The Hard Truth about Terrorism

[Windwalker]

So, let's come back to your comment you never acknowledged when I expressed dismay at your version of "Christianity". To quote you:

If Christianity encouraged terrorism, I would be engaged in terrorist activities,

Again, WOW!!!!!! Your personality is such you would be willing to commit acts of terrorism if your religion told you to. WOW!!!!! And you blame them??? Aren't you saying they're just like you??? You admit to being willing to commit acts of murder if your religion told you to do it? There is much to be dismayed about here! I wholly reject your "faith", such as it is.

 

[Crypto2015]

So, let's come back to your comment you never acknowledged when I expressed dismay at your version of "Christianity". To quote you:



Again, WOW!!!!!! Your personality is such you would be willing to commit acts of terrorism if your religion told you to. WOW!!!!! And you blame them??? Aren't you saying they're just like you??? You admit to being willing to commit acts of murder if your religion told you to do it? There is much to be dismayed about here! I wholly reject your "faith", such as it is.

A Jihad fighter and I are similar only in the fact that we both believe in the sacred texts of our respective religions. However, my sacred texts tell me that God is love and that I must love everyone, including my enemies. I am not the only Christian who takes the Bible seriously. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of people like me in the US. Yet, how many terrorist attacks do these people commit? That's why the moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam is nonsensical.

 

[columbus]

2 Palestinians claim this about Bush and you believe them?

It wasn't just Palestinians.
I also recall some Bush speeches that left me banging my head with anger. Him saying stuff like "I prayed and prayed, and Lord Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to give me a big thumbs up on Shock and Awe".
I'm paraphrasing a little.
But yeah, I was there and I was paying attention.
Bush did claim that the invasion was approved by God.

Tom

 

[Godobeyer]

In the wake of the Orlando attacks in Florida, we are now once again discussing how to fight terrorism. In the rush for politicians to seem more "decisive" on the issue there is something which badly needs to be said.

You can't stop every terrorist attack.

As we go about blaming various agencies for their respective failings to prevent the Orlando attack we miss a much deeper point: The government is not omnipotent. Even totalitarian governments can never eliminate the risk of terrorism. They expended a great number of resources and lives trying to find a conspiracy because they assumed that they existed. Even without looking at the abuses this facilitated even if everyone had used this power for entirely benevolent ends there good intentions can only dubiously justify legal systems without a presumption of innocence, where guilt is established in suspicion and not evidence, where people may be considered "suspect" because of their families and friends, their work colleagues, the books they read (or the websites they visit). In expecting the government to prevent every terrorist attack, We trade our civil liberties for an illusion of security.

This isn't necessaily an argument against totalitarianism on moral grounds nor that we cannot take measures to "manage" the threat of terrorism. Rather, that we should not give in purely on our irrational fears and that we should evaluate security measures based on evidence of their effective as and not ideology. if we start thinking totalitarianism is morally justified (and we are a long way down this road already) we should not do so based on the illusion of of its omnipotence as a basis for our security. The government cannot make the world 100% safe even if that is what we sincerely expected and demanded of it.

I personally consider the main reasons of terrorism are:

1-The conflict of Palestine/Israel.
2-Involving of West in Afghanistan against SU by helping Alqaeda and Taliban, invade Iraq 2003,and involve of NATO in Libya (switching what consider "to West" as dictatorship regimes by civil war and terrorism)
3-The crimes that happened in Bosnia, in middle of Europe against Muslims.
4-Genocide that happening in Burma to minority of Muslims by extrem Buddist.
5- all above points used by some scholars (most of them belong to kings of oil) to preach the hate speech, and generalizing.

 

[Windwalker]

However, my sacred texts tell me that God is love and that I must love everyone, including my enemies.

So you love because someone tells you to? That is not love. Love comes from the heart, not "following teachings".

I am not the only Christian who takes the Bible seriously. I am pretty sure that there are thousands of people like me in the US. Yet, how many terrorist attacks do these people commit? That's why the moral equivalence between Christianity and Islam is nonsensical.

Yet, you said you would commit acts of terrorism if your religion told you to! I, on the other hand, would absolutely NOT! I am a moral person. Aren't you? I love without being told I should. It's folks like you, apparently, that are the terrorists of the world. You have admitted it. You should seek some help.

 

[uncung]

That's right blame the west for all the wrongs of islam.

Invasion to the Islamic lands by your troops is the fact.

 

[Crypto2015]

So you love because someone tells you to? That is not love. Love comes from the heart, not "following teachings".


Yet, you said you would commit acts of terrorism if your religion told you to! I, on the other hand, would absolutely NOT! I am a moral person. Aren't you? I love without being told I should. It's folks like you, apparently, that are the terrorists of the world. You have admitted it. You should seek some help.

Love comes from God. God is love. Our heart has nothing good in it. From our heart comes lust, debauchery, hate and murder. I don't love just because I am told to. On the contrary, I recognized Christianity as the true faith because Christianity expressed the same kind of love that God had already put into my heart before my conversion.

However, if for some reason this loving God commanded a violent action and I had no doubt whatsoever that the command comes from him, I would obey that command. However, you and all the government agencies know that they don't have to worry about people like me because Christianity does not encourage terrorism at all.

You said that you are a moral person. Perhaps you try to behave well. However, you have no real reason to be a moral person. There is no rational basis for your moral principles. If God does not exist everything is relative. Truth is relative. If God does not exist that guy who killed those gays in that pub is as right as you or me. In the absence of God, morality is simply an opinion.

 

[Crypto2015]

I always find it dumbfounding how some religious people will nitpick a handful of verses and use it to judge another religious tradition when theirs has just as many (if not more) stupid rules we could cherrypick.
Mostly targeted at the anti-islam christians in this thread.

It is actually the people like you who are abetting the terrorist by failing to see a link between their actions and their theology. Also, as you yourself said, cherrypicking is the only way in which you could try to "prove" that Christianity is violent. If instead of cherrypicking you cared to actually analyse the message in its context, you would have to admit that Christianity is the most peaceful message ever addressed to mankind.

 

[Crypto2015]

I personally consider the main reasons of terrorism are:

1-The conflict of Palestine/Israel.
2-Involving of West in Afghanistan against SU by helping Alqaeda and Taliban, invade Iraq 2003,and involve of NATO in Libya (switching what consider "to West" as dictatorship regimes by civil war and terrorism)
3-The crimes that happened in Bosnia, in middle of Europe against Muslims.
4-Genocide that happening in Burma to minority of Muslims by extrem Buddist.
5- all above points used by some scholars (most of them belong to kings of oil) to preach the hate speech, and generalizing.

So, basically, the non-Muslims are to blame.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You said that you are a moral person. Perhaps you try to behave well. However, you have no real reason to be a moral person. There is no rational basis for your moral principles. If God does not exist everything is relative. Truth is relative. If God does not exist that guy who killed those gays in that pub is as right as you or me. In the absence of God, morality is simply an opinion.

And argument from authority isn't inherently objective. Have no reason to believe that even if your God exists that it's morally superior just because it claims it. do frankly the atrocities committed in the bible, including multiple genocides in which the blameless including children are killed, leaves me with suspicion that the virtues of your religion were built more on warmongering than you would ever admit.

That said, your morals have to come from a subjective lens of your opinion on the certainty that the scriptures are genuine and the opinion that your interpretation of the scripture is correct.
My morals are informed by consequentialism and tangible helps and harms to society and individuals. Therefore I will never subscribe to "X charismatic leader says Y is wrong, therefore it is wrong."

Also, as you yourself said, cherrypicking is the only way in which you could try to "prove" that Christianity is violent. If instead of cherrypicking you cared to actually analyse the message in its context, you would have to admit that Christianity is the most peaceful message ever addressed to mankind.

Sounds like they were saying it takes cherry picking to deny the bible's violent nature. What with one more genocide on the way and the 'convert or be destroyed/tortured for eternity.' I'd easily say Buddhism has a more beautiful message than that, and I'm not Buddhist either.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Regarding what you said about P-IRA, I don't think that the comparison is fair.

If you bother to read a history book, it is a fair comparison because we see the exact same things happening. The only real difference is the P-IRA didn't have Facebook or Youtube.

What you have to understand is that Islam's hostility towards Western values is not a response to the maltreatment of Muslims.

Then why have no Muslims ever mistreated me? And you've obviously overlooked passages in the Quran that do speak of peace, tolerance, and respecting others.

You deceive yourself if you believe that Islam's doctrines depend on what people in the non-Muslim world do.

You deceive yourself if you think Christianity is any different. A ton of blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity, but I'm willing to judge each individual follower on a case-per-case basis. Some of them are really nice people, some of them spew venom whenever they open their mouths, and some of them are even radical and violent.

 

[Crypto2015]

If you bother to read a history book, it is a fair comparison because we see the exact same things happening. The only real difference is the P-IRA didn't have Facebook or Youtube.

Then why have no Muslims ever mistreated me? And you've obviously overlooked passages in the Quran that do speak of peace, tolerance, and respecting others.

You deceive yourself if you think Christianity is any different. A ton of blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity, but I'm willing to judge each individual follower on a case-per-case basis. Some of them are really nice people, some of them spew venom whenever they open their mouths, and some of them are even radical and violent.

Christianity is the complete opposite of Islam. The thing is that you must study the entire message of these religions and not just examine separate verses. Christianity teaches that the Law of Moses is no longer a legal code that Christians must follow. On the other hand, Islam has a principle called the principle of abrogation (latter verses abrogate earlier verses). Unfortunately, the peaceful verses that we can find in the Qur'an have been abrogated by the violent verses. This is because Muhammad started as a preacher and ended up as a warlord. You can find this info on several websites.

 

[Crypto2015]

And argument from authority isn't inherently objective. Have no reason to believe that even if your God exists that it's morally superior just because it claims it. do frankly the atrocities committed in the bible, including multiple genocides in which the blameless including children are killed, leaves me with suspicion that the virtues of your religion were built more on warmongering than you would ever admit.

That said, your morals have to come from a subjective lens of your opinion on the certainty that the scriptures are genuine and the opinion that your interpretation of the scripture is correct.
My morals are informed by consequentialism and tangible helps and harms to society and individuals. Therefore I will never subscribe to "X charismatic leader says Y is wrong, therefore it is wrong."

Sounds like they were saying it takes cherry picking to deny the bible's violent nature. What with one more genocide on the way and the 'convert or be destroyed/tortured for eternity.' I'd easily say Buddhism has a more beautiful message than that, and I'm not Buddhist either.

The fact that you will end up in hell if you don't repent had nothing to do with genocide. God will judge you, not men.

 

[Crypto2015]

I see that all of you guys are in full "beaten wife in denial" mode. Some of you say "I must get used to the beatings. Beatings are a very normal thing in many marriages". Some others say "How do you dare to criticize my husband because he beats me? You are not better than him". Some others say "I must keep silence about the beatings. My husband will change if I just wait and I don't make him feel angry". Finally, you have both the wife and the husband saying "I, the wife, am the one to blame. If I had just behaved differently my husband would not have beaten me. He has his reasons." Enjoy your beatings, guys!

 

[Lyndon]

Yes, Christianity is different because its members preach hatred for other religions, how wonderful is that, Jesus would be really upset with them, no doubt.

 

[Valjean]

Christianity doesn't always present an attitude of tolerance, either:

The videotaped sermon by Pastor Roger Jimenez of Verity Baptist Church touched off a firestorm of controversy shortly after it was posted on Sunday. In it, Jimenez said that when he learned the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history had occurred at a gay club, he wasn’t sad. In fact, he felt quite the contrary.

“I think Orlando, Fla., is a little safer tonight,” he told his congregation, equating members of the LGBT community to sexual predators. “The tragedy is more of them didn’t die…. I’m kind of upset he didn’t finish the job!”

Jimenez also said if it were up to him, gays and lesbians would be lined up against a wall so a firing squad could “blow their brains out.”

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...illings-video-sermon-20160614-snap-story.html[/quote]

 

[Flankerl]

Both of which were attacks on Israeli targets.

So if I bomb a mosque its not an attack against Muslims but against "insert a Muslim country here".

Cool.


btw the "I" in AMIA stands for Israelita, which does not mean Israeli but Israelite. But its okay, they were probably Israeli spies.

 

[Windwalker]

So if I bomb a mosque its not an attack against Muslims but against "insert a Muslim country here".

Cool.

That's correct. That's exactly what I was saying. If someone bombs mosques, they are targeting Muslims. They aren't targeting them because they are Americans. The attacks were against Jewish targets. The attacks were not against them because they were Argentinians. They were targeting Jews. This is what I was saying. You have just validated it.

 

[Windwalker]

Love comes from God. God is love. Our heart has nothing good in it. From our heart comes lust, debauchery, hate and murder.

From our heart also comes love, and good, life and light, kindness and compassion. If it did not, the entire species would have self-annihilated within the first generations of its existence. While I agree God is love, you have to now in the light of knowing that humans everywhere not only are capable of love but in the vast, vast majority of cases act primarily out of love conclude that ALL of them have God, since God is love. ALL of them, Muslims included.

I don't love just because I am told to.

It's impossible to love because someone tells you. It has to come from within yourself, not from outside of you. To "tell" someone to be loving is only a simple reminder to get them to look at themselves and choose love over spite, because we have both within us, both good and bad. If you don't have love inherently within you, no amount of "commandments" to love can give it to you to give to others.

On the contrary, I recognized Christianity as the true faith because Christianity expressed the same kind of love that God had already put into my heart before my conversion.

The same love that is in 99.9998% of all humans who live or whoever have lived. And you mistake Christianity as the "true faith". True faith is not a religion. True faith is listening to the love that is in your heart and following it.

However, if for some reason this loving God commanded a violent action and I had no doubt whatsoever that the command comes from him, I would obey that command.

If you are out of touch with your own heart, not knowing love inside of you, then that is why you could be capable of such an act. To me, your very answer which you have stated repeatedly that you are capable of murder if commanded to by your religion tells me you do not know love in yourself. It tells me the only thing that keeps you from evil is external rules imposed upon you. That, is frightening.

However, you and all the government agencies know that they don't have to worry about people like me because Christianity does not encourage terrorism at all.

Except of course there are plenty of Christians who find justification to murder in the name of Christianity. Not just individuals, but groups, such as the KKK, the Army of God, abortion clinic bombers, and the list goes on and on. I can certainly cite plenty of verses out of scriptures which like the Koran are equally violent and commanding followers to commit. Never read those? Just flip back into the OT and have a read.

Does this mean Christianity is a violent religion? Of course not. Yet you have radical Christian groups in it to. Exactly the same as Islam. The difference is the people themselves. MOST people are not capable of terrorism - even if their religion told them to do it! You however have admitted you are capable of it, and would willing participate in murdering others if your god told you to do it.

You said that you are a moral person. Perhaps you try to behave well. However, you have no real reason to be a moral person. There is no rational basis for your moral principles.

You think our morality comes because of rational arguments? Our morality comes because we inherently prefer to belong to a group and not be rejected by them firstly. Secondly, when we mature we choose to be because to live consistent with the love within us as the highest principles of our lives rewards us in the giving of that love to others. Love is greater than hate. The basis for our morality is not a book of rules, an external authority telling us to be good, but rather it is an existential basis, our being itself. It comes from our being human.

If God does not exist everything is relative. Truth is relative.

Actually, I believe that God does exist, and I also believe truth is relative. God is absolute, infinite, but anything we can reason or believe about God is in fact relative. Our minds are incapable of comprehending absolute truth. Both are true.

If God does not exist that guy who killed those gays in that pub is as right as you or me.

Then you do not understand human relationships. We are social beings. We are moral beings. We are loving beings. Anything that violates those is wrong. We don't have to have a Rule-Giver from the sky to tell us what love is. We know what it is.

In the absence of God, morality is simply an opinion.

Why? What about human societies? How did they survive without being told from a religion what God wants them to do? Why didn't we just eat ourselves alive and wipe out the species in the first generation?

 

[Crypto2015]

That's correct. That's exactly what I was saying. If someone bombs mosques, they are targeting Muslims. They aren't targeting them because they are Americans. The attacks were against Jewish targets. The attacks were not against them because they were Argentinians. They were targeting Jews. This is what I was saying. You have just validated it.

So, Jews cannot be American nor Argentinian? If you are a Jew, you have no country (except perhaps Israel)?