The Hard Truth about Terrorism

[Crypto2015]

From our heart also comes love, and good, life and light, kindness and compassion. If it did not, the entire species would have self-annihilated within the first generations of its existence. While I agree God is love, you have to now in the light of knowing that humans everywhere not only are capable of love but in the vast, vast majority of cases act primarily out of love conclude that ALL of them have God, since God is love. ALL of them, Muslims included.


It's impossible to love because someone tells you. It has to come from within yourself, not from outside of you. To "tell" someone to be loving is only a simple reminder to get them to look at themselves and choose love over spite, because we have both within us, both good and bad. If you don't have love inherently within you, no amount of "commandments" to love can give it to you to give to others.


The same love that is in 99.9998% of all humans who live or whoever have lived. And you mistake Christianity as the "true faith". True faith is not a religion. True faith is listening to the love that is in your heart and following it.


If you are out of touch with your own heart, not knowing love inside of you, then that is why you could be capable of such an act. To me, your very answer which you have stated repeatedly that you are capable of murder if commanded to by your religion tells me you do not know love in yourself. It tells me the only thing that keeps you from evil is external rules imposed upon you. That, is frightening.


Except of course there are plenty of Christians who find justification to murder in the name of Christianity. Not just individuals, but groups, such as the KKK, the Army of God, abortion clinic bombers, and the list goes on and on. I can certainly cite plenty of verses out of scriptures which like the Koran are equally violent and commanding followers to commit. Never read those? Just flip back into the OT and have a read.

Does this mean Christianity is a violent religion? Of course not. Yet you have radical Christian groups in it to. Exactly the same as Islam. The difference is the people themselves. MOST people are not capable of terrorism - even if their religion told them to do it! You however have admitted you are capable of it, and would willing participate in murdering others if your god told you to do it.


You think our morality comes because of rational arguments? Our morality comes because we inherently prefer to belong to a group and not be rejected by them firstly. Secondly, when we mature we choose to be because to live consistent with the love within us as the highest principles of our lives rewards us in the giving of that love to others. Love is greater than hate. The basis for our morality is not a book of rules, an external authority telling us to be good, but rather it is an existential basis, our being itself. It comes from our being human.


Actually, I believe that God does exist, and I also believe truth is relative. God is absolute, infinite, but anything we can reason or believe about God is in fact relative. Our minds are incapable of comprehending absolute truth. Both are true.


Then you do not understand human relationships. We are social beings. We are moral beings. We are loving beings. Anything that violates those is wrong. We don't have to have a Rule-Giver from the sky to tell us what love is. We know what it is.


Why? What about human societies? How did they survive without being told from a religion what God wants them to do? Why didn't we just eat ourselves alive and wipe out the species in the first generation?

You should watch William Lane Craig's videos about morality. Unfortunately, I am too busy to reply to your other questions. I am sorry.

 

[Windwalker]

So, Jews cannot be American nor Argentinian? If you are a Jew, you have no country (except perhaps Israel)?

This has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Windwalker]

You should watch William Lane Craig's videos about morality. Unfortunately, I am too busy to reply to your other questions. I am sorry.

Why? What makes him knowledgeable about these areas. Is he a researcher in the areas sociology, anthropology, ethology, etc? BTW, if you're too busy to reply to my other points, I assume you're too busy to reply to others' points as well now in this thread. If you aren't, then are you just "too busy" to reply specifically to my points?

 

[McBell]

In the absence of God, morality is simply an opinion.

Until god shows up to set all the theists straight over which theists OPINIONATED version of "Gods moral absolute" is the one true real gods moral absolute, morality is nothing more than opinion, period.
That some people claim their favored deity backs them up makes no difference.

 

[McBell]

Yes, Christianity is different because its members preach hatred for other religions, how wonderful is that, Jesus would be really upset with them, no doubt.

so just like Islam then

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The fact that you will end up in hell if you don't repent had nothing to do with genocide. God will judge you, not men.

The genocides I was talking about were the flood, the cleansing of Canaanites, the final Egyptian plague and the promised Armageddon.
I don't believe any of them happened or will happen, mind you, but it's always saddening to see believers try to rationalize when it's OK to kill non-combatants, children et all. So long as it's their "just and loving" being doing it.

Anyway Christians persecute, attack and kill gays especially even today. There are still people who identify as Christians and think gays should be imprisoned for life or executed. Tea partiers that were even US presidential nominees supported executing gays (Looking at you Ted Cruz.) Jamaica complained up a storm when the US embassy flew a rainbow flag at half mast because it seemed like an insult against their sodomy laws where gays can be arrested and imprisoned for 10 years or more. Jamaica is a Christian country.
So let's please not pretend Christians are all roses and the Bible can't be used for ill. Because it is. All the time.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

we can stop terrorism by stopping invading islamic lands.

And when Muslim terrorists attack their fellow nationals in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Thailand, China, the Philippines, etc, which invasion are they protesting about?

And when when the terrorists attacked people in Paris, which invasion was that about?

Even if the 9/11 attacks were prompted by US government actions in the Gulf, where is the moral justification for attacking the ordinary citizens of New York.

Your post merely illustrates the moral bankruptcy of so many Muslims.

 

[Flankerl]

That's correct. That's exactly what I was saying. If someone bombs mosques, they are targeting Muslims. They aren't targeting them because they are Americans. The attacks were against Jewish targets. The attacks were not against them because they were Argentinians. They were targeting Jews. This is what I was saying. You have just validated it.

This has nothing to do with what I said.

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

"Both of which were attacks on Israeli targets."

Israeli, as in by Israel, with Israeli citizens.


Which the AMIA was not, is not and never will be.

 

[columbus]

So, Jews cannot be American nor Argentinian? If you are a Jew, you have no country (except perhaps Israel)?

I don't see what is hard to understand about this.
The targets were hit because they were Zionist, nothing to do with being Argentinian.
It doesn't even appear to have anything to do with Jews. Zionist is different from Jewish which is different from Israeli.
Tom

 

[Crypto2015]

From our heart also comes love, and good, life and light, kindness and compassion. If it did not, the entire species would have self-annihilated within the first generations of its existence. While I agree God is love, you have to now in the light of knowing that humans everywhere not only are capable of love but in the vast, vast majority of cases act primarily out of love conclude that ALL of them have God, since God is love. ALL of them, Muslims included.


It's impossible to love because someone tells you. It has to come from within yourself, not from outside of you. To "tell" someone to be loving is only a simple reminder to get them to look at themselves and choose love over spite, because we have both within us, both good and bad. If you don't have love inherently within you, no amount of "commandments" to love can give it to you to give to others.


The same love that is in 99.9998% of all humans who live or whoever have lived. And you mistake Christianity as the "true faith". True faith is not a religion. True faith is listening to the love that is in your heart and following it.


If you are out of touch with your own heart, not knowing love inside of you, then that is why you could be capable of such an act. To me, your very answer which you have stated repeatedly that you are capable of murder if commanded to by your religion tells me you do not know love in yourself. It tells me the only thing that keeps you from evil is external rules imposed upon you. That, is frightening.


Except of course there are plenty of Christians who find justification to murder in the name of Christianity. Not just individuals, but groups, such as the KKK, the Army of God, abortion clinic bombers, and the list goes on and on. I can certainly cite plenty of verses out of scriptures which like the Koran are equally violent and commanding followers to commit. Never read those? Just flip back into the OT and have a read.

Does this mean Christianity is a violent religion? Of course not. Yet you have radical Christian groups in it to. Exactly the same as Islam. The difference is the people themselves. MOST people are not capable of terrorism - even if their religion told them to do it! You however have admitted you are capable of it, and would willing participate in murdering others if your god told you to do it.


You think our morality comes because of rational arguments? Our morality comes because we inherently prefer to belong to a group and not be rejected by them firstly. Secondly, when we mature we choose to be because to live consistent with the love within us as the highest principles of our lives rewards us in the giving of that love to others. Love is greater than hate. The basis for our morality is not a book of rules, an external authority telling us to be good, but rather it is an existential basis, our being itself. It comes from our being human.


Actually, I believe that God does exist, and I also believe truth is relative. God is absolute, infinite, but anything we can reason or believe about God is in fact relative. Our minds are incapable of comprehending absolute truth. Both are true.



Then you do not understand human relationships. We are social beings. We are moral beings. We are loving beings. Anything that violates those is wrong. We don't have to have a Rule-Giver from the sky to tell us what love is. We know what it is.


Why? What about human societies? How did they survive without being told from a religion what God wants them to do? Why didn't we just eat ourselves alive and wipe out the species in the first generation?

Sorry, but I couldn't reply until now. The Christian God is love. If you read the Bible you'll get to realize this. Radical Christians, as you call them, are those who believe in the Bible. These radical Christians are the ones that travel the world feeding the poor, caring for the orphans, building hospitals, etc. This is radical Christianity. This is what the bible teaches us to do. God did not just commanded me to love. He put his love in my heart and in the hearts of all believers in order for us to share this love with the world.

Regarding morality, the fact that we are social beings does not prove that empathy is good. If God does not exist, empathy is just the product of evolution and therefore a psychological mirage. In other words, in the absence of God morality has no rational basis, since under these circumstances morality is nothing else than an evolutionary strategy. In the absence of God, raping is not really wrong, it is, at most, evolutionary disadvantageous. Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly. I hope you get the idea.

 

[Windwalker]

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

"Both of which were attacks on Israeli targets."

Israeli, as in by Israel, with Israeli citizens.


Which the AMIA was not, is not and never will be.

I was meaning to say they targeted Jews. They were Jewish targets. It would be as if someone were targeting American Muslim Mosques. They are targeting Muslims. The fact they are Americans is not the reason they were attacking them. The fact that these Jews were Argentina is not why they were being attacked. They were attacking Jewish people in their minds.

 

[Crypto2015]

I don't see what is hard to understand about this.
The targets were hit because they were Zionist, nothing to do with being Argentinian.
It doesn't even appear to have anything to do with Jews. Zionist is different from Jewish which is different from Israeli.
Tom

What do Argentinean Jews, including the children that were playing in the building that they blew up, have to do with the land of Israel? Many of them hadn't even visited Israel. Moreover, even if you disagree with Zionism, that does not give you the right to blow up men, women, and children. It seems to me that this should be obvious to everyone.

 

[Windwalker]

The Christian God is love. If you read the Bible you'll get to realize this.

I have a degree in theology. I've read it.

Radical Christians, as you call them, are those who believe in the Bible.

I did not use the words "Radical Christians" to describe all Christians. I said very specifically, "Does this mean Christianity is a violent religion? Of course not. Yet you have radical Christian groups in it too". I was saying there are radicals within Christianity, not that Christianity is a radical religion.

These radical Christians are the ones that travel the world feeding the poor, caring for the orphans, building hospitals, etc. This is radical Christianity.

No it is not. This is not radical Christianity. Radical Christianity is the KKK, Westboro Baptist, Abortion Clinic Bombers, and those who would kill others if they believed their god told them to. Those are radicals. They do not help the world. They do not define Christianity. Just the same as terrorists in Islam do not define Islam.

This is what the bible teaches us to do. God did not just commanded me to love. He put his love in my heart and in the hearts of all believer in order for us to share this love with the world.

He puts love in everyone's heart, whether they are your religion or not. Love exists in the world, and all live and grow and love by it. Everyone does, except sociopaths and otherwise broken "radicals".

Regarding morality, the fact that we are social beings does not prove that empathy is good. If God does not exist, empathy is just the product of evolution and therefore a psychological mirage.

What??? This is novel! Empathy is empathy. If it's "just the production of evolution," then "Thank God for Evolution! Empathy is no mirage. It's what allows our species to survive. Here, watch this:

In other words, in the absence of God morality has no rational basis, since under these circumstances morality is nothing else than an evolutionary strategy.

Or, evolution is how Spirit grows and becomes in all of us, and therefore we naturally have love and empathy as we grow and mature. Why do you make evolution the enemy of God?

In the absence of God, raping is not really wrong, it is, at most, evolutionary disadvantageous. Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly. I hope you get the idea.

I think I get the idea that you think rape is OK if God says it is, the same as you would commit acts of terror if your religion told you to.

 

[Crypto2015]

Until god shows up to set all the theists straight over which theists OPINIONATED version of "Gods moral absolute" is the one true real gods moral absolute, morality is nothing more than opinion, period.
That some people claim their favored deity backs them up makes no difference.

God already appeared and did this. His words can be found in the New Testament.

 

[McBell]

God already appeared and did this. His words can be found in the New Testament.

outside the wishful thinking of those who want the New Testament (or any other "Holy Text" for that matter) to be from god there is nothing to support the claim the New Testament (or any other "Holy Text" for that matter) is from any god, let alone the specific god the claimed claims them to be from.

Interestingly enough, you merely further proved my point.
Look at all the differing moralities from the New Testament...
Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind.
nterestingly enough, you have no more evidence they are wrong than you do you are right...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The thing is that you must study the entire message of these religions and not just examine separate verses.

I've read the entire Bible and Quran. Both books have violence and peace, contradictions, and both contain laws that most of Christians and Muslims wouldn't consider doing, and some of those laws are illegal in most countries (such as slavery).

These radical Christians are the ones that travel the world feeding the poor, caring for the orphans, building hospitals, etc. This is radical Christianity.

No, radical Christianity is terrorism. They bomb buildings, they terrorize, and they butcher and slaughter people.

 

[Crypto2015]

The genocides I was talking about were the flood, the cleansing of Canaanites, the final Egyptian plague and the promised Armageddon.
I don't believe any of them happened or will happen, mind you, but it's always saddening to see believers try to rationalize when it's OK to kill non-combatants, children et all. So long as it's their "just and loving" being doing it.

Anyway Christians persecute, attack and kill gays especially even today. There are still people who identify as Christians and think gays should be imprisoned for life or executed. Tea partiers that were even US presidential nominees supported executing gays (Looking at you Ted Cruz.) Jamaica complained up a storm when the US embassy flew a rainbow flag at half mast because it seemed like an insult against their sodomy laws where gays can be arrested and imprisoned for 10 years or more. Jamaica is a Christian country.
So let's please not pretend Christians are all roses and the Bible can't be used for ill. Because it is. All the time.

As far as I understand you are confusing genocide with God's judgement. Genocide is when some HUMAN BEINGS decide to kill another group of human beings. God's judgment is when God, in his infinite knowledge, judges and condemns a group of human beings to death. The flood was not a genocide, but God's judgment. The same is valid in regards to Armageddon. No human being will be hurting another human being at Armageddon. God will do the fighting. The exact same thing was going to take place during the war against the Canaanites. Originally, God was going to fight against the Canaanites using plagues and natural disasters. However, as a punishment for Israel's incredulity, God send them to do the fighting. It is noteworthy that Israel was completely sure that the judgment on the Canaanites had been pronounced by God himself, since the pronouncement was accompanied by miracles and wonders that all Israel witnessed.

Those Christians who harm gays are not following Jesus' example. Jesus never hurt anyone and he would have never stoned anyone to death. He came to reveal something that was superior to the Law of Moses: the Gospel of Grace and Mercy. This is what a real Christian must follow.

 

[Crypto2015]

OK, guys. I am tired of this. It is completely pointless to discuss these things with you. You hate Christianity much more than you fear Islam and because of that you'll never examine these things objectively. So, you have chosen your path in life.

 

[McBell]

OK, guy. I am tired of this. Anyway, it is completely pointless to discuss these things with you. You hate Christianity much more than you fear Islam. So, you have chosen your path in life.

Perhaps if you were to actually discuss instead of preach...

Just saying

 

[columbus]

God already appeared and did this. His words can be found in the New Testament.

This is false.
You saying that anonymous 1st century authors claim that "God says" is very different.
The reason I don't believe in religion is because religious people often mistake "I say..." with "God says...".
Tom