The First Amendment be Damned.

[Altfish]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.
I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

Using the Bible to illustrate the English language is fine.
If you are a Muslim, an atheist, a Jew or of any non-Christian religion why should you have to put up with someone else's belief?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

As a dyed in the wool Bible thumper, I have some reservation about making attending such a class mandatory. While it might work well in a small community, where most are church goers. It would not work well in a more diverse community. It should be taught after school hours as a Bible club activity.

"It should be taught after school hours as a Bible club activity."

I would have no problem with that, personally. As long as attendance is not pushed in the school any more than any other club, and there is no tie whatsoever to judging academic performance, beyond the fact they participated in after school activities.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Using the Bible to illustrate the English language is fine.
If you are a Muslim, an atheist, a Jew or of any non-Christian religion why should you have to put up with someone else's belief?

"Using the Bible to illustrate the English language is fine."

No it is not; it is translated, incredibly old and very often vague and ambiguous. It is a horrible way to illustrate the English language, and there is other literature out there that would do a much better at illustrating the English language. People should not be using the Bible to learn how to write effectively. Maybe some of the verses might be good for poetic writing, but it is not very good for learning how to write proper prose.

 

[David1967]

Meanwhile on the other side of the country;

Portland OKs "After School Satan" for elementary kids - CBS News

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Meanwhile on the other side of the country;

Portland OKs "After School Satan" for elementary kids - CBS News

Seems fair to me.

 

[Skwim]

The Bible was standard fair in schools not that long ago.
It is great for teaching literature.

What's so great about it for teaching literature?

I have seen old textbooks with plenty of Bible verses in them.
I took a quick look to see if i could find an example but struck out.
I assure you that the people in the U.S. didn't give a damn about the Bible being used in school just a few generations ago.

Gotta ask, so what?


.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

With only a single news article to go on, I don't feel we have enough information to make a good determination of that. What needs to be examined is the content of the course. I see no issue at all with a course that focuses on the Bible as a work of cultural, historical, religious, and aesthetic significance. Or a similar course focusing on any other work of literature or topic of philosophy, religion, and living.

I have a problem with it. Now what?

These are Kindergardners. The mom who claimplained has a 5 year old in that school.

Cultural, historical, and literary significance?

 

[sayak83]

"Using the Bible to illustrate the English language is fine."

No it is not; it is translated, incredibly old and very often vague and ambiguous. It is a horrible way to illustrate the English language, and there is other literature out there that would do a much better at illustrating the English language. People should not be using the Bible to learn how to write effectively. Maybe some of the verses might be good for poetic writing, but it is not very good for learning how to write proper prose.

I agree. The quality of literature is moderate to terrible. Lord of the Rings is better..and we have Shakespeare of course.

 

[Quintessence]

I have a problem with it. Now what?

I don't know. Do you live there? If so, then speak your voice and do what you want to do. Otherwise, all of us are just backseat drivers who aren't going to have much say or impact on this case one way or another. I know what I would do, were such a situation to impact me. But it doesn't, so... meh.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

With only a single news article to go on, I don't feel we have enough information to make a good determination of that. What needs to be examined is the content of the course. I see no issue at all with a course that focuses on the Bible as a work of cultural, historical, religious, and aesthetic significance. Or a similar course focusing on any other work of literature or topic of philosophy, religion, and living.

I do, but for more practical reasons like time, personel and budget are strict enough in k-12 that no single book should have its own class. I wouldn't even agree with a Shakespherean class at grade schools for the same reason, even though the material, from literature and history, could cover a multitude of classes.
At college level, sure. Although...

Fair point. I suppose I have never agreed with those sorts of policies. I do not agree with policies that take "separation" to the point of banishment. That's no way to promote pluralism, inclusion, and diversity. Plus, it has the effect of sanctioning what "religion" looks like to narrow field of what religion can be. As a religious minority, perhaps I notice that more. Stuff that gets called "secular" is very religious to me, yet I get a free pass because secular society has put "religion" into a Christian-looking box? It doesn't seem particularly fair. Granted, nobody ever said life was fair.

I guess I don't like the heavy-handed approaches. Retool the course content. Don't banish it entirely.

I mentioned before that I am a-okay with a comparative religions class, as it is by its nature more inclusive, neutral, and an overview level more suited to grade school (which is an overview of everything.)
I do not believe eliminating this class in particular is banishment, or overstepping secularism. This class, as its described, just belongs in a church, not a public school.

 

[Shad]

"Some parents in West Virginia are fighting to put an end to a Bible class in public schools.

For nearly 80 years, Bible stories have been taught in Mercer County as part of the regular school week and they’re extremely popular in the community. In a new lawsuit, however, a major lobby for the separation of church and state is arguing that “popular” is not the same as “legal,” reports CBS News correspondent Tony Dokoupil.

In church, Cherilyn Thomas has built a deep relationship with God. And as a parent, she appreciates that her daughter, Teagan, can continue that relationship at school.

“It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.

The school portion of that circle is provided by a program called “Bible in the Schools.”

“Is it a religious course?” Dokoupil asked.

“It’s the Bible,” Thomas replied.

“Is that a yes?” Dokoupil asked.

Comments like these are part of what attracted the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Wisconsin-based lobby for the separation of church and state. In a lawsuit filed jointly last month with Jane Doe – a mother of a Mercer County kindergartener who wishes to remain anonymous -- the group accused the county of running “Bible indoctrination classes” that endorse the literal truth of the Bible.

“I would say it is the Bible. It doesn’t teach one religion. It’s not a Baptist Bible, it’s not a Presbyterian Bible; it’s the Bible, and it is God.”

Created by volunteers in 1939, the program now provides more than 4,000 kids a weekly course of Bible study.

In a statement, Mercer County schools said the Bible is worthy of study for its “literary and historic qualities.” The question for the courts is whether it’s actually being taught that way.

“To completely eliminate a Bible course would be an unprecedented and drastic step,” said Hiram Sasser, a lawyer representing the school board. “The only issue it’s ever arises is any kind of implementation.”

Sasser said the school is open to changes to the curriculum if needed to keep the program going. But in its lawsuit, the Freedom From Religion Foundation is not asking for changes; it wants the program to go.

The school board has just a few weeks to respond to the courts to prove that they can effectively keep the program."
source​

THOUGHTS?


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The same thoughts when it was removed in school. Which version? Which translation? Which interpretation? Why bother? It was being removed for decades on the local level. Ironically by Protestants which put it in the system in the first place when an area become dominated by Catholics. When their own stupid idea turned in their hands they cried foul like the good Protestants they are.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I don't know. Do you live there? If so, then speak your voice and do what you want to do. Otherwise, all of us are just backseat drivers who aren't going to have much say or impact on this case one way or another. I know what I would do, were such a situation to impact me. But it doesn't, so... meh.

Gosh, we should just delete the whole thread instead of talking about it then!

Of course, deleting every esoteric thread that doesn't directly involve us and our own lives would severely limit conversation around here, wouldn't it?

 

[Nietzsche]

As a dyed in the wool Bible thumper, I have some reservation about making attending such a class mandatory. While it might work well in a small community, where most are church goers. It would not work well in a more diverse community. It should be taught after school hours as a Bible club activity.

This is the correct response. After-hours, it isn't on the taxpayer dime, and you can do whatever you want. But to bring it in during actual school time? No. A million times, no. The validity of Christianity isn't a topic for the education of children, that's a private matter to be dealt with on your own time.

 

[Scott C.]

"Some parents in West Virginia are fighting to put an end to a Bible class in public schools. ​

The LDS Church has what is called Seminary for 9-12th graders. Outside of Utah (for the most part) this class is taught early in the morning at a church or at the teacher's home before High School starts. The teachers are unpaid professionals. It has nothing to do with High School. In Utah, Seminary used to be part of High School curriculum. The classes were taught by professionals in our church education system. Students could receive high school credit and the classes were optional. Then many years ago, someone objected and the courts forced a change. Seminary could no longer be part of the High School. But students are allowed "release time" to attend Seminary during the school day. They can leave the High School and go across the street to a Seminary Building which is owned by the LDS Church. They participate in the seminary course. There is no High School credit and it's not part of the High School. Students who don't use this "release time" hour, simply take a normal High School course and I believe tend to get their high school credits a little faster. Even though Seminary is separate from High School and all the school does is simply allow students to leave campus for a non-high school activity (e.g., Seminary) some people are still not happy. They want to disallow release time Seminary and seem bent on stopping the religious education of high school age students at all. I see no reason for this objection.

I can see why teaching a specific religion's doctrine at school can feel like government endorsement of a specific religion. But the efforts to stop LDS Seminary, now that it's separated from the High School, crosses the line from "removing the appearance of the school system teaching a particular faith" to "stopping the LDS Church from educating it's youth on a daily basis during the school week."

Given this situation in Utah, I'm surprised that there are Bible classes in High School elsewhere, at least to the extent that they teach doctrine. Although when I was in High School in Southern CA in the '70's, I once took a course called "The Bible as Literature". We discussed Biblical stories. I know the teacher was a believing Christian but as I recall this was not a religious course at all. It was simply education on the Bible. I see no problem with that type of course.​

 

[Skwim]

Why? Unless it's required of students, I don't see the problem. Students who want to take it can take it. Students who don't want to take it don't take it.

The problem is that public schools are not allowed to teach a religion, whether it's an elective or not.

Meanwhile on the other side of the country;

Portland OKs "After School Satan" for elementary kids - CBS News

The Satanic Temple is seeking to place its newly created after-school program called "After School Satan" in places of education across the country, and a Los Angeles-area elementary school is one of its early targets.

The Satanic Temple this weekend unveiled plans for a network of after-school programs that focus not on worship of the Devil, but "critical reasoning, independent-thinking, fun, and free thought," according to the Satanic Temple's website.
source​

"I still see the first amendment as a guide not a law."

The Constitution is law and always has been.

constitution

"I can't fight against interpretation."

You could take it up in court, because that is the job of the courts. It is their job to interpret law and it is the job of the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution. And yes, this is affected by public views, always has been and always will be, that is part of their job.

"People should not get their own way just because they get a little offended."

People should not get their own way just because things change and they get offended over change.

Maybe instead of Bible study they should have more focus on studying the Constitution.

Then I pity your lack of education.

As long as it's not mandatory, and nothing is paid for by the taxpayers, I'm good with it.

Who do you think pays for the school building and its maintenance? THE TAXPAYERS.

I'd want to know more about what the class entails before making a judgement call. Content, content, content.

It seems as if the content of the course has not yet been fully revealed.
The school made a statement that included this quote:

I think enough of it has. From the article:

"In church, Cherilyn Thomas has built a deep relationship with God. And as a parent, she appreciates that her daughter, Teagan, can continue that relationship at school."

"It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.​

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Then I pity your lack of education.

Looking for a cookie?

Honesty, after reviewing a number of your posts I have learned not to put too much stock in your opinions.

 

[Skwim]

Given this situation in Utah, I'm surprised that there are Bible classes in High School elsewhere, at least to the extent that they teach doctrine.

They exist because some people don't care about the First Amendment, and prefer to have their religious beliefs taught and promulgated in public schools rather than follow the law. Nice example for their kids, isn't it.


.

 

[Skwim]

Looking for a cookie?

Honesty, after reviewing a number of your post I have learned not to put too much stock in your opinions.

I'm flattered you took the time to do such a review. I don't think anyone else here would, so thank you.


.

 

[allfoak]

I think enough of it has. From the article:

 

[pearl]

“It is very important that what we teach at home can be moved on to the school and instilled there and moved to the church and it’s still there so that it moves in a circle,” Thomas said.

Assuming this is a public school, are there students who are not Christian, who are Jewish or Muslim or Hindu of other? I can understand that it is much easier for the parent to indoctrinate their child if this indoctrination is carried out in the school also, and kids aren't faced with alternative beliefs that may in turn challenge the parent.

the Bible is worthy of study for its “literary and historic qualities.”

This would certainly be true for higher grades, but I doubt it would be presented with the differing scholastic opinions concerning the literary genius or embellished history of the Bible. It would all come down to one interpretation, that of the teacher.