The Growing Greatness of Muhammad (S+) In The Eyes of Much of The World

[Lady B]

You Call us bad debaters? This is how one debates: one makes a statement then supporting arguments. You made a statement with opinions as support. You have started 3-4 threads on here since I have been a member ( few days) all with bold controversial and subjective op's then when asked to give support to them you put out the ever so popular review sheet.
No one has insulted your debating techniques frankly to my amazement , yet here we are insulted.I agree no one should call your Prophet defiling names, however pointing out facts in his life should be allowed right? Mohammed did indeed contract his marriage to Aisha when she was 6 years of age and marry her with what ever marriage entails in Islam at 9 years of age. This is fact from your own sources which is The best way to debate another's religion IMHO.

So in summery, I will ask you to again without opinions or subjective arguments tell us why Mohammad is the greatest of all humans of all time. If you can't do that then as many prior posters have suggested to you,It is your opinion. It is a shared opinion sure, but not a universal fact.

If I have offended your prophet in any way I apologize It is not my intention to ever disrespect Islam or any other religion.

 

[9Westy9]

You Call us bad debaters? This is how one debates: one makes a statement then supporting arguments. You made a statement with opinions as support. You have started 3-4 threads on here since I have been a member ( few days) all with bold controversial and subjective op's then when asked to give support to them you put out the ever so popular review sheet.
No one has insulted your debating techniques frankly to my amazement , yet here we are insulted.I agree no one should call your Prophet defiling names, however pointing out facts in his life should be allowed right? Mohammed did indeed contract his marriage to Aisha when she was 6 years of age and marry her with what ever marriage entails in Islam at 9 years of age. This is fact from your own sources which is The best way to debate another's religion IMHO.

So in summery, I will ask you to again without opinions or subjective arguments tell us why Mohammad is the greatest of all humans of all time. If you can't do that then as many prior posters have suggested to you,It is your opinion. It is a shared opinion sure, but not a universal fact.

If I have offended your prophet in any way I apologize It is not my intention to ever disrespect Islam or any other religion.

I'm afraid I can't give you a frubal for this as I'm all out of them. :sorry1:

 

[Lady B]

Its the thought that counts, so thankyou :hug

 

[sojourner]

I'm afraid I can't give you a frubal for this as I'm all out of them. :sorry1:

I spotted you one.

 

[Vinayaka]

Its a big world. Six billion and counting. Several hundred languages still, I think. I hate to break the news but probably 5.9 billion of those live in some very small ethnocentric view, unable to see beyond their own subconscious minds, mostly rather unintentionally, but because of a plain lack of experience, or exposure to other cultures. For people outside of those boxes, those boxes are largely irrelevant. So various prophets, let alone ideas, if you've never heard of them, remain irrelevant. Thus Muhammad, Jesus, and many other historical people only are relevant to those people within that cultural or religious mindset. To the rest of us, we don't really care either way.

 

[al-amiyr]

You Call us bad debaters? This is how one debates: one makes a statement then supporting arguments. You made a statement with opinions as support. You have started 3-4 threads on here since I have been a member ( few days) all with bold controversial and subjective op's then when asked to give support to them you put out the ever so popular review sheet.
No one has insulted your debating techniques frankly to my amazement , yet here we are insulted.I agree no one should call your Prophet defiling names, however pointing out facts in his life should be allowed right? Mohammed did indeed contract his marriage to Aisha when she was 6 years of age and marry her with what ever marriage entails in Islam at 9 years of age. This is fact from your own sources which is The best way to debate another's religion IMHO.

So in summery, I will ask you to again without opinions or subjective arguments tell us why Mohammad is the greatest of all humans of all time. If you can't do that then as many prior posters have suggested to you,It is your opinion. It is a shared opinion sure, but not a universal fact.

If I have offended your prophet in any way I apologize It is not my intention to ever disrespect Islam or any other religion.

Show me one place where I have called you a bad debater. Don't put yourself in a position I never placed you. I have also praised others even if they debated with me. As for the threads I told you that I am working on the drawings which I am designing. I am nearing completion. Is that not enough. You also do not show respect for the subject of the thread. Look how at length you spoke about hadiyth in a thread that has nothing to do with hadith.Then you make incorrect statements and I am forced to respond. You throw in the marriage of the prophet to his beloved wife "Aa'ishah which is a thread on its own. You force me to make threads to set the matter straight but that does not appear that many like. They just want to go on insulting the prophet as they wish. I am not referring to you and the vast majority of posters here. How many people do you think must have such a falsified opinion about Muhammad as a rapist and a pedophile. One thing I can say that I admire this forum for encouraging such debate. Otherwise I would not have spent so many hours here. No hard feelings

 

[al-amiyr]

Its a big world. Six billion and counting. Several hundred languages still, I think. I hate to break the news but probably 5.9 billion of those live in some very small ethnocentric view, unable to see beyond their own subconscious minds, mostly rather unintentionally, but because of a plain lack of experience, or exposure to other cultures. For people outside of those boxes, those boxes are largely irrelevant. So various prophets, let alone ideas, if you've never heard of them, remain irrelevant. Thus Muhammed, Jesus, and many other historical people only are relevant to those people within that cultural or religious mindset. To the rest of us, we don't really care either way.

I agree with you.

 

[Lady B]

Show me one place where I have called you a bad debater. Don't put yourself in a position I never placed you. I have also praised others even if they debated with me. As for the threads I told you that I am working on the drawings which I am designing. I am nearing completion. Is that not enough. You also do not show respect for the subject of the thread. Look how at length you spoke about hadiyth in a thread that has nothing to do with hadith.Then you make incorrect statements and I am forced to respond. You throw in the marriage of the prophet to his beloved wife "Aa'ishah which is a thread on its own. You force me to make threads to set the matter straight but that does not appear that many like. They just want to go on insulting the prophet as they wish. I am not referring to you and the vast majority of posters here. How many people do you think must have such a falsified opinion about Muhammad as a rapist and a pedophile. One thing I can say that I admire this forum for encouraging such debate. Otherwise I would not have spent so many hours here. No hard feelings

I accept your admonishment, But really I did not bring in Aisha or start the hadith side. As for forcing you to set the record straight in other threads? I am completely baffled at that accusation. I prefer you set it straight in the thread you started.as for incorrect statements? I did get Abu Bakr and Uthman confused, true,where else have I been incorrect though really? If I am incorrect it is only die to Islamic sources, The Hadiths.At any rate I do not mean to push you or be aggressive at all .

Your threads are obviously debate worthy or I would not open them at all, hope that makes you feel better, if not maybe a hug?

:hug:

 

[al-amiyr]

I accept your admonishment, But really I did not bring in Aisha or start the hadith side. As for forcing you to set the record straight in other threads? I am completely baffled at that accusation. I prefer you set it straight in the thread you started.as for incorrect statements? I did get Abu Bakr and Uthman confused, true,where else have I been incorrect though really? If I am incorrect it is only die to Islamic sources, The Hadiths.At any rate I do not mean to push you or be aggressive at all .

Your threads are obviously debate worthy or I would not open them at all, hope that makes you feel better, if not maybe a hug?

:hug:

Be informed I regard you as a worthy debater and read each of your posts carefully. God willing we will continue the quest for more knowledge. I learn everyday. And may I be humbled.

 

[Lady B]

Be informed I regard you as a worthy debater and read each of your posts carefully. God willing we will continue the quest for more knowledge. I learn everyday. And may I be humbled.

Inshaallah , thankyou!!

 

[gnostic]

The problem is, al-amiyr, is that all your posts are simply your opinion. Your choice of word - "greatest" - is also subjective description, which only over a billion Muslims would share. There are even more Christians who believe that Jesus would fit this bill. But no matter how many people who think or believe that he is the greatest, they are all opinions, and can be debated or contested.

There is no way to quantify the "greatest".

 

[al-amiyr]

The problem is, al-amiyr, is that all your posts are simply your opinion. Your choice of word - "greatest" - is also subjective description, which only over a billion Muslims would share. There are even more Christians who believe that Jesus would fit this bill. But no matter how many people who think or believe that he is the greatest, they are all opinions, and can be debated or contested.

There is no way to quantify the "greatest".

I respect your opinion. And if you had placed someone as the greatest then my reaction would have been completely different.I am going to explore your argument. Let me work on it and see what I will have come up with. You might still be proven correct. But nothing so far showed me otherwise.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Ok whether It be Uthman or Abu Bakr, you stated the Koran was assembled In Mohammad's Lifetime.

I don't recall saying anything like that.

I have many Hadiths to dispute this claim, do you have any to back it? And please don't imply my hadiths are unreliable and yours are correct. I am asking you to prove your statement " The Koran was completed in the life of the prophet Mohamed." can you do that please?

Again from the same site I quoted earlier : "The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet."

Essentially, what they are saying is that every single verse (i.e complete Qur'an) that is in the Qur'an today existed in written form but not necessarily the whole Qur'an as a book form. And during the book compilation for any verse to be included as part of the compiled Qur'an they verified 2 witnesses (written, memorized).
"And it was their way that nothing was written down except that they receive what was written down during the time of the Prophet peace be upon him and not just from memorization". (Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani, Fathul Bari, Kitab: Fadaa'il Al Qur'aan, Bab: Jami' Al Qur'aan, Commentary on Hadith no. 4603, Source)
That's how they had checks and balance to make sure it was preserved. Not to mention the promise from God Almighty : "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." (Al Qur'an 15:9)

Also the fact that the companions of the Prophet(pbuh) (Allah be pleased with them all) spread out across the lands after his death – and hundreds of thousands entered Islam through them in different places and those people in turn propagated the Qur'an as they learned from the companions and yet anywhere in the world you go today, you still have the same exact Qur'an (in Arabic ofcourse) - that in itself is a strong proof of the preservation of the Qur'an.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please read Al-Qur'an 33:40

Yusuf Ali
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

Sahih International
"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing."

Hello LoverOfTruth,

I believe this verse does not mean Muhammad is the Last Messenger forever.
You are free to interpret it this way, but I believe it is a misunderstanding of certain Moslem religious leaders, who after the passing of the Prophet they started to say Quran is the final Book.

It is clear that KhatAm is a device used to seal. So, Muhammad obviously is not a device to seal. So, this verse is not to be taken literally. "Seal" in the verse is a symbol. Whenever a word is used in a verse as symbol, that verse is a Mutishabihat verse according to classification of the verses. Thus, as Quran says, No one knows the meaning of Mutishabihat verses except God and His chosen ones who are given the knowledge. Therefore No one can claim to know for sure its meaning!!! (this is an important point to note) We can only have our opinions about it.
(If the majority of Moslem Scholars say it means the final Messenger, it does not mean they are right. It can be a fanatic behavior. People like to say their religion is the last and best.)



USE OF THE WORD KHATAM:

In one of his sayings Muhammad calls his uncle, Hadhrat Abbas, Khatamul Muhajireen (see Kanzul Ommal, Vol. VI, p. 178). But it does not mean that Abbas was the last Muhajir (refugee) of the whole Muslim world.


Similarly, Hadhrat Ali is called Khatamul Auliya (see Tafsir Safi under the Quranic verse 33:41). Ibn Khaldun says this phrase is understood to mean that Ali was a perfect saint and not the last (see Muqaddama, Vol. II pp. 165-167).


An Arab poet, Hasan bin Wahab, called Abu Tamam (the compiler of Himasa) Khatamush-Shu'ara (see Wafiyatul A'ayan Li Ibn Khallikan, Vol. I, p. 123, Cairo). Obviously Abu Tamam was not the last poet. The word Khatam, therefore, used in such phrases means the best and not the last.




Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;
"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him." (Takmilah Majma'ul Bihaar, p. 85)


Those Hadithes, as well as completion of Religion also do not mean, Quran is the final Book from God. I have already discussed these in details with a few Moslem friends in here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...5-islam-largest-practiced-faith-world-12.html


Please refer to those, and if you like to add another point, please do.

 

[FearGod]

Hello LoverOfTruth,

I believe this verse does not mean Muhammad is the Last Messenger forever.
You are free to interpret it this way, but I believe it is a misunderstanding of certain Moslem religious leaders, who after the passing of the Prophet they started to say Quran is the final Book.

It is clear that KhatAm is a device used to seal. So, Muhammad obviously is not a device to seal. So, this verse is not to be taken literally. "Seal" in the verse is a symbol. Whenever a word is used in a verse as symbol, that verse is a Mutishabihat verse according to classification of the verses. Thus, as Quran says, No one knows the meaning of Mutishabihat verses except God and His chosen ones who are given the knowledge. Therefore No one can claim to know for sure its meaning!!! (this is an important point to note) We can only have our opinions about it.
(If the majority of Moslem Scholars say it means the final Messenger, it does not mean they are right. It can be a fanatic behavior. People like to say their religion is the last and best.)



USE OF THE WORD KHATAM:

In one of his sayings Muhammad calls his uncle, Hadhrat Abbas, Khatamul Muhajireen (see Kanzul Ommal, Vol. VI, p. 178). But it does not mean that Abbas was the last Muhajir (refugee) of the whole Muslim world.


Similarly, Hadhrat Ali is called Khatamul Auliya (see Tafsir Safi under the Quranic verse 33:41). Ibn Khaldun says this phrase is understood to mean that Ali was a perfect saint and not the last (see Muqaddama, Vol. II pp. 165-167).


An Arab poet, Hasan bin Wahab, called Abu Tamam (the compiler of Himasa) Khatamush-Shu'ara (see Wafiyatul A'ayan Li Ibn Khallikan, Vol. I, p. 123, Cairo). Obviously Abu Tamam was not the last poet. The word Khatam, therefore, used in such phrases means the best and not the last.




Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;
"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him." (Takmilah Majma'ul Bihaar, p. 85)


Those Hadithes, as well as completion of Religion also do not mean, Quran is the final Book from God. I have already discussed these in details with a few Moslem friends in here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...5-islam-largest-practiced-faith-world-12.html


Please refer to those, and if you like to add another point, please do.

What that to do with the thread title .

 

[FearGod]

In all due respect I have studied Mohamed very well, I have no hard words to say of him,aside from some controversy he was wise and had a true love of God and dedicated his life to do that which God asked of him. Of course he was loved by his close friends and followers,of course they cried, of course they missed him greatly I can say the same for many great men. This proves only that he was the greatest man who ever lived to them and you who follow him right?

Mohammed Ali is a known muslim American boxer who was called the greatest boxer of history.

So why i should regard him as the greatest boxer,what he did to me.
he did that to America.

So he only should be known as the greatest boxer for Americans,but not for the world,Why i should accept him to be so.

But no i am sorry to say that your logic is wrong and silly.

Mohammed Ali is the greatest boxer in our history whether we want to accept it or not,because simply it is a fact and even he was called the greatest.

But if you don't like him personally,that is a different thing and will not affect his position of being the greatest boxer in the history and i,m one of his fans ,no,not because he is a muslim,but because he was really a great boxer that i enjoyed watching while i was youth.

[youtube]C36PGw-tYwk[/youtube]
Muhammad Ali.. The Greatest.. - YouTube

 

[gnostic]

I respect your opinion. And if you had placed someone as the greatest then my reaction would have been completely different.I am going to explore your argument. Let me work on it and see what I will have come up with. You might still be proven correct. But nothing so far showed me otherwise.

Your OP say greatest "human being".

That's your opinion - not the fact - and you are entitled to your opinion. You didn't say the greatest prophet or the greatest religious figure or the greatest shepherd or greatest warrior or the greatest singer, or the greatest such-and-such, etc, etc, etc. You speaking of the whole of mankind, from beginning to the present (and judging by the tone of replies, in the future). You might have got away with it, if you had said the greatest prophet or religious figure, but not with the greatest human being. But you didn't.

No one here, deny that Muhammad did something great, in the sphere of religion. But that you even think there is the CORRECT choice of the greatest "human being", speaks more volumes of your arrogance, has nothing do with facts, because no-one in their right would make such bold and baseless claim.

And how do you measure this greatest of "greatness"?

 

[Lady B]

Mohammed Ali is a known muslim American boxer who was called the greatest boxer of history.

So why i should regard him as the greatest boxer,what he did to me.
he did that to America.

So he only should be known as the greatest boxer for Americans,but not for the world,Why i should accept him to be so.

But no i am sorry to say that your logic is wrong and silly.

Mohammed Ali is the greatest boxer in our history whether we want to accept it or not,because simply it is a fact and even he was called the greatest.

But if you don't like him personally,that is a different thing and will not affect his position of being the greatest boxer in the history and i,m one of his fans ,no,not because he is a muslim,but because he was really a great boxer that i enjoyed watching while i was youth.

[youtube]C36PGw-tYwk[/youtube]
Muhammad Ali.. The Greatest.. - YouTube

My logic is not silly you just don't agree with it and that is OK.

Mohammad Ali was the best boxer why? Because his stats, Boxers have Goals they need to reach in order to be the best, the goals are not subjective, therefore If his stats are undefeated then he is the greatest boxer. When and if another boxer comes along that can defeat his stats well then he ceases to be the greatest.

I you said Mohammad Ali was the greatest human being of all times, well then it becomes subjective and only a select group of fans will agree.
If you said Mohammad was the greatest prophet for Islam, well now I would agree with you also.
If we set the standards to what makes a great human, a list of sorts that all agree in, and If Mohammed met all of those standards, well then you have your support. But there is no objective standard for a great Human is there?

 

[FearGod]

My logic is not silly you just don't agree with it and that is OK.

Mohammad Ali was the best boxer why? Because his stats, Boxers have Goals they need to reach in order to be the best, the goals are not subjective, therefore If his stats are undefeated then he is the greatest boxer. When and if another boxer comes along that can defeat his stats well then he ceases to be the greatest.

I you said Mohammad Ali was the greatest human being of all times, well then it becomes subjective and only a select group of fans will agree.
If you said Mohammad was the greatest prophet for Islam, well now I would agree with you also.
If we set the standards to what makes a great human, a list of sorts that all agree in, and If Mohammed met all of those standards, well then you have your support. But there is no objective standard for a great Human is there?

Yes,i did understand what do you mean.

i will try to explain why some thinkers have graded him as the greatest,and of course i aint asking you to do a favor and regard him as the greatest too .

it is up to you of course how you grade one person.i agree with you at this point,anyway

We are talking about the greatest character of a human being in our history,how we could know such character,by studying the life story of prophet Mohammed which have been studied by some thinkers (Sirat prophet mohammed).

i aint going to tell each and every story because i need to write a book here and honestly saying i aint a good writer and have even difficulties on english language.

in peace,his character is the most merciful,even harming an animal did disgust him.
in war,he is a great brave warrior,so he was best in both.

Was known before islam and called as honest and trustful,never ever known to lie which was one of the the reasons that many accepted to believe that he was speaking the truth because of his characters since he was youth,he did never worship idols and never drink wine or commit adultery,so in few words the greatest morals of a human being.

Even when he knew that he is going to leave the world,he was worried that he should ask his people to gather for his last speech,is that easy,i don't believe so,except for great men and women.

How you could know a person with a great character.

Can we call a person who are always drunk a great person.
Can we call a person who lie everyday as a great person.
Can we call a perspon who are afraid to face an oppressor as a great person.
Can we call a person like me and you as great ones,yes we are.

You may disagree with me on all of the above and i'll be glad to hear your comments,but i want to say one last thing that i agree with you %100 that its ones own opinion whether he want to grade one person as the greatest or not,but i am only trying to explain why some thinkers believe him to be so as well as most muslims do.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Hello LoverOfTruth,

I believe this verse does not mean Muhammad is the Last Messenger forever.
You are free to interpret it this way, but I believe it is a misunderstanding of certain Moslem religious leaders, who after the passing of the Prophet they started to say Quran is the final Book.

It is clear that KhatAm is a device used to seal. So, Muhammad obviously is not a device to seal. So, this verse is not to be taken literally. "Seal" in the verse is a symbol. Whenever a word is used in a verse as symbol, that verse is a Mutishabihat verse according to classification of the verses. Thus, as Quran says, No one knows the meaning of Mutishabihat verses except God and His chosen ones who are given the knowledge. Therefore No one can claim to know for sure its meaning!!! (this is an important point to note) We can only have our opinions about it.
(If the majority of Moslem Scholars say it means the final Messenger, it does not mean they are right. It can be a fanatic behavior. People like to say their religion is the last and best.)



USE OF THE WORD KHATAM:

In one of his sayings Muhammad calls his uncle, Hadhrat Abbas, Khatamul Muhajireen (see Kanzul Ommal, Vol. VI, p. 178). But it does not mean that Abbas was the last Muhajir (refugee) of the whole Muslim world.


Similarly, Hadhrat Ali is called Khatamul Auliya (see Tafsir Safi under the Quranic verse 33:41). Ibn Khaldun says this phrase is understood to mean that Ali was a perfect saint and not the last (see Muqaddama, Vol. II pp. 165-167).


An Arab poet, Hasan bin Wahab, called Abu Tamam (the compiler of Himasa) Khatamush-Shu'ara (see Wafiyatul A'ayan Li Ibn Khallikan, Vol. I, p. 123, Cairo). Obviously Abu Tamam was not the last poet. The word Khatam, therefore, used in such phrases means the best and not the last.




Aisha, the wife of the Muhammad states;
"Say he is 'seal of prophets' but do not say there is no prophet after him." (Takmilah Majma'ul Bihaar, p. 85)


Those Hadithes, as well as completion of Religion also do not mean, Quran is the final Book from God. I have already discussed these in details with a few Moslem friends in here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...5-islam-largest-practiced-faith-world-12.html


Please refer to those, and if you like to add another point, please do.

Muhammad - The Last Prophet

This article refutes all those claims - both the misinterpretation of the Qur'anic verse about 'Seal of Prophets' and the saying of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her).