The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[Lady B]

Muslims believe that the quran is %100 correct while the bible isn't(for muslims at least) as well as they admitted that not all hadith are % 100 correct.even some muslims whom are called quranic don't rely on any hadith and in my humble opinion that is also wrong,we shouldn't neglect all the hadith,but to accept what is in line and do agree with the quran.

The most important for muslims is the quran which is god's words.

So again, can Islam not agree on what hadiths are corrupt and which are reliable? Is this so hard to accomplish?

To my ears Islam is saying this: Koran first, sunna and hadiths. But if any hadith contradicts the Koran or is just unrealistic in content, dismiss it.

How is the new convert going to distinguish which is false or which is reliable if Islam as a whole cannot?

Yes I understand you dismiss the bible as unreliable, that is another thread entirely, But more importantly you are dismissing parts of your own religion.

Do you understand my reasoning? It is very hard to debate anyone on their religion if whenever a problem arises the opponent dismisses the refuted source.

 

[FearGod]

Do you understand my reasoning? It is very hard to debate anyone on their religion if whenever a problem arises the opponent dismisses the refuted source.

But no,i don't agree with you at this point,because whatever is in the quran,i will admit it and discuss it freely.


Hadith have been recorded longtime after Mohammed pbuh death,whereas the quran was recorded at his presence and no chances for any mistakes.

 

[al-amiyr]

So again, can Islam not agree on what hadiths are corrupt and which are reliable? Is this so hard to accomplish?

To my ears Islam is saying this: Koran first, sunna and hadiths. But if any hadith contradicts the Koran or is just unrealistic in content, dismiss it.

How is the new convert going to distinguish which is false or which is reliable if Islam as a whole cannot?

Yes I understand you dismiss the bible as unreliable, that is another thread entirely, But more importantly you are dismissing parts of your own religion.

Do you understand my reasoning? It is very hard to debate anyone on their religion if whenever a problem arises the opponent dismisses the refuted source.

Up to now I did not discuss anything about the ahaadiyth (hadiths).
We must first ask this question:
1. What are the hadiyths?
2.Are they important?

There has never been a great scholar of Islaam who has rejected the hadiyth. There are over twenty thousand hadiyths and if you have not studied them all you are not regarded as one who can speak about them. They will sound contradictory. Why?
Because the hadiyth is the life story of the prophet as witnessed by those who knew him e.g.

How many times must the hands,mouth,face, ears,head,arms,feet be washed before praying?

Lets go check the books of hadiyth.

Report 011 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet once before praying.

Report 032 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet twice before praying.

Report 043 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet thrice before praying.

Does that sound contradictory?

Look what happened on another occasion.

Report 073 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet once before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution God has accepted.
Then the prophet washed his hands, his mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet twice before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution God is pleased with.
Then again the prophet washed his hands, his mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet thrice before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution of Abraham and the messengers.

So you see nothing contradictory. But if you had picked up a hadiyth book and read only one hadith you will then start doubting.

Before anybody speak to you about hadith ask this question, " Have you studied all the hadith?" If not then they have disqualified themselves. Do justice to the teaching of The Prophet (S+) of God.

 

[Lady B]

Up to now I did not discuss anything about the ahaadiyth (hadiths).
We must first ask this question:
1. What are the hadiyths?
2.Are they important?

There has never been a great scholar of Islaam who has rejected the hadiyth. There are over twenty thousand hadiyths and if you have not studied them all you are not regarded as one who can speak about them. They will sound contradictory. Why?
Because the hadiyth is the life story of the prophet as witnessed by those who knew him e.g.

How many times must the hands,mouth,face, ears,head,arms,feet be washed before praying?



Lets go check the books of hadiyth.

Report 011 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet once before praying.

Report 032 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet twice before praying.

Report 043 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet thrice before praying.

Does that sound contradictory?

Look what happened on another occasion.

Report 073 Collected by AAA
X reported from Y that Z said that he saw the prophet (S+) wash his hands, his
mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet once before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution God has accepted.
Then the prophet washed his hands, his mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet twice before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution God is pleased with.
Then again the prophet washed his hands, his mouth, his face, his ears,his head, his arms, his feet thrice before praying.
Then he said that that is an ablution of Abraham and the messengers.

So you see nothing contradictory. But if you had picked up a hadiyth book and read only one hadith you will then start doubting.

Before anybody speak to you about hadith ask this question, " Have you studied all the hadith?" If not then they have disqualified themselves. Do justice to the teaching of The Prophet (S+) of God.

IMO this is a cop out you are saying unless one studies every hadith they cannot understand any. Perhaps on a particular subject such as, The washing for prayer, one may need all the Hadiths revolving around this subject to understand. However if the subject is " the night journey" one does not need to study the washing of hands to understand the other. And if you disqualify a person based on this ineptness It is ridiculous.

I am sorry op for going off topic, perhaps I will make a thread for this Hadith discussion. Thank you for your tolerance.

 

[Lady B]

have two !!

 

[Lady B]

But no,i don't agree with you at this point,because whatever is in the quran,i will admit it and discuss it freely.


Hadith have been recorded longtime after Mohammed pbuh death,whereas the quran was recorded at his presence and no chances for any mistakes.

and How do you know that? OHhh The Hadith tells you so....

 

[Lady B]

But no,i don't agree with you at this point,because whatever is in the quran,i will admit it and discuss it freely.


Hadith have been recorded longtime after Mohammed pbuh death,whereas the quran was recorded at his presence and no chances for any mistakes.

Actually Is it not true that after Mohamed's death the followers found large discrepancies and differences in The writings so Abu Bakr gathered all the known Koranic materials, He then edited them and decided what would go in and what would be thrown out? And when he decided on the final version he then issued an order that all existing koranic materials were to be destroyed.

 

[sojourner]

Muhammad (S+) The Greatest Human Being of All Time

Then why isn't he doing Dos Equis commerials, or featured on Dancing With the Stars?

 

[Lady B]

Then why isn't he doing Dos Equis commerials, or featured on Dancing With the Stars?

reason 1: He is kinda dead
reason 2: Muslims don't dance

 

[sojourner]

It seems to me that u are simply a....

FAN

Well...
so far, his arguments have tended to go round and round... and push a lot of hot air.

 

[sojourner]

reason 1: He is kinda dead
reason 2: Muslims don't dance

Well, there ya have it! If those things haven't happened, he can't possibly be what the OP claims.

 

[Lady B]

Well, there ya have it! If those things haven't happened, he can't possibly be what the OP claims.

Indeed , with those as credentials, I will go with Cameron Mathison ( plays Ryan Lavery on One life to live) He can dance and well He is Hot!

 

[England my lionheart]

It is only when i really looked at the history of Islam in the Qur'an and hadith that certain things stood out and made sense to the success of Islam,the battle of Badr was,in the scale of battles very small,almost a skirmish but it was important in other ways because of the particular enemies that were killed,it was perhaps the inspiration for:

Al-Anfal 8:41:

And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain, verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allâh, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)], (and also) the orphans, Al-Masâkin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allâh and in that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad SAW) on the Day of criterion (between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr) - And Allâh is Able to do all things.

This is clever,before Badr the Caravan raiding didn't go very well,after Badr things picked up on the booty obtained by fighting,of course this was a common practice in most of the world long before Islam .

Slavery,"what your right hand posseses",i do not consider this something a great Man would practice,slavery is a disgusting practice whoever enslaves.

Child Marriage 6 comsumated 9,i would hope a great Man would shun such an act.


​

 

[sojourner]

What are the objective and mutually-agreed upon attributes and achievements the define "the greatest?" What is the hard proof that Muhammed possessed these attributes or achieved these things?

 

[Lady B]

What are the objective and mutually-agreed upon attributes and achievements the define "the greatest?" What is the hard proof that Muhammed possessed these attributes or achieved these things?

We Have asked this in multiple ways with yet a response,I am beginning to think there is an agenda here......

 

[al-amiyr]

Muhammad, the most rapidly successful man in history
“Never before or since has a prophet won such success so quickly; nor has the work of a single man so rapidly and radically transformed the course of world history. Through his inspired utterances, his personal example, and the organizational framework he established for Islam, Mohammed laid the basis for a distinctive new style of life, which within the space of two centuries attracted the allegiance of a major fraction of the human race and today commands the loyalty of about one seventh of mankind.”

W.H. McNeill​

The Rise of the West (1963)​

Muhammad (S+), a universal personality or manifold of many dimensions
“- a thinker and judge, military leader and organizer, emissary of God and educator,”(Page 48)

G.E. Grunebaum​

Classical Islam A History (1963)​

“Mohammed died in 632. During his short life, he was a successful merchant, a devotee to the verge of fanaticism, a great religious teacher, and a successful military leader – the founder of an empire of great extent.”

Consolidated Encyclopaedia V.6 LEI – MUL​

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Lamartine​

[FONT=&quot]Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. II[/FONT]​

Muhammad (S+), the most misrepresented man in history
“…The lies which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man are disgraceful to ourselves only…”

[FONT=&quot]Thomas Caryle[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Heros and Hero Worship[/FONT]​

“No great religious leader has been so maligned and misrepresented, outside his religion,-“ (Page 85)

Geoffrey Parrinder​

Encountering World Religions (1987)​

 

[Lady B]

Muhammad, the most rapidly successful man in history
“Never before or since has a prophet won such success so quickly; nor has the work of a single man so rapidly and radically transformed the course of world history. Through his inspired utterances, his personal example, and the organizational framework he established for Islam, Mohammed laid the basis for a distinctive new style of life, which within the space of two centuries attracted the allegiance of a major fraction of the human race and today commands the loyalty of about one seventh of mankind.”

W.H. McNeill​

The Rise of the West (1963)​

Muhammad (S+), a universal personality or manifold of many dimensions
“- a thinker and judge, military leader and organizer, emissary of God and educator,”(Page 48)

G.E. Grunebaum​

Classical Islam A History (1963)​

“Mohammed died in 632. During his short life, he was a successful merchant, a devotee to the verge of fanaticism, a great religious teacher, and a successful military leader – the founder of an empire of great extent.”

Consolidated Encyclopaedia V.6 LEI – MUL​

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Lamartine​

[FONT=&quot]Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. II[/FONT]​

Muhammad (S+), the most misrepresented man in history
“…The lies which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man are disgraceful to ourselves only…”

[FONT=&quot]Thomas Caryle[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Heros and Hero Worship[/FONT]​

“No great religious leader has been so maligned and misrepresented, outside his religion,-“ (Page 85)

Geoffrey Parrinder​

Encountering World Religions (1987)​

Again with these reviews. In order to state as fact Mohammad was the greatest human being of all time, You are also implying for all people of all time. We are those people tooo. So What has Mohammad done outside of Islam for all mankind? More specifically , what has he done for me? For Christians for Hindu for Atheists For everyone to be in agreement with your alleged factual inclusive statement.

 

[England my lionheart]

We Have asked this in multiple ways with yet a response,I am beginning to think there is an agenda here......

Seems to have the flavour of

IMO

 

[Lady B]

Encountering World Religions (1987)“No great religious leader has been so maligned and misrepresented, outside his religion,-“ (Page 85)

I am pretty sure Christ gets this award, I mean he did get crucified for his beliefs, Mohammad died in peace...

 

[loverOfTruth]

Actually Is it not true that after Mohamed's death the followers found large discrepancies and differences in The writings so Abu Bakr gathered all the known Koranic materials, He then edited them and decided what would go in and what would be thrown out? And when he decided on the final version he then issued an order that all existing koranic materials were to be destroyed.

That is not correct. You are mixing up the incident during Uthman.

"During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah." [Taken from: http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm]