post on this subject for me.
I am very upset over the condition of our schools and the condition of our young people in this country.
It is something that is very difficult for me to talk about.
I feel like i failed my son sending him to public school.
That makes the issue very personal for me.