The FLOOD, God's Great Failure?

[Upaava]

I only post the following in light of the contention that god is infallible and can do no wrong..

May peace be with you,
There is meaning in this story that pertains to those living in this age. Biblical stories are filled with symbol and metaphor. Noah's family is symbolic of all people who faithfully followed the commandments and covenants given to us by our creator. Only those who were lost in greed, selfishness and the flesh were removed from their earthly lives.

Then, as now, we've been given free will to choose how to live-- to faithfully follow our creator, or live for ourselves. The consequences we thus receive are of our own making, not God's. We have received directions and warnings, but some choose to ignore them and ultimately receive the consequences of those choices. God is not only Love, but also Law.

The message to us today is to live lovingly and unselfishly following the ways God asks of us, so we may be counted among those saved when the next purification arises:

(Rev. 11:18) “...The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth...”

(Psalm 24:1) “...The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein...”

 

[Skwim]

May peace be with you,
There is meaning in this story that pertains to those living in this age. Biblical stories are filled with symbol and metaphor. Noah's family is symbolic of all people who faithfully followed the commandments and covenants given to us by our creator. Only those who were lost in greed, selfishness and the flesh were removed from their earthly lives.

Then, as now, we've been given free will to choose how to live-- to faithfully follow our creator, or live for ourselves.

Just so you're aware, I don't buy into the notion of free will.

The consequences we thus receive are of our own making, not God's. We have received directions and warnings, but some choose to ignore them and ultimately receive the consequences of those choices. God is not only Love, but also Law.

The message to us today is to live lovingly and unselfishly following the ways God asks of us, so we may be counted among those saved when the next purification arises:

(Rev. 11:18) “...The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth...”

(Psalm 24:1) “...The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein...”

So, you take a mythological story of old and use its fiction as some kind of message from god on how to behave and why? Interesting.

.

 

[MJFlores]

I only post the following in light of the contention that god is infallible and can do no wrong.
Now if anyone sees the flood as a success please point it out.

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The flood is just a preview, a sample, just another event of many events.
Was it successful?
You betcha. Let us check the bible:

2 Peter 2:4-9 New International Version (NIV)

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Told you God made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
What will happen next on the day of judgment? Now this is the mother of all events.

2 Peter 3:7-12 New International Version (NIV)

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

After that no one would question - was this successful? Now in the verses above it was written - Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Just joined yesterday. I hope you like the video.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

And I had fried chicken for dinner last night.

Ok, your turn.

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[Skwim]

The flood is just a preview, a sample, just another event of many events.
Was it successful?
You betcha. Let us check the bible:

2 Peter 2:4-9 New International Version (NIV)

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Told you God made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.
What will happen next on the day of judgment? Now this is the mother of all events.

2 Peter 3:7-12 New International Version (NIV)

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

After that no one would question - was this successful? Now in the verses above it was written - Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Just joined yesterday. I hope you like the video.

Nah. Much as it may rankle you, god is quite clear about why he created the flood.

Genesis 6:5-7 (ISV)
God Decides to Destroy the World
5 The Lord saw that human evil was growing more and more throughout the earth, with every inclination of people’s thoughts[o] becoming only evil on a continuous basis. 6 Then the Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and he was deeply grieved about that. 7 So the Lord said, “I will annihilate these human beings whom I’ve created from the[q] earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I’m grieving that I made them.”
​

Anything else is tap dancing.

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[It Aint Necessarily So]

The flood was not Gods failure, it was the failure of humanity.

All failures are the fault of an omniscient, omnipotent creator if one exists. With those two qualities comes omni-responsibility.

 

[shmogie]

All failures are the fault of an omniscient, omnipotent creator if one exists. With those two qualities comes omni-responsibility.

With respect, that is nonsense. First, God isn't omniscient, He doesn't know what will happen before it does, unless he uses His omnipotence to bring it about. Second, beings with free will who know the parameters of their choices, are totally responsible for those choices. To blame God for what a free moral agent does is just another of a long litany of humans squawking, "It's not my fault because.........................................." There are no excuses if you make a knowledgeable choice, and choose poorly.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

With respect, that is nonsense. First, God isn't omniscient, He doesn't know what will happen before it does, unless he uses His omnipotence to bring it about. Second, beings with free will who know the parameters of their choices, are totally responsible for those choices. To blame God for what a free moral agent does is just another of a long litany of humans squawking, "It's not my fault because.........................................." There are no excuses if you make a knowledgeable choice, and choose poorly.

My words were that, "All failures are the fault of an omniscient, omnipotent creator if one exists. With those two qualities comes omni-responsibility."

You don't seem to be talking about what I was. I referred to an omniscient, omnipotent god. If your god is not those things, it is less responsible than the Christian god, which we are told knows all and can do all.

 

[MJFlores]

Nah. Much as it may rankle you, god is quite clear about why he created the flood.

Genesis 6:5-7 (ISV)
God Decides to Destroy the World
5 The Lord saw that human evil was growing more and more throughout the earth, with every inclination of people’s thoughts[o] becoming only evil on a continuous basis. 6 Then the Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and he was deeply grieved about that. 7 So the Lord said, “I will annihilate these human beings whom I’ve created from the[q] earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I’m grieving that I made them.”
​

Anything else is tap dancing.

.

What is the question?

Before it was by water and now it through fire.
Surely there will be tap dancing on the fire (if it is possible)

Matthew 13:40 New International Version (NIV)

“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

 

[shmogie]

My words were that, "All failures are the fault of an omniscient, omnipotent creator if one exists. With those two qualities comes omni-responsibility."

You don't seem to be talking about what I was. I referred to an omniscient, omnipotent god. If your god is not those things, it is less responsible than the Christian god, which we are told knows all and can do all.

My God IS the Christian God. The theological principle is " the open view of God ". As You have deduced, and omniscient God creates predestination, which eliminates free will, which creates God knowingly creating evil. So, I would say that what you have been told is, in fact wrong. People have misunderstood and mis interpreted scripture for centuries to bolster the concept of God being omniscient. I will say that this is very controversial, and the theologians who adhere to the open view must rigorously defend it. After extensive study, I believe they are right.

 

[MJFlores]

That's it? The thread is all about the omnipotence of God?
Of course God knows everything

Psalm 139:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Does God know that after the flood, people will be back in their old evil ways - ABSOLUTELY

That is why it is not gonna be water anymore, it is going to be FIRE

Who da ya think the universe was created for? Is it for the Trump? For the GOP? For the US of A? For you and me? Let us check the bible to find out:

Colossians 1:16 New International Version (NIV)

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

God will destroy everything by fire - WHY?
To pave way for New things.

Revelation 21:1-8 New International Version (NIV)

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The flood eh? You've seen just an example and you ain't seen nothing yet

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yes, thank you so much for your patience and suggestions. I have to say, it is difficult on my chrome book to follow. I apologize for my lack of tech knowledge. now, to your question:
I feel that the people who were drowned in the flood had been judged by God as incorrigible. And the hybrid giants had to be removed from the earth. If God had left things alone much longer, there would have been NO persons obeying God on earth. And Satan would have won His challenge to be ruler over the earth. God saved the 8 souls who were loyal to Him and obedient, and by putting them aboard the ark (which they built, btw) the Creator did not allow Satan to destroy all of mankind.
The world today is ruined also.

Is your world ruined? Mine isn't. Mine is quite beautiful, comfortable, and stimulating. I understand that there is a lot of luck involved, and that many lives are full of suffering. But that doesn't describe the world, just a part of it. And humanism is working to ameliorate those. We promote education, peace, tolerance, public sanitation, human rights, scientific research, access to health care and the like.

And we do it in the face of competing ideologies that oppose many of those ideas.

The point is that the world is not all bad, and many are working to make it better. That has been the case since the Enlightenment. Life is much better for most people now than then, even most of those who have a hard life. Even in poor Asian nations like Vietnam, they're getting around on scooters, for example.

It's Christian theology that offers such a dark picture of the world.

It is only a very short matter of time, in my opinion, when a similar situation will present itself, and God will step in and completely destroy all ungodly men AND all evil demon spirit creatures, including Satan, will be thrown into the abyss of inactivity, the death condition. So they will not be able to mislead and misguide the people who survive the Holy War of God (Rev. 16:14, 16) and also the ones who will then be resurrected from the death state, and restored to perfect life on earth, if they choose to obey God.

Don't you think that we could have used that when Satan was thrown out of heaven? Rather than being destroyed or contained in a supernatural space like hell, God let him loose on earth.

That wasn't very nice.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Hi, Skwim
My response:
There is not much difference in attitude between before the flood and after the flood. The ability of mankind has to judge between good and evil has not and will not change.
What has happened, that does affect the difference between before the flood and after the flood is the ark.
The ark is a picture of humanity becoming lost due to the nature of being intelligently enabled, or in layman's terms, in the image of God.

God is said to be sinless. We are not. In what sense are we made in the image of God? We have so little in common with Him. We have more in common with the beasts. Like them and unlike God, we are material, mortal, make mistakes, have limited knowledge and power, get hungry, get sick, feel pain, die, etc..

The regret is not in the making of mankind gone amok but rather the sacrifice that God has to make in order to redeem that which became lost.

Why would God have to make a sacrifice for us? Or if He did, why didn't we all benefit from it. It appears that you have to somehow figure out that the story is true in the face of an awful lot of evidence that it isn't.

What became of all of the souls that lived after the flood but before the crucifixion of Christ? They never accepted that idea. Does that mean that they have to go to hell, or that God can somehow forgive sin without one believing in the crucifixion and resurrection? If He could do that then, why not now?

God, in the hands of mankind, has to condemn His only Son for the redemption of the human race. Evident by the Fathers turning His face away from His Sons's agony at the cross with the words of Jesus... "Father...why has thou forsaken me". Jesus must suffer in order that the creation can be saved.

I still don't see the connection between my sins and a blood sacrifice. How does one affect the other, especially if you have to believe as well? If Christian theology is correct, the crucifixion will have done nothing for me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In fact if you started generating random strings of numbers and took the average of the sums of the first 144 digits, the more random strings you generate, the closer to 666 the average gets, actually know a mathematician who wrote a program to check

Are you sure?

I'd say that if you generated a million strings of 144 random digits and took the average of the sum of those digits, it would be closer to 648. The average of the ten digits (0-9) is 4.5: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)/10 = 4.5.

144 x 4.5 = 648.

 

[shmogie]

That's it? The thread is all about the omnipotence of God?
Of course God knows everything

Psalm 139:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

Does God know that after the flood, people will be back in their old evil ways - ABSOLUTELY

That is why it is not gonna be water anymore, it is going to be FIRE

Who da ya think the universe was created for? Is it for the Trump? For the GOP? For the US of A? For you and me? Let us check the bible to find out:

Colossians 1:16 New International Version (NIV)

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

God will destroy everything by fire - WHY?
To pave way for New things.

Revelation 21:1-8 New International Version (NIV)

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The flood eh? You've seen just an example and you ain't seen nothing yet

 

[Ekleipsis]

Are you sure?

I'd say that if you generated a million strings of 144 random digits and took the average of the sum of those digits, it would be closer to 648. The average of the ten digits (0-9) is 4.5: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9)/10 = 4.5.

114 x 4.5 = 648.

Hmmm, valid points, I'd ask the man who made the claim but he appears to have closed his old website

btw, that's 144*4.5, not 114*4.5

114*4.5 = 513

 

[shmogie]

Nothing you posted has anything to do with omnipotence. If God knows everything beforehand, then he knowingly created evil, No. If God knew a million years before I was born whether I would be saved or lost, then why worry about it, no matter what I do or don't do,, it will turn out exactly as God saw it a million yeas ago.

 

[shmogie]

God is sinless. We are not. In what sense are we made in the image of God? We have so little in common with Him. We have more in common with the beasts. Like them and unlike God, we are material, mortal, make mistakes, have limited knowledge and power, get hungry, get sick, feel pain, die, etc..



Why would God have to make a sacrifice for us? Or if He did, why didn't we all benefit from it. It appears that you have to somehow figure out that the story is true in the face of an awful lot of evidence that it isn't.

What became of all of the souls that lived after the flood but before the crucifixion of Christ? They never accepted that idea. Does that mean that they have to go to hell, or that God can somehow forgive sin without one believing in the crucifixion and resurrection? If He could do that then, why not now?



I still don't see the connection between my sins and a blood sacrifice. How does one affect the other, especially if you have to believe as well? If Christian theology is correct, the crucifixion will have done nothing for me.

Humans were as originally created sinless. We still retain the image of God in our ability to reason, and make choices based upon that reason. God is perfect justice, perfect mercy. When humanity rebelled, justice required the penalty assured before the rebellion, death. However, in mercy, God provided a system of atonement (remember the sacrifices of Cain and Abel ?) Blood was spilled from the beginning, pointing forward to Christs final sacrifice,. With the Jews the sacrificial system was refined and specific laws were given, but none were the perfect sacrifice, They were temporary and had to be repeated, but they all pointed forward. This system and it's laws were eliminated when Christ (Paul called him the second Adam) a sinless human (as Adam was originally) lived a perfect life, which was required, and died the death required for all humans, the perfect sacrifice, and these were imputed to those that believe. God is perfectly just, Christ's death met the standard of punishment. Christ's life meets the standard of perfection for us, perfectly merciful. One can benefit from this by choosing to do so, God would never compromise your free will, your right to choose, by compelling you to live when you choose to die ( the ultimate, final death, oblivion ). As to the souls before the crucifixion, they were participating in a symbolic pre acceptance of the results of the Crucifixion, which was adequate. As to the millions who have never known about God through history, he is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, and how he deals with them I can only surmise it will be just and merciful.

 

[Skwim]

That's it? The thread is all about the omnipotence of God?
Of course God knows everything

Err. . . knowing everything is "omniscience." Omnipotence is being all powerful---able to do anything. BIG difference.

You're welcome.

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[Upaava]

So, you take a mythological story of old and use its fiction as some kind of message from god on how to behave and why? Interesting..

May peace be with you,

What if it is not a mythological story, Skwim ; what if the increasing number and severity of storms, earthquakes, and volcanic activity forewarn another purification for humankind?

There are always choices to be made, which can occur even up to the last minute, to truly repent, which is more than mere words, but a deep, heartfelt desire to change one's ways.

I wish you the best.