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The FLOOD, God's Great Failure?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that you are confused about what I am posting, Please re read my posts. I totally reject predestination and the lack of free will. Free will is a critical component of salvation. Without free will God has created your robots

There is a lot of interesting work being done in the area of free will research, much of which suggests that the self-conscious self is not the author of volition, but a passive recipient and observer of impulses being generated outside of consciousness and then delivered there.

All we know is that we have a desire or urge, and generally experience no impediment to expressing it. We call that experience free will, but a little thought will tell you that you don't choose what you will want, just whether to indulge the desire or not.

That seems to be a description of what you are calling being a robot. If that's what's happening, then we're all robots. I don't hear much complaint about that state of affairs. If there's a complaint, it's getting urges to do things that are destructive and need to be controlled.

I find it preferable to have right thinking hardwired into me. If a god exists and has the power to do that, He should have. Free will isn't desirable if it includes willing things we'd be better off not wanting.

According to Christian theology, it will cost most of us our eternal souls. How is that not a curse?

Notice that when it comes to raising our children, we do the best we can to program good values and right thinking into them, meaning to shape their wills. If we had the power to click the desire to steal or betray out of them, we would. We do everything in our power to shape their wills because we know that that is the limit of that power - another acknowledgement that free will is not desirable if it facilitates people doing wrong.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
There is a lot of interesting work being done in the area of free will research, much of which suggests that the self-conscious self is not the author of volition, but a passive recipient and observer of impulses being generated outside of consciousness and then delivered there.

All we know is that we have a desire or urge, and generally experience no impediment to expressing it. We call that experience free will, but a little thought will tell you that you don't choose what you will want, just whether to indulge the desire or not.

That seems to be a description of what you are calling being a robot. If that's what's happening, then we're all robots. I don't hear much complaint about that state of affairs. If there's a complaint, it's getting urges to do things that are destructive and need to be controlled.

I find it preferable to have right thinking hardwired into me. If a god exists and has the power to do that, He should have. Free will isn't desirable if it includes willing things we'd be better off not wanting.

According to Christian theology, it will cost most of us our eternal souls. How is that not a curse?

Notice that when it comes to raising our children, we do the best we can to program good values and right thinking into them, meaning to shape their wills. If we had the power to click the desire to steal or betray out of them, we would. We do everything in our power to shape their wills because we know that that is the limit of that power - another acknowledgement that free will is not desirable if it facilitates people doing wrong.
I totally disagree with your conclusions. The right of free will given to created beings means that these beings have the ability to choose, not be compelled, to follow him. Of course it is a curse, because it was used to foment a rebellion that led to hideous results for humanity. Can you program into your children love for you ? If you could, how valuable would this compelled loved be ? Would you prefer your child be compelled to love you blindly without choice, or freely choose to love you ?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A pessimistic world view, or reality ? I think you have placed yourself in a bubble isolated from history and reality. All people die, and billion's have died hideous deaths, My first wife died one of these death's at 35 from cancer. 2/3 of Europe was killed by the plague during the dark/middle ages. Millions have been slaughtered by war, just murders over history is probably in the millions. Gods intent is that no one die. Being aware of these things means that I don't choose to inhabit your bubble. Many millions more have lived and do live in abject poverty and are consumed by disease. Many have been wickedly abused by other people, made slaves, tortured and maimed. All things considered I have had a good life too, nevertheless humanity is and has been in a condition never intended by God. Considering what he intended, we are a long long way from where we should be. To paraphrase Donne, "no man is an island/ do not ask for whom the bell toll's it toll's for thee/ every mans death effects me for I am a part of mankind "

Sorry about your wife. Perhaps that's why all you see is negativity in the world, although I suspect that Christian theology has a lot to do with it as well.

I am here to tell you that there is good in the world as well - beauty and happiness - and it is possible not just to believe that the world can be a good place, but to be able to report that fact firsthand.

Is your life so hard to live? Are you hungry or homeless? Living is fear of privation?

Almost everybody I know awakens in a comfortable bed, grabs a cup of coffee if he likes, maybe some toast, has a hot shower and dresses in decent clothes.

If he works, gets into an air conditioned car and goes to an air conditioned place of business to do fairly easy work in terms of physical effort expended, has lunch and another few hours of work before coming home to loved ones, maybe some time on the Internet.

And if retired, like me, it's all play. Last evening, my wife and I walked down to the plaza by the lake, watched the people vending, eating at roadside cafes, grilling in the park, children swimming in the lake with their dogs, young lovers walking hand in hand, kids on the swing sets and slides, etc.. Everybody seemed as happy as we were. Then we had an ice cream cone, and ran into friends with whom we sat and chatted before buying a blanket from a vendor and walking home again for a little wine and a DVD.

This morning, we've already been to the dog park and back. She's got bridge with the girls in about two hours,and we're having friends over tonight for dinner.

That's a typical life where I live, which you might call a third world country with a large expatriate community. The locals seem happy, as do the members of my demographic - retirees living abroad.

Some suffer with some arthritis or back pain, but they still enjoy life. Some are alone or unhappily married, but still, they find life a net positive. Some are losing their sight and/or hearing.

And I have seen much of the world. People mostly seem happy. Costa Ricans seem happy. Tahitians and Hawaiians seem happy. Austrians and Parisians seem happy. The people of Vietnam seemed happy.

You wrote, "Being aware of these things means that I don't choose to inhabit your bubble."

Why is my worldview a bubble and yours not?

I just can't identify with your dark view of the world, and regret that you can't step out of your bubble into mine, although the way you worded it - "I don't choose to inhabit your bubble" - implies that you prefer the gloominess. I doubt that you do.

I know that there was a black plague, people are murdered, some get sick and die, and others are traumatized or killed in wars. Did you know that some people are not murdered, are healthy, and didn't die in a plague or war?

You suggested that you had a more realistic outlook. I don't see that. Your outlook doesn't acknowledge all of the goodness and happiness in the world, just pain and suffering.

========

Moments after posting this, the following appeared in my email: The World Happiness Report is out and the U.S. has fallen. Sad!

"The World Happiness Report rankings are based on data from the Gallup World Poll, which uses a simple measure called the “Cantril ladder.” People are asked to envision a ladder, with their “best possible life” being a 10 on the top rung, and the worst possible life being a 0. Where does their life fall on that ladder?

"Six key variables are then used to explain those happiness scores, according to the report: “income, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, freedom and trust, with the latter measured by the absence of corruption in business and government.”

"All the countries in the top 10 scored highly in those six areas, with Norway as the leading example of how those factors contribute to the happiness of their residents."

That's a lot of happy people.
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
Sorry about your wife. Perhaps that's why all you see is negativity in the world, although I suspect that Christian theology has a lot to do with it as well.

I am here to tell you that there is good in the world as well - beauty and happiness - and it is possible not just to believe that the world can be a good place, but to be able to report that fact firsthand.

Is your life so hard to live? Are you hungry or homeless? Living is fear of privation?

Almost everybody I know awakens in a comfortable bed, grabs a cup of coffee if he likes, maybe some toast, has a hot shower and dresses in decent clothes.

If he works, gets into an air conditioned car and goes to an air conditioned place of business to do fairly easy work in terms of physical effort expended, has lunch and another few hours of work before coming home to loved ones, maybe some time on the Internet.

And if retired, like me, it's all play. Last evening, my wife and I walked down to the plaza by the lake, watched the people vending, eating at roadside cafes, grilling in the park, children swimming in the lake with their dogs, young lovers walking hand in hand, kids on the swing sets and slides, etc.. Everybody seemed as happy as we were. Then we had an ice cream cone, and ran into friends with whom we sat and chatted before buying a blanket from a vendor and walking home again for a little wine and a DVD.

This morning, we've already been to the dog park and back. She's got bridge with the girls in about two hours,and we're having friends over tonight for dinner.

That's a typical life where I live, which you might call a third world country with a large expatriate community. The locals seem happy, as do the members of my demographic - retirees living abroad.

Some suffer with some arthritis or back pain, but they still enjoy life. Some are alone or unhappily married, but still, they find life a net positive. Some are losing their sight and/or hearing.

And I have seen much of the world. People mostly seem happy. Costa Ricans seem happy. Tahitians and Hawaiians seem happy. Austrians and Parisians seem happy. The people of Vietnam seemed happy.

You wrote, "Being aware of these things means that I don't choose to inhabit your bubble."

Why is my worldview a bubble and yours not?

I just can't identify with your dark view of the world, and regret that you can't step out of your bubble into mine, although the way you worded it - "I don't choose to inhabit your bubble" - implies that you prefer the gloominess. I doubt that you do.

I know that there was a black plague, people are murdered, some get sick and die, and others are traumatized or killed in wars. Did you know that some people are not murdered, are healthy, and didn't die in a plague or war?

You suggested that you had a more realistic outlook. I don't see that. Your outlook doesn't acknowledge all of the goodness and happiness in the world, just pain and suffering.

========

Moments after posting this, the following appeared in my email: The World Happiness Report is out and the U.S. has fallen. Sad!

"The World Happiness Report rankings are based on data from the Gallup World Poll, which uses a simple measure called the “Cantril ladder.” People are asked to envision a ladder, with their “best possible life” being a 10 on the top rung, and the worst possible life being a 0. Where does their life fall on that ladder?

"Six key variables are then used to explain those happiness scores, according to the report: “income, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on in times of trouble, generosity, freedom and trust, with the latter measured by the absence of corruption in business and government.”

"All the countries in the top 10 scored highly in those six areas, with Norway as the leading example of how those factors contribute to the happiness of their residents."

That's a lot of happy people.
Oh, I agree, their is a lot of relative happiness. I have had a good life, a college education, a good job that allowed me to achieve some national recognition in my chosen field. There have been heartaches, but all in all I have had the American dream come true. I too am retired, in the great State of Arizona. However I also recognize that throughout history there are millions who have had terrible lives, pain, suffering, on and on. So just knowing that lessens things for me a bit. It wasn't intended to be this way for them, and I truly feel very bad for them. That is why I believe Christianity offers the only hope to humanity to return to the way it was meant to be, so much more than we can even imagine.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Humans were as originally created sinless.

If humans were created, we were created with the will and ability to do what is called sin.

We still retain the image of God in our ability to reason, and make choices based upon that reason.

Yet we are told that our sense of reason is nothing like God's, and that we are not equipped to think like Him. The Christian is told from a young age to not trust reason:
  • "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but-more frequently than not-struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God."- Martin Luther

God is perfect justice, perfect mercy.
I couldn't disagree more. Sending kind and loving people to hell for not believing the right religion and forgiving monsters who happen to repent while dying is not justice. Cursing all of mankind for the failures of a pair of kids in a garden set up to fail is not justice. Eternal torture without hope of parole for failing to believe in the right god or any god is neither justice nor mercy.

As to the souls before the crucifixion, they were participating in a symbolic pre acceptance of the results of the Crucifixion, which was adequate.

I don't know what that means, but it sounds like a double standard. Why aren't we all judged the same way?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
. God did not create the earth for nothing, but created it to be inhabited by peaceful humans and animals. And I believe that promise, yet to be fulfilled, will become a reality in God's due time.

My understanding is that God created the earth to harvest the fraction of souls willing to believe in Him by faith to bring to His heavenly home and praise him for eternity, everything else either to be destroyed in a fiery apocalypse or dropped into a lake of fire.

Did I miss something?
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
If humans were created, we were created with the will and ability to do what is called sin.



Yet we are told that our sense of reason is nothing like God's, and that we are not equipped to think like Him. The Christian is told from a young age to not trust reason:
  • "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but-more frequently than not-struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God."- Martin Luther
I was taught, in a Christian family, that reason coupled with faith and knowledge of the scriptures will lead in the right direction. Luther is one of my personal hero's, but he was a human, not a divine oracle, and he made mistakes like all humans.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, I agree, their is a lot of relative happiness.

I've never seen another idea close to this from you until now. Yes, there is happiness and unhappiness in this world. That has been my point. Why do you report only on darkness?

I have had a good life, a college education, a good job that allowed me to achieve some national recognition in my chosen field. There have been heartaches, but all in all I have had the American dream come true. I too am retired, in the great State of Arizona. However I also recognize that throughout history there are millions who have had terrible lives, pain, suffering, on and on. So just knowing that lessens things for me a bit. It wasn't intended to be this way for them, and I truly feel very bad for them. That is why I believe Christianity offers the only hope to humanity to return to the way it was meant to be, so much more than we can even imagine.

All decent people feel for the poor, sick, weak, and unlucky. I don't see Christianity as the solution to their problems.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, please correct me. No distortions at all, Pretty much in harmony with Luther, unless you consider him ignorant as well, As to the open view of God, if you feel that God knew everything about humanity before he created anything, then you are just and actor on a stage doing exactly what God's script said you would do. You have as much free will as Humphrey Bogart in the film Casablanca, watch it again and see if he does something different, of course, he won't, he cant. Just like you cannot do anything differently from the film of your life you believe God saw before you were born. Of course I believe the first verse of the Bible

This is where you shine. I couldn't agree with you more.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that God created the earth to harvest the fraction of souls willing to believe in Him by faith to bring to His heavenly home and praise him for eternity, everything else either to be destroyed in a fiery apocalypse or dropped conscious into a lake of fire.

Did I miss something?
Yes. The earth was created for all humans to live a good life, to be in harmony with God. God still desires that ALL humans be in the world when it is returned to what it originally was. They are free to choose. Those who choose not to participate in what will be are out of harmony with God, and would not fit in in any way in the newly renewed universe. They cease to exist, what they have freely chosen.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can you program into your children love for you ? If you could, how valuable would this compelled loved be ? Would you prefer your child be compelled to love you blindly without choice, or freely choose to love you ?

I don't see a difference. Love is love.

And yes, if I could program my children to be loving, kind, honest, etc., why wouldn't I? I did the closest to that available to me. I tried to indoctrinate them with good habits before they were old enough to think critically.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I've never seen another idea close to this from you until now. Yes, there is happiness and unhappiness in this world. That has been my point. Why do you report only on darkness?



All decent people feel for the poor, sick, weak, and unlucky. I don't see Christianity as the solution to their problems.
Without Christianity we all exist for a miniscule flash of time, with no purpose, no meaning, accidental results of random, blind processes. This to me is in and of itself is dark. Within this system the tiny flash comes and goes, as if it never existed. Christianity is the solution to all of our problems. I am not a reporter, I do not report I do my best to explain the faith, why it exists. Exalting that the glass is half full for some people, when it could be so much better for all people doesn't strike me as a great exercise
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes. The earth was created for all humans to live a good life, to be in harmony with God.

Where did you learn that? If that's correct, why is earth slated for demolition?

God still desires that ALL humans be in the world when it is returned to what it originally was. They are free to choose. Those who choose not to participate in what will be are out of harmony with God, and would not fit in in any way in the newly renewed universe. They cease to exist, what they have freely chosen.

No, I had no choice in my skepticism and atheism. I cannot force myself to believe what appears unbelievable to me.

Here's where your repudiation of divine omniscience pays off for you: To another Christian, I would say that if your god knew what it would take for me to believe and didn't provide it, then that god failed me, not the other way around.

But your god is not a mind reader, and so is excused. That god might not even know that I exist.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I don't see a difference. Love is love.

And yes, if I could program my children to be loving, kind, honest, etc., why wouldn't I? I did the closest to that available to me. I tried to indoctrinate them with good habits before they were old enough to think critically.
Of course you did. However I have dealt with parents who did, and have broken hearts because their children drifted away. Love is love. Well, not really. In Koine Greek in which the NT was written there are different kinds of love. To me, having someone to choose to love, rather than love out of blind compulsion, says nothing about the object of their love, they could love an evil tyrant, because they have no choice
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Without Christianity we all exist for a miniscule flash of time, with no purpose, no meaning, accidental results of random, blind processes. This to me is in and of itself is dark. Within this system the tiny flash comes and goes, as if it never existed.

My life is more meaningful now than it was when I was a Christian. I don't find meaning in being created to praise and worship another.

You would understand how we can have hope, find meaning and purpose in our lives, and want to live a life of moral excellence without a god belief.

  • "Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astounding universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
  • "The significance of our lives and our fragile planet is then determined only by our own wisdom and courage. We are the custodians of life's meaning. We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." - Carl Sagan

Christianity is the solution to all of our problems. I am not a reporter, I do not report I do my best to explain the faith, why it exists.

Christianity did not solve my problems. I did.


Exalting that the glass is half full for some people, when it could be so much better for all people doesn't strike me as a great exercise

Many of us are doing what we can. Think globally, act locally.

Of course, we face powerful, entrenched enemies.

In the meantime, I would be ungrateful not to be happy given my good fortune being born in the time and place I was into a good home and with the opportunities afforded me.

You seem to disagree with that attitude. You've been resisting it.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Where did you learn that? If that's correct, why is earth slated for demolition?



No, I had no choice in my skepticism and atheism. I cannot force myself to believe what appears unbelievable to me.

Here's where your repudiation of divine omniscience pays off for you: To another Christian, I would say that if your god knew what it would take for me to believe and didn't provide it, then that god failed me, not the other way around.

But your god is not a mind reader, and so is excused. That god might not even know that I exist.
Read the first chapter of Genesis. The world is slated to be rehabilitated. God has provided everything you need to believe. However it doesn't come to you by osmosis. I was a hardcore atheist, rejecting the faith of my family. Because of an interest in cosmology, astronomy and biology I learned that the pat answers of secular science is not in fact proof of much. I learned that the universe was created in an unknown process from nothing, including space and time, I learned that biogenesis is a fairy tale. I learned that macro evolution is wracked with serious flaws. My study of logic and philosophy as well as probability lead me to believe that my prior position was untenable. Oh yes, God knows you exist.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
My life is more meaningful now than it was when I was a Christian. I don't find meaning in being created to praise and worship another.

You would understand how we can have hope, find meaning and purpose in our lives, and want to live a life of moral excellence without a god belief.

  • "Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astounding universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan
  • "The significance of our lives and our fragile planet is then determined only by our own wisdom and courage. We are the custodians of life's meaning. We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable. If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." - Carl Sagan


Christianity did not solve my problems. I did.




Many of us are doing what we can. Think globally, act locally.

Of course, we face powerful, entrenched enemies.

In the meantime, I would be ungrateful not to be happy given my good fortune being born in the time and place I was into a good home and with the opportunities afforded me.

You seem to disagree with that attitude. You've been resisting it.
No, I don't disagree. We should be grateful. You think you solved your problems, and perhaps you have to this point, but you will sicken and die, major problems to me, that you cannot solve
 
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