The god of the Bible should be seeking forgiveness

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't know where you are from, but in my country, parents are not held at fault for the behavior of their children.

Oddly enough though, I feel that if a geneticist (or company) were to irresponsibly create and release a genetic line of highly invasive, quick-breeding, destructive rodents that wrought havoc on a large percentage of a city/area/state/country/etc., and people knew the source and knew who was responsible for the creation of these animals, then I think some sort of recompense would indeed be sought, or at the very least, blame cast, and an attempt made at justice of some kind being exacted for damage caused. Is this not a better analogy (especially given your idea that god is "very much above and beyond such things") than the parent to child idea that you brought to bear? Not to mention that parents can be very responsible for children under a certain age, and when those children become adults, then they are basically the peers of their parents, and are more equal "agents" acting upon the world of their own volition - hence the reason they become responsible for their own actions.

Guns are a different matter, because they have actual application beyond the violence they are sometimes used for. Just like a knife or a car can be used to commit grievous acts - and yet we hold no person who created these things accountable - because it was not their intent that their product be used this way. However, if a company decided to craft a gun that had a sight built onto it, within the reticle which was the silhouette of a human head, well, then things might be different (responsibility or blame-wise) if we started seeing people using these weapons against other civilians, don't you think?

​

 

[sojourner]

So it is ok for god to commit the crimes attributed to it, like the flood? It supposedly created human nature, so anything humans do wrong is its fault.

Reread the texts.

 

[sojourner]

Humans should aim to be much better people than the god character in the Bible. It doesn't know the meaning of the word, 'goodness'.

“The eyes of all turn to you [God], and you give them their food in due season. You open wide your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” From the Psalms.

 

[We Never Know]

Normally, no. It's like hating a non existing thing. But when someone says Jehovah is moral and just, I will challenge the claim. Asserting the superior morality of humans today is one of the ways I do this. Of course it basically saying we're more moral today than our bronze age ancestors, but the claim is it's not human morality from then, but gods just and righteous judgements.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to give you or anyone a hard time. I'm just saying I see no point in attacking a mythical being.
It seems the attacks I see here(in the forum in general) have became more of a personal attack of the other posters beliefs more than the mythical being itself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe some of you have a self-conscious believe that you hide or are unaware of.

So, challenging a claim, even if you don't believe the basis or premesis of the claim (which is why they are typically challenged), makes you have a "self-conscious" belief? That's just as pathetic as Evangelics swearing up and down and insisting I am miserable because my life contradicts their world view and narrative.
Could be good thing though. It would mean Creationist secretly accept evolution. But they dont.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shadow Wolf, you defend satan in so many threads. Don't pretend you would even know a murderer if you saw one.

Actually I do know one.

 

[We Never Know]

So, challenging a claim, even if you don't believe the basis or premesis of the claim (which is why they are typically challenged), makes you have a "self-conscious" belief? That's just as pathetic as Evangelics swearing up and down and insisting I am miserable because my life contradicts their world view and narrative.
Could be good thing though. It would mean Creationist secretly accept evolution. But they dont.

I don't see it as challenging a claim. It's challenging a belief which is based on faith and can't be supported. Which again is why I said it's a attack on their belief which IMO they can believe in what they want. It's not up to me to tear it down or try to take it away from them.
On the flip side I guess we all could believe or reject everything in the same way and just go through life as a bunch of identical zombies without having any different beliefs, idea's or thoughts. .

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God is not a human randomly acting out of impure, selfish motives. Everything the Creator God does is done in all-knowing wisdom and love for His creation., whether you or I comprehend it or not.

Yet, that's just something you say, and to be quite frank about it, there isn't a single shred of evidence to suggest any such thing. In fact, when you add up all the evidence, it really does point to exactly the opposite. Anyone who has really read human history, and has an understanding of the natural world, can see that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Actually I do know one.

I had one for a roommate!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see it as challenging a claim. It's challenging a belief which is based on faith and can't be supported. Which again is why I said it's a attack on their belief which IMO they can believe in what they want. It's not up to me to tear it down or try to take it away from them.

They can believe what they want, but it doesn't make them right. Anyone who says Jehovah is good should be made aware of his moral failures throughout the Bible. If it's not challenged, we'll never move beyond. Especially since Evangelicals and Fundamentalists have long demonstrated they are willing and capable bullies. If they weren't challenged, it might still be illegal to be gay.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I had one for a roommate!

The one I know is a family friend who just got out of prison a few years ago.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The flood was judgment of persistent evil. According to the scriptures God gave over 100 years of warning and opportunity for people to repent and turn from their wickedness. God created humans beings in His image, which means they had the ability to learn and follow His loving wisdom, developing qualities of love, peace, kindness, joy, etc. (But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...Gal. 5:22) Yet, humanity rejected God's wisdom leading to sin. marring the image of God, ruining their nature and behaving in self-centered, harmful ways. Anything humans do wrong is their own fault.

And for bloody sure, that includes absolutely everybody on earth, and all the animals that lived on the land, too! Even the babies born minutes before they were all lovingly slaughtered by God. Not a soul in all the earth, with the exception, very oddly, or Noah, his wife, their 3 children and their wives were worthy of anything, but that little group of 8 were the only perfect people on an entire planet. Including, as I said, the ones not old enough to face any sort of judgement at all.

That Christians actually believe this makes me wonder, how I wonder...

 

[We Never Know]

They can believe what they want, but it doesn't make them right. Anyone who says Jehovah is good should be made aware of his moral failures throughout the Bible. If it's not challenged, we'll never move beyond. Especially since Evangelicals and Fundamentalists have long demonstrated they are willing and capable bullies. If they weren't challenged, it might still be illegal to be gay.

I'm not arguing right or wrong. It's their right to believe and IMO I'm wrong for trying to tear that down and insult them.
Anyone that says god is good, how are you going to change their mind by attacking their belief, attacking their god? You won't which is why I said it pointless to attack a mythical being. It won't matter.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not arguing right or wrong. It's their right to believe and IMO I'm wrong for trying to tear that down and insult them.
Anyone that says god is good, how are you going to change their mind by attacking their belief, attacking their god? You won't which is why I said it pointless to attack a mythical being. It won't matter.

Even when it comes to real people who exist, it can be difficult to change the mind of a supporter. Is it then pointless to debate them?

 

[We Never Know]

Even when it comes to real people who exist, it can be difficult to change the mind of a supporter. Is it then pointless to debate them?

Trying to change the mind of anyone by attacking what they believe in is pretty much pointless. Ask an abused wife. They can be talked to about what you see different but not attacked or trying to be made to see because you just push them away. That's the fear of change. They have to do it on their own.

Edit.

Let me add to this. I catch wild horses, break them and train them. I don't earn their trust by attacking them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm so glad that we have you to be the guiding light of what man should act like and the wisdom we should all have.

Ken, it is my honest belief that we all have the capacity to be our own guiding light as to what is good and bad (with the exception of people who are damaged enough to need help and/or restraints for the protection of society). And I do not believe that it requires God to understand good and bad. In fact, far too many times in history, humans have rejected their own knowledge of what's good or evil in order to carry out what they wrongly supposed was the "will of God."

If you can imagine what it would be like to stand on the kindling at the stake as the fire is lit under you, or to languish in prison for nothing more than your beliefs, or to slave in the fields or go hungry and in rags to the factory before dawn before you were 10 years old...if you can imagine living life on the margin of society excluded from the goods and possibilities available to the mainstream, or the midnight knock comes at the door, as your children are torn from you and marched towards the gas chamber...

See, in the absence of direct experience of hardship, suffering, exclusion, enslavement, discrimination, persecution and murder, the next best resource is a moral imagination. I have one of those, and I use it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If the god character in the Bible exists, and all the unpleasant things attributed to it have any credence, it should be on its knees begging the human race to forgive it.

Agreed. If ithis alleged god created a torture chamber, filled with demons that it also created, and throws people into it for not sucking up to it, it would be just, if people had the power, to cage that god in its own hell for eternal torture and let those demons have their way with it. If anybody disagrees, please present the dissenting argument..

He doesn’t allow evil to continue forever

The Christian god is evil. It is the author of evil. Is that the one you worship?

God's plan is to fix man's mess

Man's plan - or at least the ones who have transcended religious needs - is to fix the mess religion has made of our world.

faith is hope skepticism is death.

Faith is irrational and can lead to death. Skepticism is one of the best ideas man has ever concocted. It can eventually free us all from the bondage of religion and superstition. For now, only a minority have reached that pinnacle.

it's a bad idea to not believe and resort to hate instead of pleasure.

The most hateful people I know are Christian. Who else is teaching things more hateful than that there is not one good unbeliever. Are unbelievers passing that message along about Christians? No. Such people are more moral than such Christians. I prefer them as neighbors.

You put you self above god?

I put myself above the superstitious talking about their superstitions.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Right... and we are doing so good at being "better people".

Syria

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Baltimore


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San Francisco

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Sex Trade

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Hey... but I'm not worried, we have you to show us the right way and your insight and wisdom, by the OP evidence, means there is hope for this world -- ALL HAIL @JJ50

An interesting post, and you are quite right, @JJ50 isn't wise and insightful enough to fix all those ills. Neither are you, neither am I, neither is any human. Yet, as I remember that God is all good AND all knowing AND all powerful, I am forced to ask...why do those problems you depict still plague us? I wonder how many people in Baltimore, or San Francisco, or victims of the sex trade, regularly plead for help from on high, to be answered with.....silence.

 

[We Never Know]

Agreed. If ithis alleged god created a torture chamber, filled with demons that it also created, and throws people into it for not sucking up to it, it would be just, if people had the power, to cage that god in its own hell for eternal torture and let those demons have their way with it. If anybody disagrees, please present the dissenting argument..



The Christian god is evil. It is the author of evil. Is that the one you worship?



Man's plan - or at least the ones who have transcended religious needs - is to fix the mess religion has made of our world.



Faith is irrational and can lead to death. Skepticism is one of the best ideas man has ever concocted. It can eventually free us all from the bondage of religion and superstition. For now, only a minority have reached that pinnacle.



The most hateful people I know are Christian. Who else is teaching things more hateful than that there is not one good unbeliever. Are unbelievers passing that message along about Christians? No. Such people are more moral than such Christians. I prefer them as neighbors.



I put myself above the superstitious talking about their superstitions.

Man wrote the bible. Man is evil, destructive, a liar, double tongued, greedy, murderous, spiteful, egocentric, etc. Dividing man into different groups doesn't change what man is. The end

 

[leov]

An interesting post, and you are quite right, @JJ50 isn't wise and insightful enough to fix all those ills. Neither are you, neither am I, neither is any human. Yet, as I remember that God is all good AND all knowing AND all powerful, I am forced to ask...why do those problems you depict still plague us? I wonder how many people in Baltimore, or San Francisco, or victims of the sex trade, regularly plead for help from on high, to be answered with.....silence.

This is the way the system works, we humans are to fix evil, nobody else.