The First Amendment be Damned.

[omega2xx]

I'm an atheist, and yet I have read the Bible completely through more than once. I own several, and still refer to them from time to time -- as I do to my Homer (Iliad and Odyssey), Virgil (Aeneas), Dante (Divine Comedy), Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird), Shakespeare (too many titles to list) and Doctorow (Ragtime) among many, many other cherished favourites. If anybody truly wishes to know who we (humanity) are, then they must read what we collectively has thought and written.

I have no difficulty with that -- if an English high school class can learn Harper Lee or E.L. Doctorow, then they can learn the Bible. And -- with this one caveat, that it is expressly called "Literature" -- the Upanishads and the Bible. (Cant' get through Upanishads myself -- they bore me -- but love the Epic of Gilgamesh, in which Noah, under the name of Utnapushtim, appears.)

See? Learning is a good thing -- even learning what people believe. Just so long as you are learning and not being indoctrinated. In any case, for those kids taught Bible inerrancy or literalism at home, you won't get them to believe it's fiction anyway -- too late for them. But even so, so what? As long as you teach that these are "stories," that they are "our stories," I say go for it.

The good thing is that it is not to late for those who have been taught or have come to believe the stores are not true, still have some time, it they have an open mind.

Telling children the stories in the Bible are not true, is like telling them Santa Clause is real.

 

[omega2xx]

Why in the school?

The kids are already there.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The kids are already there.

But the kids - the Christian ones, anyhow - are already in church, too.

 

[omega2xx]

But the kids - the Christian ones, anyhow - are already in church, too.

Some kids who are not in a church may want to see what Christianity is all about.

My church sponsors an after school, Good News Club at a nearby school. Some of the kids who come to it do not go to church. Any of these kids who want to can come to our church on Wednesday evening and get a free meal.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some kids who are not in a church may want to see what Christianity is all about.

My church sponsors an after school, Good News Club at a nearby school. Some of the kids who come to it do not go to church. Any of these kids who want to can come to our church on Wednesday evening and get a free meal.

You're talking about proselytizing. That's why you want to be in public schools.

This is completely inappropriate. The government shouldn't be subsidizing or endorsing your evangelism.

Edit: is there any reason why a kid who's interested in Christianity can't just go to your church of their own accord without involving the school at all?

 

[omega2xx]

You're talking about proselytizing. That's why you want to be in public schools.

This is completely inappropriate. The government shouldn't be subsidizing or endorsing your evangelism.

What is it about AFTER SCHOOL and voluntary and CHURCH SPONSORED that you don't understand?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is it about AFTER SCHOOL and voluntary and CHURCH SPONSORED that you don't understand?

I understand both of those fine. After-school, voluntary SCHOOL clubs are still approved and sanctioned by the SCHOOL. Kids may not be forced to attend, but this doesn't mean that a PUBLIC school isn't putting its stamp of approval on your church's marketing efforts.

And exactly what do you mean by "sponsored"? Are you just providing materials, or do you pay a rental fee for the classroom space?

At my local school board, they have a bunch of different rental rates depending on the nature of the activity: there's the "full cost" rate - which is quite expensive - and then there are a range of subsidized rates for different types of not-for-profits and charities. School activities pay nothing.

What rate does your church pay to the school for the "Good News Club"?

 

[omega2xx]

I understand both of those fine. After-school, voluntary SCHOOL clubs are still approved and sanctioned by the SCHOOL. Kids may not be forced to attend, but this doesn't mean that a PUBLIC school isn't putting its stamp of approval on your church's marketing efforts.

Not true. Originally these clubs were not allowed, but the courts said if they can have a camera club or any type of after school club, they could not refuse having a Bible club.

And exactly what do you mean by "sponsored"? Are you just providing materials, or do you pay a rental fee for the classroom space?

No rental fee. The other clubs do not pay a rental fee. We just supply the personnel and materials, free.

At my local school board, they have a bunch of different rental rates depending on the nature of the activity: there's the "full cost" rate - which is quite expensive - and then there are a range of subsidized rates for different types of not-for-profits and charities. School activities pay nothing.

Where I live, if a group want to start a church and meet in a school until the get a building, there is a charge. I have no idea what th charger is.

What rate does your church pay to the school for the "Good News Club"?

WE don't pay anything. If their is no charge for other clubs, they can't charge for any club.

 

[metis]

Not "church sponsored" because now we'd be violating "church & state". If it is open to any and all denominations, and not sponsored by any, then that would avoid the constitutional issue.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My high school had a world religions course - an actual one, not a "how every religion but Christianity is wrong" course - and it worked fine.

We also had a Christian club and a Muslim club alongside all the other school clubs. Those worked fine, too. No evangelism, just a place for the school's Christians to socialize and do fun activities... and since they all went to different churches (my high school drew students from a large area), fair enough.

I think this sort of arrangement is fine as a goal to work toward, but I don't think that most of the US is ready for it yet. There's too much potential for abuse... as the article in the OP and @omega2xx have demonstrated.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not true. Originally these clubs were not allowed, but the courts said if they can have a camera club or any type of after school club, they could not refuse having a Bible club.

All official school clubs are sanctioned by the school. You're speaking to whether this sanction is legal, which is a different matter.

And from the way you've described it so far, it sounds like it's an evangelism effort, not a "Bible club". You admitted yourself that the whole reason you wanted to meet in school instead of your church is because you want to reach non-Christians.

No rental fee. The other clubs do not pay a rental fee. We just supply the personnel and materials, free.

Wait... so there are representatives of your church actually in the school running this club? This just gets worse and worse.

Edit: please tell me that at the very least, your "personnel" have to do criminal background checks.

So there's no fee, and your group is treated like - and subsidized like - any other school-sanctioned club?

Where I live, if a group want to start a church and meet in a school until the get a building, there is a charge. I have no idea what th charger is.



WE don't pay anything. If their is no charge for other clubs, they can't charge for any club.

Because school-sanctioned official clubs don't get charged. Ergo, your club - and its evangelism activities - is being sanctioned by a public school.

Do you really not see the problem here?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

9-10s Penguin brought up a very large concern, and that is that students who opt out will become potential targets for bullying and harassment. Also tax payer money should not be going towards funding religious programs as religion is of a personal nature rather than a public issue.

I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

And my, do consider how far along we've advanced morally and ethically that we are seeing this as the problem it is, which is promoting a specific religion over others and marginalizing those who believe otherwise.

 

[David1967]

In our multicultural society, I could go along with this idea.

Let me add to this comment. I think it would actually be useful if given as a Comparative religion class. In (as I stated above) our multi cultural / multi religion society, it would be useful IMO for our children to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of different religions and there beliefs. Not for the purpose of indoctrination, but that through such a class they may come to see those of different faiths as human beings no different than themselves and show them respect accordingly.

 

[omega2xx]

All official school clubs are sanctioned by the school. You're speaking to whether this sanction is legal, which is a different matter.

They are allowed but not sanctioned.

And from the way you've described it so far, it sounds like it's an evangelism effort, not a "Bible club".

I didn't describe what it did, You just want to find fault with it because you don't like the idea.

You admitted yourself that the whole reason you wanted to meet in school instead of your church is because you want to reach non-Christians.

I did not, I said because the kids were already there and wouldn't have to travel anywhere. Another false comment because you dislike the idea.

Wait... so there are representatives of your church actually in the school running this club? This just gets worse and worse.

Only to the narrow minded, who dislike the idea.

Edit: please tell me that at the very least, your "personnel" have to do criminal background checks.

No.

So there's no fee, and your group is treated like - and subsidized like - any other school-sanctioned club?

After school clubs are not subsidized.

Because school-sanctioned official clubs don't get charged. Ergo, your club - and its evangelism activities - is being sanctioned by a public school.

Keep; trying, you continue to look bigoted.

Do you really not see the problem here?

Do you really not understand what I have been saying?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are allowed but not sanctioned.

You said that outside groups have to pay a fee and that official school clubs get the space for free. It's an official school club.

I didn't describe what it did, You just want to find fault with it because you don't like the idea.

So it doesn't engage in evangelism?

A program overseen by the Child Evangelism Fellowship doesn't engage in evangelism? Is that really your position?

I did not, I said because the kids were already there and wouldn't have to travel anywhere. Another false comment because you dislike the idea.

So your club does not do any sort of outreach to non-Christians?

Only to the narrow minded, who dislike the idea.

... or people who think that religious freedom and religious equality are good ideas.

No.

Do volunteers for other school clubs have to go through background checks?

I've volunteered for schools and youth-related programs for more than a decade and I always had to do a background check before I could work with kids.

If this school doesn't require any voluteers to do background checks, then the Good News Club wouldn't be getting special treatment (in this regard, anyhow), but it raises a whole other set of concerns about the school.

After school clubs are not subsidized.

If you get classroom space for free, you're subsidized.

 

[McBell]

nuff said.

I completely disagree.
Not nearly enough is being said.
And even less is being heard.

What is the reason for the lawsuit?
Why did the parent anonymously file?
Because her child is being bullied in school over it.
So no, there is NOT enough being said.

 

[roger1440]

I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

At times in the United States there had been people who went against the status quo.