• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You should be very cautious as to whom you refer to as a liar. Such claims are the known chant of those seeking to silence those they cannot otherwise debate without looking stupid and lacking any sense of humor.
There is nothing to debate with liars.

Engaging in debate is only meaningful when you assume the other side will play fair.
If you know in advance that all that person will do is engage in dishonest debate tactics, then you know he is not interested in actually learning or what is actually true.

Debate at that point is only an exercise in futility.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
My position that GOD can do anything and HE created MAN entirely independent of any of the animal kingdom. GOD created the entire Universe in 6 days. HE is GOD and is fully capable. GOD doesn't need billions of years to evolve anything.

Why did he make it look as if it was all the result of billions years of evolution?
If he did it in a couple days only a few thousand years ago, then he went seriously out of his way to make it look as if it all happened naturally over the course of 13.7 billion years. Why this need to deceive us all?

And there is anything found anywhere that isn't observed to be completely functional or in the process of developing missing parts.
Why would you think otherwise?

Ow right, that strawman idea of evolution you have in your head where you expect to find fish with half a fin or a crockoduck.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
A virus is still a virus. Dangerous perhaps but still merely a virus.
What else would it be?


And any, any, ANY ---- study that eliminates any consideration of GOD is nothing more than atheism to the highest degree.

So do you also complain about "atheistic weather forecasting"?
Maybe we should sacrifice a few virgin girls in spain to get the gods to send rain instead of el nino heat waves?

I am not led by the majority: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14
There can be only one!
- Duncan MacCleod
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So do you also complain about "atheistic weather forecasting"?
Maybe we should sacrifice a few virgin girls in spain to get the gods to send rain instead of el nino heat waves?
Metallurgy is another atheistic science.
Why not consider God instead of carbide precipitate size in steel, eh.
Perhaps smaller carbides please God, so he makes the steel behave
with more strength, rather than their simply limiting crystal dislocation
movements that allow plastic deformation.
 
Last edited:

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
The evidence against Darwin Evolution. A simple straightforward presentation that gives us hope in a world that offers only the possibility of a Cosmic accident that cannot be proven:

I watched it, so will give you my thoughts on it. I get the idea that this is one of those times where neither of us are going to convince the other, so this is more about swaying the audience. Also, I suspect that for you, anything that provides potential for a creator rather than us simply being the result of natural processes is important; just remember that regardless of how we arrive to "homo sapiens" you can always insert a creator if you wish despite the science. However, if we are discussing science, let's discuss science.

1. First of all, the narrator makes the error of suggesting that evolution makes our existence meaningless. That isn't a valid argument. The mere proclamation that something is meaningless assigns meaning to it. Plus, is it really not meaningful to be a part of a complex natural process? I find it extremely meaningful to know that I am a product of the Universe being patterned in this particular way to create this thing I experience.

2. The first point the narrator actually makes is something about evolution rewarding the "worthy" and punishing the "unworthy." Aside from being a very Biblical way of interpreting this, it isn't entirely accurate. Species adapt over time through the ability to reproduce and pass on offspring. Sometimes, unfit adaptations occur that, despite not being the best fit for the environment, still allows reproduction. For brevity, here's a link to some pretty dumb adaptations: 10 Worst Adaptations in the Animal Kingdom. (Note how this also suggests evolution since it shows imperfect adaptations rather than perfect creations. Like, why would God give us wisdom teeth?!)

3. These are the "dirty secrets." While they are interesting, they are either missing context, outrightly misleading, or interesting but do not dispel the evidence.

a) I admit I had to actually research this one a bit and the science is largely over my head. Douglas Axe's data on protein folding is interesting and it was an facinating rabbit hole! Largely, the science here is still being worked out. From what I read, his isn't the only data to show that protein folding has a wildly low success rate for functionality. That was nearly 20 years ago, though, and I suspect the science has changed, but maybe not. I don't have the scientific understanding of the subject and was unable to find anything but commentary by scientists about it.

Regardless, this doesn't disprove evolution. It suggests that protein adaptability is difficult, but the evidence that it has occurred is pretty clear. It could be based on the single type of protein Axe was using (beta-lactamase), or the process he used. Or it could be that there are factors he couldn't consider in his calculations. As much as scientists attempt to take in all factors, things outside of a lab are inherently messy and infinitely complex. I suspect (and please, anyone with greater knowledge on this correct me!) that it is a matter of simple proteins forming early and often with more complex ones unable to form at the same rate. Here is a link to Axe's research: Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds - PubMed


b) DNA is a coding system, yes, but the building blocks for it have been shown to naturally be produced extraterrestrially (in outer space). In other words, the building blocks of DNA form naturally and very likely the coding process that leads to life also naturally occurs due to the structure of these materials. Note: You can, if you wish, insert a creator in this process, but science doesn't require this. It is a personal preference. Regardless, DNA very readily provides the mechanism for evolution to occur and even the difficulty of functional protein folding cannot dispute this.

c) The 3rd dirty secret is an old one and very much not a secret. This is the old "missing link" argument. That there are gaps in the transitional record has two good reasons: Life decays and slow transitions between species require minute changes over long periods that may not be observable. There are sudden adaptations in species that can be observed, but also small ones that cannot. Also, a big problem with the "missing link" when it comes to humans is those links being filled in over time. We are continually finding new hominids and adding links in the chain. This Small-Brained Human Species May Have Buried Its Dead, Controlled Fire and Made Art

d) The last one is also not a secret and also an old argument: the watchmaker argument. The complexity and purpose of organs are being compared to machines: designed things for a purpose. This argument has been around since at least the 1800s and even Darwin specifically addressed it by saying that over time, fixed laws in nature are perfectly capable of creating complexity. Now, we know how DNA is able to create complexity, shaped by environmental forces.
 
Last edited:

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Why did he make it look as if it was all the result of billions years of evolution?
If he did it in a couple days only a few thousand years ago, then he went seriously out of his way to make it look as if it all happened naturally over the course of 13.7 billion years. Why this need to deceive us all?


Why would you think otherwise?

Ow right, that strawman idea of evolution you have in your head where you expect to find fish with half a fin or a crockoduck.
The time discrepancy has to do with Relativity and time dilation. If you assume each day in Genesis is an earth day, then it does not make sense in terms of the differences in science time scale and Genesis time scale. However, why would God use an earth day, at the BB event, when the earth had not yet formed? Humans added that assumption before they understood relativity.

To make one God day equal to 13.7 billion years on earth, God would need to be almost in a speed of light reference. to get the needed time dilation. To then create the solar system; sun and earth, on another day, which took 6 billion years, his reference would still be close to the speed of light, but somewhat less. Creating life, then modern animals each lowers the science time scale meaning further and further reduction from the speed of light reference equivalent; relativistic slow down in time reference, until God becomes man and he is in earth reference.

If I did this same analysis with an aliens and alien technology, you would accept it. The time dilation math and science is good, but the politics is not so good, if I say God and time dilation, instead of alien technology and time dilation.



As far as Evolution, it can not be fully correct, until water gets the proper billing on the theory. Water is able to integrate and thereby lower randomness. Casino science is less important if water is included. Casino science and the black box adds subjectivity. Rational science does not use a black box and whims of the gods.

A glass of water is held together with hydrogen bonding, which is the strongest secondary bonding force. Secondary bonding can create reversible structures. With water this is taken to the extreme, since each water molecule can form four hydrogen bonds, with other water molecules. This can create a large reversible matrix.

If I add organic things to the glass of water, with water remaining the dominant phase, this addition will break some hydrogen bonds of water and add surface tension, This adds hydrogen bonding potential to the water matrix. Water will rearrange the store to minimize this potential. In cells, the water will pack freshly made protein to minimize the water potential. All aspects of Life, lives under the same constant regional water constraints down to the nanoscale. Evolutionary steps will all need to accommodate the global affect of the water matrix. Not all change is optimized, however sweet spots are possible.

The DNA double helix can take up several conformations (for example, right-handed A-DNA pitch 28.2 Å 11 bp, B-DNA pitch 34 Å 10 bp, C-DNA pitch 31 Å 9.33 bp, D-DNA pitch 24.2 Å 8 bp, and the left-handed Z-DNA pitch 43Å 12 bp) with differing hydration. The predominant natural DNA, B-DNA, has a wide and deep major groove and a narrow and deep minor groove and requires the greatest hydration. Lowering the hydration (for example, by adding ethanol) may cause transitions from B-DNA to A-DNA [2784] to Z-DNA.
The amount of hydration; water activity, can impact the final conformation of the active DNA. Since B-DNA is predominate in nature and needs the most hydration, the activity of the water needs to be high, with water having a say in terms of what molecules needed to be in the cell for that goal.

Most of the mutation changes on the DNA are not coding genes, but what are called junk genes. If we add a change to the junk genes it may not be directly noticeable. However, the junk genes, as a whole, are connected to the configuration potential of the DNA in water. This can be used to leverage coding gene expression. The water will not allow a run away expression that causes it potential to keep rising. Something will need to happen. If anything it will push the other way to water can lower the global aqueous potential; evolution.
 
Last edited:

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I want to add one more consideration. The image of the DNA double helix misrepresents the DNA, since DNA also has a double helix of water in the major and minor grooves. The DNA will not work without that water. It is as important as the sugars and phosphate, which are usually shown. I am still not sure why this water is left out of textbooks, since it would encourage students to ask questions about its purpose. Why the dumb down?

Below is a diagram of the hydrogen bonding of the base pairs of DNA and the hydrogen bonded water, used for the water double helix, that has an impact on DNA hydrogen bonding. The GC base pair form three base pair hydrogen bonds and six water based hydrogen bonds, while AT form two base pair hydrogen bonds and five water hydrogen bonds. The attached water, attached to other water, can influence the resonance electrons of the aromatic bases and alter the strength of the base pair hydrogen bonds. The water has a sweet spot in mind.

nuclei.gif
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Please don't watch ---- but don't waste anymore of my time with your own pile of garbage I heard 50 years ago. The way to get high marks in science is to tell the professor what HE wants to hear. However, I don't have to believe it. And I'm not paying you to write rebuttal after rebuttal either.
It sounds to me like you've never taken a science course in your life.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I had biology all through school and in college. How familiar are you with the Bible. Have you attended Bible studies, hermeneutics, and taken pastoral duties courses?

In what way doesn't the first narrator know science. Please summarize your full expectations and where exactly did he missed his goal.

My position that GOD can do anything and HE created MAN entirely independent of any of the animal kingdom. GOD created the entire Universe in 6 days. HE is GOD and is fully capable. GOD doesn't need billions of years to evolve anything. And there is anything found anywhere that isn't observed to be completely functional or in the process of developing missing parts.
Cool story, bro. Got any evidence for it?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that if you can show that evolution is wrong or inaccurate, then that would make your god beliefs true, by default. It doesn't. You still have all your work ahead of you in showing that your god claims are true and accurate.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The time discrepancy has to do with Relativity and time dilation. If you assume each day in Genesis is an earth day, then it does not make sense in terms of the differences in science time scale and Genesis time scale. However, why would God use an earth day, at the BB event, when the earth had not yet formed? Humans added that assumption before they understood relativity.

To make one God day equal to 13.7 billion years on earth, God would need to be almost in a speed of light reference. to get the needed time dilation. To then create the solar system; sun and earth, on another day, which took 6 billion years, his reference would still be close to the speed of light, but somewhat less. Creating life, then modern animals each lowers the science time scale meaning further and further reduction from the speed of light reference equivalent; relativistic slow down in time reference, until God becomes man and he is in earth reference.

If I did this same analysis with an aliens and alien technology, you would accept it. The time dilation math and science is good, but the politics is not so good, if I say God and time dilation, instead of alien technology and time dilation.
Well, that was certainly "creative," but you're not getting a frubal for it! :rolleyes:
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Here is an interesting fact. Pairing between single nucleic acid bases upon hydrogen bond formation in bulk water does not occur (although often shown for simplicity's sake, see below) unless there is a string of hydrogen-bonded bases.

basepair.gif



In other words the nucleic acid bases need to be part of larger DNA and RNA structures before the hydrogen bonded base pairs form. The above diagram, although useful for showing the base pairs, is misleading. What do you expect from a black box and outdated biophysical chemistry.

The reason for this distinction is the DNA and RNA polymers, include sugar moieties; ribose for RNA and deoxyribose for DNA, that will both create surface tension in water. In the case of DNA, deoxyribose creates even more surface tension, so the water forms the double helix, targeting all the base pairs to form. This allows for a minimal potential structure, which is now a function of the degree of hydration. RNA, via ribose is less reduced and creates lower surface tension in water, so the base pairs can go both ways; some single and double helical areas.

When water was selecting molecules at the nanoscale, this minor sugar tweak made a big difference in evolution. There was also the Uracil to Thymine change; extra methyl in thymine, which had a similar affect. It allowed life to go from an RNA world, to the more stable DNA world of today; surface tension stabilized the base pairs for more reliable genetic memory.

The water took two hits by allowing the higher fixed reduction potential of DNA; added activation energy, but this led to a much more diverse world of life. This was an example of a stable entropic state or new stable platform for life to further advance, with the nucleus water staying more energized to compensate.
 
Last edited:

Astrophile

Active Member
The evidence against Darwin Evolution. A simple straightforward presentation that gives us hope in a world that offers only the possibility of a Cosmic accident that cannot be proven:
I am inclined to think that we first gained an accurate idea of our place in the universe when 16th-century and 17th-century astronomers showed that the Earth is not at the centre of the universe, and that, on the contrary, it is only one of a number of planets orbiting the Sun, which is itself one of innumerable stars.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Nope.

Why not break it down for us and give a summary? What are the four "dirty little secrets"?
(1) That the structure of even the simplest living cell is supposedly devastating for evolution.

(2) That DNA is an abstract coding system that points to intelligence.

(3) That the gaps in the fossil record have got worse, not better, since Darwin's time.

(4) Evolution supposedly offers no explanation for how new organs can form.

I do not think it necessary for me to comment on this.
 
Top