• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hi there, hope you remember me. I am surprised you are still stuck with Ibn Ishaq even after I have explained it to you earlier in a different thread. Let me explain one more time....
Who can forget the Baha'i guys?

Ibn Ishaq was written before Sahih Bukhari/Muslim (the most authentic Hadith collections) and did not go through the same rigorous Isnad(science of chain of narrators) validation as the Sahih(authentics) hadiths. That's why we are not obliged to accept it.
I am not bound by your standards. Secular scholars consider it reliable. Even Wiki said it was the most respected biography. If you show the statements he made that I posted false then fine. I am very familiar with Islam's rejection of anything they do not like and the arbitrary reasons for doing so. Either the event happened or it didn't. Yelling foul about web sites or biographers doesn't change the fact it is a very well known event.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
This is very well known. I do not have time to dig this up today but will do so if necessary soon. I have never even heard a Muslim apologist deny the event. Are you actually saying that an extremely early and respected biographer of Muhammad made this up? I can't believe that is what you are saying.


You are something else. If I was biased I would deny that these wars took place in the bible. I do not. They are just not relevant to a Jesus (as a man) verses Muhammad discussion concerning what we know they did. Allah verses God maybe not here.

I am through discussing events that happened over three thousand years ago in a discussion about Jesus and Muhammands record as men. Bring that up some where it applies. I have shown that Muhammads actions are far more consistent with a power hungry, money grubber than any heroic warrior for God. There are countless stories of his ordering executions for reasons that boggle the mind. One woman had her baby stripped from her arms and was then stabbed. One old man who taunted Muhammad by makeing up verses just as good as anything in the Quran was killed. I am not comparing Muhammad to Gideon, Saul, or David. I am comparing him to Christ.

For the last time witness testimony is viewed as evidence by the historical method, modern law, textual criticism, and theological exegesis. What could there possibly be besides what the bible reliably gives for historical miracles? You demand a time macine or deny everything I guess. I bet even if you saw them you would still deny it. People did for the same reasons you do through out the bible.



If you wish tyo declare the marriage of a 6 year old girl who is not old enough to agree or dissagree ok that is on you. I prefer to not call obvious acts of evil as though they are good even if I need to to support an unsupportable position. I will add the marriage and sexual assault of a minor to the list of things that must be defended in order to support your position. Is anything off that list. If this isn't I don't know what could be. If you want the bibles stance on the issue why didn't you say? It is after puberty. The earliest age I have ever heard given for this was 12 but I imagine it was normally on up in the teens. It is easily found if you want it. In fact if you will promise to abandon your stance on Muhammad I will dig it up. If not why should I?


You are saying that the Bible is literally Historical facts.
My response: that would be true only if the Authors of the Bible had said, they are writing a literal Historical Book. Or, there were other Historians outside of the Christian community living around the time of Jesus, who confirmed the Bible is a History Book.
Which of course we know this is not the case. What Bible Author claims is that, the Scriptures are inspired by God. That means there are spiritual realities in the Book.
Off course, there are Histories too, but not everything in the Bible is a literal historical fact. There is no proof for that. This is Your understanding.

Regarding the age of Aisha, there is no proof that exactly at what age the consummation happened and whether she had passed the Age of puberty. So, your accusation can not be proved. Like I said, your position only comes from a biased and mislead view from some of the fanatic Christian Leaders.
Sometimes within the Moslem Community, there has been religious leaders who made up certain traditions for Muhammad in order to justify their own wishes, to say that is what the prophet did, so we can do too.

Regarding comparing Jesus and Muhammad, based on their own claims, both of them only did whatever God asked them to do. Both of them said what God asked them to say.
This can be seen from both saying of Jesus in the Bible, as well as verses of Quran.

In terms of Miracles, although I don't like the idea of comparing, but I would say, Muhammad had a better Miracle than Jesus. Because, the Quran, the Miracle of Muhammad had stayed without changes, and we can see it today, but even if Jesus did any physical miracles, we cannot see it, becasue it does not exist today.
But this has nothing to do with Muhammad being better than Jesus, it is only God's Will. God gave any Miracle He wanted to them.

As regards to Jesus did not kill anybody, but Muhammad commanded to kill. Moses also commanded to kill many. They only did what God asked them to do according to the scriptures. Had God asked Jesus to kill them He would have. Moreover, the Bible talks about Hell Fire, and Jesus has the keys for it, according to scriptures. So, according to your literal interpretation He burns people there.
 
Last edited:

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
What are you talking about? You and I both know the Quran says it is in pure Arabic. It is a very simply matter to find the culture where words were initiated. This is not obscure story it is a very simple idea. The Quran claims it is in pure Arabic and it has words from other cultures it is. It is very simple.

I will provide the words but the Quran isn't true unless shown false. That is not how this works. THe Quran makes extraordinary claims and so it must provide extra ordinary words. I will do the job that the Quran should do but it is backwards.


[FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Tafaq'a [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Romanian word means" intended to do", as in The Heights chapter[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Bold](Surat Al-A'raf) 22 [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-toar [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Syrian word means "the mountain", as in the Cow chapter (Surat Al-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Baqarah) 63[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Raq'im [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Romanian word means "the tablet" as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Kahf) 9[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Ta-Ha [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word as in Ta-Ha chapter[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Senin [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Hebrew word means "beautiful"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Bold]-"[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]As-Sijjîl [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "the book" as in the Prophets chapter (Surat Al-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Anbiya') 104[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Istabrek [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]"is a Persian word means "the thick" as in The Smoke chapter (Surat Ad-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Dukhan) 53[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Soundos [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Indian word means" the thin curtain" as in The Smoke chapter[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold](Surat Ad-Dukhan) 53[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Sariah[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Greek word means " a small river" as in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) 24[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Meshkat [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " a niche in the wall" as in the light [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]chapter(Surat An-Nur)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- "[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Jouhan'm [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " the hell" as in the Spoils of War(Surat Al-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Anfal) 36[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Zakât [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " the tax from money"[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Sajjîl [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "the stony mud"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Ad-Durie [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " a shinning planet"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Nashet-Al lail [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " wake up by night" as in The One [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]wrapped in Garments chapter (Surat Al-Muzzammil) 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- ' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]keflain [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " two folds" as the iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid)[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]28[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Q'swara [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " the lion" as in The One Enveloped [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]chapter (Surat Al-Muddathir) 51[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Melah Al-Okhra [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means "the first religion" as in Saad chapter [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]( Surat saad) 7[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- ' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Wara'hom [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means "behind them " as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]Kahf) [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]-' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Bata'nha [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Coptic word means " its external look" as in The Most Gracious [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]chapter(Surat Ar-Rahman) 54[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Uho'd [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " one " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]As-Sam'd [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means" inclusive of all characters"[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Abareeq' [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means "vessels" as in The Event chapter (Surat Al-Waqi'ah) 18 [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]-' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Injeel [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Greek words means " annunciation" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Tabout [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]' is a Coptic word means " a box "[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-" [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Saradeq' [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means " a tent"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Surah [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Syrian word means " a book chapter "[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- " [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Al-Ferdous [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Persian word means " the garden"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]- ' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]At-Taghout [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is an Ethiopian word means " the opposites"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Bold]-' [/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]Mao'un [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Bold]" is a Hebrew word means " the pot"[/FONT]​



[FONT=Arial,Bold]Those are only few examples of the non-Arabic foreign words included in the quran,[/FONT]
http://www.fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/46-Episode.pdf
Do me a favor if you find a mistake or two do not then condemn the whole list. That is cheating. If God says his book is pure Arabic then it should not be only 99% Arabic.


I do not see the relevance.

Done.​

I do not care what someone thinks a word is I care only about what culture produced it.​

If that is true then they are Arabic I do not care if someone thinks they are English. Algebra existed in ancient Greece. It may bean Arabic word but the field isn't.​

I never said it was. As well a word used by Arabs does not make it Arabic.
No it isn't it is even a field of study called etymology.​

What? I did not that different languages do not exist. This has nothing to do with the issue. What happened to the other 4 or 5 questions I had?​

You did reply nothing,where is your evidences.

For example the word Tafaq'a you claim it to be from the Romans,based on what ?
how did you know that such word before thousands of years was Romanians not Arabic.

Show me your evidence in the old bible and torah that those words exist before the quran,so we can discuss if that what you are telling is the truth.

i'll not pass to the next questions while the first one still unsettled.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You did reply nothing,where is your evidences.

For example the word Tafaq'a you claim it to be from the Romans,based on what ?
how did you know that such word before thousands of years was Romanians not Arabic.

Show me your evidence in the old bible and torah that those words exist before the quran,so we can discuss if that what you are telling is the truth.

i'll not pass to the next questions while the first one still unsettled.
So you violated both conditions I mentioned. I said the Quran made the claim and it is required to provide the truth. You said even though I provided the origin of the words I must get a time machine and bring back the man who inveted the word or the Quran is correct. Not hardly. I then said to not find an issue with one and then dismiss everything. You do not even find a problem with one. You simply said I did not prove that a problem might not exist with one and dismissed the rest. I know these rediculous tactics so well I can almost have the debate with myself. The Quran is not Pure Arabic until it proves that it is. I might look these up but I do not promise to do your job for you. I suppose Ibn ' Abbas and Suyuti who both said that the Quran contains Persian, Ethiopian, and Nabatean words are anti Islamic as well.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So you violated both conditions I mentioned. I said the Quran made the claim and it is required to provide the truth. You said even though I provided the origin of the words I must get a time machine and bring back the man who inveted the word or the Quran is correct. Not hardly. I then said to not find an issue with one and then dismiss everything. You do not even find a problem with one. You simply said I did not prove that a problem might not exist with one and dismissed the rest. I know these rediculous tactics so well I can almost have the debate with myself. The Quran is not Pure Arabic until it proves that it is. I might look these up but I do not promise to do your job for you. I suppose Ibn ' Abbas and Suyuti who both said that the Quran contains Persian, Ethiopian, and Nabatean words are anti Islamic as well.

Lol, Ibn Abbas and Suyuti said so,
so i guess you do believe that Santa Claus is real and if i said to you that i saw yesterday a flying donkey,then you'll believe me,because i said so.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Who can forget the Baha'i guys?

I am not bound by your standards. Secular scholars consider it reliable. Even Wiki said it was the most respected biography. If you show the statements he made that I posted false then fine. I am very familiar with Islam's rejection of anything they do not like and the arbitrary reasons for doing so. Either the event happened or it didn't. Yelling foul about web sites or biographers doesn't change the fact it is a very well known event.

I am not Bahai. That says it all about your memory and falsehood that you preach. Yes, if those statements are not in Sahih Hadith books then they are not acceptable - unlike Christian scriptures which include anything and everything from anyone in their scripture - Muslims take great care in keeping it pure and authentic.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
New International Version (©1984)
He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.
1 Kings 11:5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.
This is concerning his idolatry. There are dozens of them but if you arbitrarily dismiss one I am not bothering with the rest. If you are not familiar with his idolatry you really don't know the bible.
Every sunday school child knows that story of David and Bathsheeba. He had her husband Uria (I think) killed so he could have her. Samuel or Nathan told him a parable about the situation and David condemned the man in the story which he didn't know was him. He said the man should die. God took his son for that sin. I did not feel like looking it up. It should not be necessary.

This is the reply to your claim that the Prophets of God are sinners:




"How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him "Good Master." Christ answered, "Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God." This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.
To conclude, the addresses in the form of reproach which are in the Holy Books, though apparently directed to the Prophets—that is to say, to the Manifestations of God—in reality are intended for the people. This will become evident and clear to you when you have diligently examined the Holy Books."

- Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions



Being that my understanding is by and large the same as virtually all scholars on the subject I am afraid this isn't the case. There is quite simply no justification for your view, but plenty for mine. That includes scholar's, commentator's, the biblical characters themselves, the plain reading of the texts, an indepth reasearch of the texts, accepted biblical exegesis. You are in a mightly small crowd.
I am sorry, but your learning is not from infallible men. Those scollars, although outwardly famous, but they are still regular human being, they are not Prophets of God and do not have access to the knowledge of God. I am fortunate to have Baha'u'llah as my teacher. The Source of knowledge.
But this is not to discourage you my friend.


The Quran is so vague on the issue, that it seems every Muslim takes a different stance. I accept thier interpretations of their scriptures over a person whom I know gets the bible wrong in every instance. Professional Muslim debaters have said that he was substituted for, he only swooned, that there never was a crucifixion, and that he died physically but not spiritually. Any thing goes but the truth. I am not interested in what non contemporary people say about the event, the eye witnesses are plenty.
You ignore that according to Quran, some of its verses are Figurative (See Quran, verse 3:7) It also says no one knows its interpretation except for God.
Another verse says, when the Promised Day comes, God will reveal the interpretation of Quran (see 7:53, Translation by RodWell (a Christian))
The Traditions of Muhammad says the Promised Day is 1000 years after Islam, which is the year of Baha'i Revelation (not 1 year sooner or later). Yes, its interpretation came. So, you are not using the right source of intepretation.



What are you talking about? The bible its self says the earth isn't flat. I do not read middle age Catholic interpretations. I read revered and studied church fathers, modern textual scholars even the critics, and proffessional theologians. I do not know what you are talking about.

That's what i am saying. They once in a while realized their interpretation is not correct and then modify it. You have no reason to say the current literal interpretation will not even be modified by your church in the future.
The point is your source of interpretation is not infallible.
Even the story of Creation in 6 days, which is not even scientific, does not work with your literal interpretation.

That was directed to one church that was having trouble with this particular issue. It is no general comand. Besides silence is the least imposition made in Islam. The same way it also says for men to submit to women.
Historically I am not sure if all Christians agree with you.


Not slavery as you know it. As in the diabolical kind that Muslims trafficked in all over africa. It was almost always voluntary in Israel.
No it does not allow it. God punished many for it and it always resulted in sin and misery. He did tolerate it to some extent in that he didn't instantly kill any one who did it. Jesus if you will remember is the subject and he did not do it.
Read the Bible. It is full of historical slavery stories, and it does not say even yea shall not have slaves.


I have experienced miracles I do not need to witness every single one to know they are real. The testimony in the bible that meets every modern standard of historical methods and Jurice Prudence as said by their top scholars would be suffecient even if I had not.
You really expect people to believe you?
 
Last edited:

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and spritual; and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. -Albert Einstein

If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism. -Albert Einstein

For al-amiyr, Einstein, possibly the greatest scientific thinker of all time, praised Buddhism. Should we take that as universal, objective criteria that Buddhism is the greatest religion? No, no we shouldn't, it would be foolish to do so.
 

al-amiyr

Active Member
For al-amiyr, Einstein, possibly the greatest scientific thinker of all time, praised Buddhism. Should we take that as universal, objective criteria that Buddhism is the greatest religion? No, no we shouldn't, it would be foolish to do so.
I have always highly respected the Great Buddha. But he did not take up many roles in the society. By greatness I am speaking about the totality of achievements.
The Qur'aan says that all the messengers were from God and we must make no differences among them.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
I have always highly respected the Great Buddha. But he did not take up many roles in the society. By greatness I am speaking about the totality of achievements.
The Qur'aan says that all the messengers were from God and we must make no differences among them.
It's rather amusing that a messenger of God would deny God's existence.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Algebra existed in ancient Greece. It may bean Arabic word but the field isn't.

You are trying here even to distort a historical fact in order to deny that muslim brought Algebra to the world.


Who Invented Algebra?

What would the world be without Algebra? It is a subject that is studied all over the world, and it is a discipline within math that is responsible for many discoveries and understandings. The man who invented Algebra was name Al Khwarizmi. He was a Muslim mathematician living in 820 A.D, and he wrote a book that displayed the beginnings of Algebra through problems and equations. Without his seminal work, algebra may not have been developed as it was.

Reference : Who Invented Algebra?

Al'Khwarizmi was an Islamic mathematician who wrote on Hindu-Arabic numerals and was among the first to use zero as a place holder in positional base notation. The word algorithm derives from his name. His algebra treatise Hisab al-jabr w'al-muqabala gives us the word algebra and can be considered as the first book to be written on algebra.

Reference : Al-Khwarizmi summary
 

al-amiyr

Active Member
A most excellent point! I frubal you toooooo!!!
Does Islam really see Buddha as a messenger from God?
Does Islam recognize all religious leaders as messengers?
Many great scholars of Islaam hold The honourable Buddha as an inspired and an enlightened one of God. 300 000 000 Buddhists and their descendants have already accepted Muhammad as the Last Messenger Prophet of God. Just check all the Muslim countries who were Buddhist before.
 
Top