The FLOOD, God's Great Failure?

[Daisies4me]

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May I ask if you believe in predestination? I am not sure by reading your post, if you are associating 'omniscience' with the idea that some believe, that being that God predestined all things aforetime? What might you have agreed with in my post, if anything? It was intended to bring more possibilities for consideration, for those wanting to discuss the topic.

 

[Daisies4me]

Humans were as originally created sinless. We still retain the image of God in our ability to reason, and make choices based upon that reason. God is perfect justice, perfect mercy. When humanity rebelled, justice required the penalty assured before the rebellion, death. However, in mercy, God provided a system of atonement (remember the sacrifices of Cain and Abel ?) Blood was spilled from the beginning, pointing forward to Christs final sacrifice,. With the Jews the sacrificial system was refined and specific laws were given, but none were the perfect sacrifice, They were temporary and had to be repeated, but they all pointed forward. This system and it's laws were eliminated when Christ (Paul called him the second Adam) a sinless human (as Adam was originally) lived a perfect life, which was required, and died the death required for all humans, the perfect sacrifice, and these were imputed to those that believe. God is perfectly just, Christ's death met the standard of punishment. Christ's life meets the standard of perfection for us, perfectly merciful. One can benefit from this by choosing to do so, God would never compromise your free will, your right to choose, by compelling you to live when you choose to die ( the ultimate, final death, oblivion ). As to the souls before the crucifixion, they were participating in a symbolic pre acceptance of the results of the Crucifixion, which was adequate. As to the millions who have never known about God through history, he is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, and how he deals with them I can only surmise it will be just and merciful.

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WOW. If that is what you got out of the Bible teachings, no wonder you don't believe it. So wrong on so many levels, I just hate that people have been taught/believe such distortions about what the Bible actually teaches.... Let's just start with the first sentence in the Bible. Do you believe that to be true, or consider that it may be true?

 

[Daisies4me]

second try (this forum is so difficult to navigate) WOW. If that is what you got out of the Bible teachings, no wonder you don't believe it. So wrong on so many levels, I just hate that people have been taught/believe such distortions about what the Bible actually teaches.... Let's just start with the first sentence in the Bible. Do you believe that to be true, or consider that it may be true?

 

[Daisies4me]

With respect, that is nonsense. First, God isn't omniscient, He doesn't know what will happen before it does, unless he uses His omnipotence to bring it about. Second, beings with free will who know the parameters of their choices, are totally responsible for those choices. To blame God for what a free moral agent does is just another of a long litany of humans squawking, "It's not my fault because.........................................." There are no excuses if you make a knowledgeable choice, and choose poorly.

 

[Daisies4me]

Hi
May I add a thought the idea of free will?
For all who do not want to think positively about God, this may only add to their opinion-- but, if there is a thinking person who is not a robot , perhaps they have to admit that choose each day, how they will act, what they will eat, do, etc.---they are responsible for their own actions. otherwise, all of the bad things that have happened from the beginning, when the Rebellion against God happened in the Garden, including all of the wars, murders, thefts, tortures, rapes, violent weather conditions, famines, etc., would all be the fault of God. That is a bit farfetched, imho. God did not create the earth for nothing, but created it to be inhabited by peaceful humans and animals. And I believe that promise, yet to be fulfilled, will become a reality in God's due time.

 

[shmogie]

second try (this forum is so difficult to navigate) WOW. If that is what you got out of the Bible teachings, no wonder you don't believe it. So wrong on so many levels, I just hate that people have been taught/believe such distortions about what the Bible actually teaches.... Let's just start with the first sentence in the Bible. Do you believe that to be true, or consider that it may be true?

Well, please correct me. No distortions at all, Pretty much in harmony with Luther, unless you consider him ignorant as well, As to the open view of God, if you feel that God knew everything about humanity before he created anything, then you are just and actor on a stage doing exactly what God's script said you would do. You have as much free will as Humphrey Bogart in the film Casablanca, watch it again and see if he does something different, of course, he won't, he cant. Just like you cannot do anything differently from the film of your life you believe God saw before you were born. Of course I believe the first verse of the Bible

 

[Daisies4me]

Actually, I understand how skeptics could twist the flood (or anything) to look like a failure, as easily as I can understand it (in my mind) as a success for the human race.

Consider that lots of wicked people were wiped out by the wrath of God, and these people were not the ones sinning after the flood. At any rate, later on God sent Jesus, partly to quench wrath with grace, which believers today live under.

The sin - then and now - comes from Satan, and God didn't destroy Satan with the flood - he destroyed the wicked people!

As a believer, this is how I see it as a success.

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I agree with you that it was a good thing, as it put a stop to the Nephilim, the evil demon giants in the land, the hybrid offspring of demons who had sexual relations with the daughters of men. I don't see too many folks remembering that part of the need to cleanse the earth at that time.

 

[Daisies4me]

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What do you call the death due to old age? a consequence of being born from the sin of Adam?

 

[Daisies4me]

Well, please correct me. No distortions at all, Pretty much in harmony with Luther, unless you consider him ignorant as well, As to the open view of God, if you feel that God knew everything about humanity before he created anything, then you are just and actor on a stage doing exactly what God's script said you would do. You have as much free will as Humphrey Bogart in the film Casablanca, watch it again and see if he does something different, of course, he won't, he cant. Just like you cannot do anything differently from the film of your life you believe God saw before you were born. Of course I believe the first verse of the Bible

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Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that people do what they WANT to do. No robots . Just imperfect humans with the ability to make decisions and carry them out. Do you think that God programmed you before you were born to marry the person you chose? Or to like or dislike certain foods? If you have no choice in the matter, then you are no better than an animal acting on instinct. Humans are different from animals because they have the ability to think for themselves, and choose if they want to obey the Creator or not. The human brain is far superior , and so God placed mankind over the animals to take care of them. not the other way around.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No, God doesn't need a "bad role model" and those watching this drama play out, ( I personally believe that intelligent life was created by God throughout the universe) need to see what has occurred here from the very beginning to the very, very sad end. No, it will not occur again because this is so terrible no one will want to be involved in it's like.

I have had a different experience while navigating this life. It wasn't terrible. It was actually pretty good, and most people I know agree. I can't relate to this pessimism that I see coming from those most influenced by Christianity and/or conservative politics. They're always telling us how messed up the world is.

You ask them how their own lives are affected, and they usually report that they are having a typical first-world life. Their problems don't seem to include lack of a roof, physical danger, or lack of food. They talk about corrupt politicians and the national debt if they're in a political mood, and man's willful disobedience of their god if in a religious mood, but can't explain how that diminishes their lives.

I really can't use such a pessimistic worldview given how fortunate so many hundreds of millions if not billions of people have been. I consider it maladaptive. Those buying into it fail to notice the trees of green and clouds of white. Life is stunning, or certainly can be - not for everybody, but also not just for the few.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Nah. Much as it may rankle you, god is quite clear about why he created the flood.

Genesis 6:5-7 (ISV)
God Decides to Destroy the World
5 The Lord saw that human evil was growing more and more throughout the earth, with every inclination of people’s thoughts[o] becoming only evil on a continuous basis. 6 Then the Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and he was deeply grieved about that. 7 So the Lord said, “I will annihilate these human beings whom I’ve created from the[q] earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I’m grieving that I made them.”
​

Anything else is tap dancing.

.

That seems to contradict the idea that this is a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent god. A perfect god that regrets its mistakes is as logically impossible as a married bachelor, and for the same reason.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

With respect, that is nonsense. First, God isn't omniscient, He doesn't know what will happen before it does, unless he uses His omnipotence to bring it about. Second, beings with free will who know the parameters of their choices, are totally responsible for those choices. To blame God for what a free moral agent does is just another of a long litany of humans squawking, "It's not my fault because.........................................." There are no excuses if you make a knowledgeable choice, and choose poorly.

It seems as if every Christian has a different religion and worships a different god. Most call their God omniscient, but apparently, Christians feel free to choose from the menu of competing claims. Who can stop them?

I take full responsibility for my choices, which are as moral as I am capable of making. I don't submit to the commandments of the priests from any religion speaking in the name of some god they can't produce. Why would I?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Hmmm, valid points, I'd ask the man who made the claim but he appears to have closed his old website

btw, that's 144*4.5, not 114*4.5

114*4.5 = 513

Thanks. Just corrected the typo.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Nothing you posted has anything to do with omnipotence. If God knows everything beforehand, then he knowingly created evil, No. If God knew a million years before I was born whether I would be saved or lost, then why worry about it, no matter what I do or don't do,, it will turn out exactly as God saw it a million yeas ago.

You are doing what I would do were I a believer. The god concept needs remodeling. Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence are all problems. The god of the Christian Bible becomes logically impossible if you say that He possesses those qualities. Then you've got probelms like a god that knows everything before it happens yet is also said to grant free will, or one that loves us perfectly, sees all, and is all-powerful, but nevertheless inexplicably sits idly by as we suffer.

Are these claims of omniscience? :

• Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge? - Job 37:16”

• “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” - Hebrews 4:13

• “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows - Luke 12:7”

• “Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” - 1 John 3:20

Get rid of the extremes, and you have a god concept that can be defended from charges that it is logically impossible by virtue of having mutually exclusive traits.

 

[shmogie]

It seems as if every Christian has a different religion and worships a different god. Most call their God omniscient, but apparently, Christians feel free to choose from the menu of competing claims. Who can stop them?

I take full responsibility for my choices, which are as moral as I am capable of making. I don't submit to the commandments of the priests from any religion speaking in the name of some god they can't produce. Why would I?

It is clear that the concept of " the priesthood of all believers " gives each believer the right within the framework of the faith, to interpret and apply principles for themselves. For me, negating free will and making God directly responsible for evil is untrue. The Open view of God, which can be supported by Scripture and logic establishes that neither of these is true.

 

[shmogie]

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Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that people do what they WANT to do. No robots . Just imperfect humans with the ability to make decisions and carry them out. Do you think that God programmed you before you were born to marry the person you chose? Or to like or dislike certain foods? If you have no choice in the matter, then you are no better than an animal acting on instinct. Humans are different from animals because they have the ability to think for themselves, and choose if they want to obey the Creator or not. The human brain is far superior , and so God placed mankind over the animals to take care of them. not the other way around.

I think that you are confused about what I am posting, Please re read my posts. I totally reject predestination and the lack of free will. Free will is a critical component of salvation. Without free will God has created your robots

 

[shmogie]

I have had a different experience while navigating this life. It wasn't terrible. It was actually pretty good, and most people I know agree. I can't relate to this pessimism that I see coming from those most influenced by Christianity and/or conservative politics. They're always telling us how messed up the world is.

You ask them how their own lives are affected, and they usually report that they are having a typical first-world life. Their problems don't seem to include lack of a roof, physical danger, or lack of food. They talk about corrupt politicians and the national debt if they're in a political mood, and man's willful disobedience of their god if in a religious mood, but can't explain how that diminishes their lives.

I really can't use such a pessimistic worldview given how fortunate so many hundreds of millions if not billions of people have been. I consider it maladaptive. Those buying into it fail to notice the trees of green and clouds of white. Life is stunning, or certainly can be - not for everybody, but also not just for the few.

A pessimistic world view, or reality ? I think you have placed yourself in a bubble isolated from history and reality. All people die, and billion's have died hideous deaths, My first wife died one of these death's at 35 from cancer. 2/3 of Europe was killed by the plague during the dark/middle ages. Millions have been slaughtered by war, just murders over history is probably in the millions. Gods intent is that no one die. Being aware of these things means that I don't choose to inhabit your bubble. Many millions more have lived and do live in abject poverty and are consumed by disease. Many have been wickedly abused by other people, made slaves, tortured and maimed. All things considered I have had a good life too, nevertheless humanity is and has been in a condition never intended by God. Considering what he intended, we are a long long way from where we should be. To paraphrase Donne, "no man is an island/ do not ask for whom the bell toll's it toll's for thee/ every mans death effects me for I am a part of mankind "

 

[Riders]

Then I assume you see no success either.

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Yea I Fu&ked up the human race now I'm killing everyone off except for Noah and his family. WOW way to start over. God messed up yes.................................here's a question. Men's hearts are still evil today why not a flood now?

When we had the big sunamis in New Orleans Christians said God did that on purpose at those who were evil there. Someone at my old telesales job with the Shriners, were talking about a tornado that was predicted for mesquite my city.

They said God would kill those of us non Christian sinners, I said something smartelic to him about it he said "God can aim his tornado directly at you smarty mouth miss!" I'm still alive that was 10 years ago.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is clear that the concept of " the priesthood of all believers " gives each believer the right within the framework of the faith, to interpret and apply principles for themselves. For me, negating free will and making God directly responsible for evil is untrue. The Open view of God, which can be supported by Scripture and logic establishes that neither of these is true.

In my view, with omniscience and omnipotence comes omni-responsibility. But I think that you have said that your view of god doesn't necessarily entail both of those.

 

[shmogie]

In my view, with omniscience and omnipotence comes omni-responsibility. But I think that you have said that your view of god doesn't necessarily entail both of those.

Omnipotence is certainly an attribute of God. Either by choice or nature he cannot KNOW what hasn't occurred. Nevertheless, He knows his creation intimately and he is perfectly prepared to deal with ANY eventually that arises, and can use his omnipotence in his response. Many confuse these with omniscience.