The global flood

[fallingblood]

The Hebrew flood story of Genesis 6–9 dates to at least the 5th century BC. According to the documentary hypothesis, it is a composite of two literary sources J and P that were combined by a post-exilic editor, 539–400 BC. Hans Schmid believes both the J material and the P material were products of the Babylonian exile period (6th century BC) and were directly derived from Babylonian sources

These only talk about when they were written. Not from the time they supposedly occurred

 

[outhouse]

Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most scholars accept the priority of the Mesopotamian flood story. Andrew R. George, known for his translations of the epic, notes that "...the Flood episode in Gen. 6-8 matches the older Babylonian myth so well in plot, and particularly, in details, few doubt that Noah's story is descended from a Mesopotamian account".[16] What is particularly noticeable, according to another scholar, is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the logic of the story permits other alternatives



key phrase, "most scholars"

 

[outhouse]

few doubt that Noah's story is descended from a Mesopotamian account".

 

[fallingblood]

Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most scholars accept the priority of the Mesopotamian flood story. Andrew R. George, known for his translations of the epic, notes that "...the Flood episode in Gen. 6-8 matches the older Babylonian myth so well in plot, and particularly, in details, few doubt that Noah's story is descended from a Mesopotamian account".[16] What is particularly noticeable, according to another scholar, is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the logic of the story permits other alternatives



key phrase, "most scholars"

Not all. And I'm not saying that the Sumerian story wasnt used. I'm saying that the Hebrews didn't simply copy it. I'm saying that the Hebrews also incorporated their own experiences into the story. Because even though the stories agree in areas, there are also mark able differences. And not to mention, two Biblical flood stories that are also noticeably different from one another.

 

[fallingblood]

few doubt that Noah's story is descended from a Mesopotamian account".

Descended and copied from are different. And if you notice, I have never stated that the Sumerian story wasnt used.

 

[outhouse]

I'm saying that the Hebrews didn't simply copy it.

I never implied it.


Didnt I made it quite clear semetic speaking people that migrated from that area in the levant would carry the stories in oral tradition butt it would not remain in tact due to time and cross culture oral transmission??????????

 

[Agnostic75]

Do you have a link to that other poll?

I already gave the link and quoted it in my post #15. The link is Creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That link says that 40% of the people who were polled believed that a global flood occurred. The other link that I quoted says that 40% of the people who were polled believed the God created humans pretty much as they are within the last 10,000 years or so. Logically, most people in both groups believe that a global flood occurred, and that the earth is about 6,000 - 10,000 years old.

Also, it is not obvious that those who believe in a global flood are YEC. The two don't go hand in hand. So I think you're wrong there as well.

No, you are wrong. Consider the following:

Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Young Earth creationists believe that the flood described in Genesis 6-9 did occur, was global in extent, and submerged the highest mountains on Earth. The pseudoscientific endeavour of flood geology has been developed to suggest mechanisms that could permit this. Early ideas were that an orbiting vapor canopy collapsed, generating extreme rainfall. More recently, it has been proposed that the rapid movement of tectonic plates was responsible for the flood.

Finally, the link you supplied does not imply anything about a young earth.

It doesn't to everyone, but it does to anyone who knows that most people who believe that God created humans 10,000 years ago are young earth creationists.

YEC put the dating of the world to about 6,000 years ago. So that would suggest that your statement simply is wrong.

No, you are wrong again. Consider the following from the same Wikipedia article:

Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief that Heavens, Earth, and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago. Its primary adherents are Christians and Jews who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs.

 

[Agnostic75]

.......the link you supplied does not imply anything about a young earth.

Yes it does. That link is at Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation. It says that in 2010, 40% of Americans believed that "God created man pretty much in his present form within the last 10,000 years or so." Most people who believe that also believe that the story of Adam and Eve is true, that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred.

It is quite natural and common for biblical literalists to accept all of those things.

 

[fallingblood]

Yes it does. That link is at Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation. It says that in 2010, 40% of Americans believed that "God created man pretty much in his present form within the last 10,000 years or so." Most people who believe that also believe that the story of Adam and Eve is true, that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred.

It is quite natural and common for biblical literalists to accept all of those things.

We aren't necessarily even talking about Biblical literalists. We could be talking about people who accept creationism as well as evolution. We don't know as the survey doesn't say.

You have shown absolutely not evidence that these same people believe that the story of Adam and Eve is true, that the earth is young, or that a global flood occurred. The study suggests none of that. It doesn't even suggest that those people are Biblical literalists.

You are trying to make this survey say something that it simply doesn't. It doesn't support your position.

 

[fallingblood]

I already gave the link and quoted it in my post #15. The link is Creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. That link says that 40% of the people who were polled believed that a global flood occurred. The other link that I quoted says that 40% of the people who were polled believed the God created humans pretty much as they are within the last 10,000 years or so. Logically, most people in both groups believe that a global flood occurred, and that the earth is about 6,000 - 10,000 years old.

I have to wonder if you read the Gallup poll at all.

Because the Gallup poll in question said nothing about the global flood. And when the wiki page talks about the global flood, they give no study that showed the percentage of those who accepted it. In fact, even the questions that the Gallup poll used, said nothing about a flood. So I have no idea how Wiki is getting it's numbers because it certainly wasn't in the poll they cited.

Also, just because both polls said 40%, you can't assume that they are the same individuals. Really, you're not supporting your case at all.

No, you are wrong. Consider the following:

Young Earth creationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It mentions the global flood just once. And it stated that YECers accept a global flood. It doesn't say that those who accept a global flood are YECers. So, no, according to your source, I'm not necessarily wrong.

Someone who believes in the global flood is not necessarily a YEC. Your source does not say that.

It doesn't to everyone, but it does to anyone who knows that most people who believe that God created humans 10,000 years ago are young earth creationists.

You haven't shown that to be true. You're sources don't show that to be true. Nothing you have provided show that to be true. You have the burden of proof here.

No, you are wrong again. Consider the following from the same Wikipedia article:

Why not read it yourself. It doesn't agree with me. It says about 6,000 to 10,000. I said about 6,000.

Really though, you aren't supporting your case.

 

[Agnostic75]

YEC's put the dating of the world to about 6,000 years ago. So that would suggest that your statement [about 10,000 years ago] is simply wrong.

No, the Wikipedia article says from 5,700 years to 10,000 years, not just 10,000 years. Here is the quote again:

Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief that Heavens, Earth, and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago. Its primary adherents are Christians and Jews who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs.

[The Wikipedia article] mentions the global flood just once. And it stated that YECers accept a global flood. It doesn't say that those who accept a global flood are YECers. So, no, according to your source, I'm not necessarily wrong.

A fact that is stated only once is still a fact.

You previously said "also, it is not obvious that those who believe in a global flood are YEC. The two don't go hand in hand. So I think you're wrong there as well."

Let's call belief in YEC Premise 1, and belief in a global flood Premise 2. Most Christians who accept either one of those premises accept both of them. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the two do go hand in hand.

I request that you find several Christians who believe that God created humans pretty much as they are today about 10,000 years ago who are not also young earth creationists, and do not believe that a global flood occurred.

 

[fallingblood]

[

A fact that is stated only once is still a fact.

But it was never stated. What you said was never stated. It never stated that those who believe in the global flood are YEC. Never once did it say that.

You previously said "also, it is not obvious that those who believe in a global flood are YEC. The two don't go hand in hand. So I think you're wrong there as well."

Let's call belief in YEC Premise 1, and belief in a global flood Premise 2. Most Christians who accept either one of those premises accept both of them. Therefore, it is quite obvious that the two do go hand in hand.

You haven't shown that to be true. You have not shown one piece of evidence that that is true. Unless you can back up your statement, then there is no reason to believe it. You have the burden of proof. And just repeating yourself over and over again simply is not going to convince me. And logical fallacies are not going to convince me either.

I request that you find several Christians who believe that God created humans pretty much as they are today about 10,000 years ago who are not also young earth creationists, and do not believe that a global flood occurred.

I was one such Christian. My dad, and the churches that he has gone to, are such Christians. I know from experience that you're simply wrong.

And really, all you're doing is trying to manipulate data that simply, in no way, is saying what you claim it says.

 

[Agnostic75]

I was one such Christian. My dad, and the churches that he has gone to, are such Christians. I know from experience that you're simply wrong.

Please provide the name of a church where a lot of people believe that God created humans pretty much as they are about 10,000 years ago, but do not believe that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred.

If such churches exist, that is fine, but I am not aware of any. If there are any, I assume that there are very few of them. I am always happy to learn more.

 

[fallingblood]

Please provide the name of a church where a lot of people believe that God created humans pretty much as they are about 10,000 years ago, but do not believe that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred.

If such churches exist, that is fine, but I am not aware of any. If there are any, I assume that there are very few of them. I am always happy to learn more.

Faith Family Church. They were such a church. Now, this really doesn't solve anything. You still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

 

[Agnostic75]

Faith Family Church. They were such a church. Now, this really doesn't solve anything. You still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

Are you referring to Faith Family Church in Shiloh, Illinois? If not, where is it? I need the name and location of a church that I can check out in order to verify your claim. I am not saying that you did not tell the truth. You might simply be mistaken. You made a claim. I am merely asking you for a source that backs up your claim.

If there are such Christians, I assume that they are a very small minority.

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to fallingblood: You said "also, it is not obvious that those who believe in a global flood are YEC. The two don't go hand in hand."

Do you dispute my premises that 1) most people who believe that the earth is young also believe that a global flood occurred, and that 2) most people who believe that a global flood occurred also believe that the earth is young?

I provided a poll that shows that 40% of the people who were polled believe that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred. You have not provided any polls, nor can you, that show that there are more than a mere handful of people who accept only one of those beliefs. I doubt that you would be able to produce even a mere handful of people who only accept one of those claims. I assume that everyone at these forums who accepts one of those claims accepts the other claim. Would you like for me to start a new thread and conduct a poll? If so, great, and I would also like to conduct some polls at some other religious discussion websites.

 

[Agnostic75]

Faith Family Church. They were such a church.

No, I need the name and location of a church that I can check out in order to verify your claim. I am not saying that you did not tell the truth. You might just be mistaken. It is reasonable for me to ask you for sources that back up your claims.

 

[Agnostic75]

Edit: Deletion of unnecessary post.

 

[outhouse]

Message to fallingblood: You said "also, it is not obvious that those who believe in a global flood are YEC. The two don't go hand in hand."

Do you dispute my premises that 1) most people who believe that the earth is young also believe that a global flood occurred, and that 2) most people who believe that a global flood occurred also believe that the earth is young?

I provided a poll that shows that 40% of the people who were polled believe that the earth is young, and that a global flood occurred. You have not provided any polls, nor can you, that show that there are more than a mere handful of people who accept only one of those beliefs. I doubt that you would be able to produce even a mere handful of people who only accept one of those claims. I assume that everyone at these forums who accepts one of those claims accepts the other claim. Would you like for me to start a new thread and conduct a poll? If so, great, and I would also like to conduct some polls at some other religious discussion websites.

You know

Ill throw in.


YEC and flood mythers do go hand in hand.


I thought your poll was very clear in this respect. weird

 

[Agnostic75]

You know, I'll throw in. YEC and flood mythers do go hand in hand. I thought your poll was very clear in this respect. Weird.

Thanks. If necesssary, I could easily provide further proof by conducting my own polls at these forums, and at some other religious discussion forums.