KatNotKathy
Well-Known Member
Also in favor of this (though a better public transportation system would be much more efficient than cars).
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The Health Care Bill Passes!
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Also in favor of this (though a better public transportation system would be much more efficient than cars).
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
thank you for making the statement i knew someone would. no they (police and firefighters) are not socialist programs. except for medicare, thats socialist.
its amazing to me that people dont seem to understand what the real definition of socialism is, then make a claim that police, etc are all social programs. They are not, they are basic infrastructure. People enjoy their benefits regardless of whether they are rich or poor, black or white, etc.
Social programs are programs of entitlements. If you are rich, you do not enjoy benefits from those programs. You are not allowed to enjoy them because you are the one paying for it. Some may say "aha! good for them! stick it to em!"
But, chances are, most of the people here are employed by someone who has alot of money, and will make decisions over the next year whether to hire new people, or let people go, based on how this legislation goes down. Social entitlements are never a good idea during times of economic hardship! You put them in when times are good, not when they are bad.
It seems like it should be common sense. Only these days, common sense aint so common anymore.:no:
McBell
Admiral Obvious
:biglaugh:
How are you able to connect the government requiring everyone to buy their own insurance to the government giving everyone a house and a car?
Seems to me that you you are merely looking for something to throw a fit over, even if you have to make it up.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
oh, you mean like all the bull **** loop holes, exceptions, etc. that the rich get so they do not have to pay their taxes?
Hey, I'm for the fair tax. No loop holes, no deductions.
When did police and firefighters cease to be socialist programs? Are you defining "socialist" in some uncommon way?
I could be wrong, but I think you are redefining "social programs" and "socialist" in a manner that would not be recognized by most political scientists nor by most professional economists.
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
socialism is a means whereby the politicians are able to buy votes. they put a system of entitlements in place, and then scream that the wealthy people want to "take that away" from you! what you wanna do, kill all the old people, you heartless bastige?
i mean, come on, all you are doing is taking money from a small minority who can afford it anyways....this is the mantra of socialism. tell me where the socialist chants we need more police or firemen? or more highways?..they don;t because those programs are infrastructure. not entitlements. you cannot buy votes from the poor by promising you will give them more cops!
i mean, come on, all you are doing is taking money from a small minority who can afford it anyways....this is the mantra of socialism. tell me where the socialist chants we need more police or firemen? or more highways?..they don;t because those programs are infrastructure. not entitlements. you cannot buy votes from the poor by promising you will give them more cops!
We've had our fair share of talks IRL over health care reform, and I do agree with you and with YMirGF that it should not be run as a for-profit venture; yet remain out of the hands of centralized power of government. But let's not simplify socialism into just one economic model, Mike. There is a HUGE rangeof theory that encompasses socialism from anarcho-communism to libertarian-socialism to a command-economy to technocratic economy to participatory economy.
We've been operating with a mixed economy forever now. There are things I don't like about the bill. But even as family, brah, the hysterics are starting to get a little tiring. If deathcamps were right around the corner we would have seen them come sooner under the Patriot Act than under HCR.
Yeah, I get it. Don't erode our rights and liberties. Just be sure that if Medicare is considered a socialist program (as has been an entitlement for a long long time) you also throw in social security and a bloated military to be consistent.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
republican thinking:
healthcare reform = free cars for everyone
same sex couple rights = marrying your own dog
:sarcastic
am I seeing a pattern?
enchanted_one1975
Resident Lycanthrope
What does the healthcare bill have to do with same-sex marriage? Just because the majority of a party has a known view on a topic does not mean that all members of that party share the view. You know, some Democrats did vote against the healthcare bill. What would you say about them?
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
who cares...Obama is clearly not American
As a socialist, Obama is clearly not American and wants homosexuals to marry a puppy
We all know as a non american black hawaiin personage....Obama really wants the insurance companies to make even more profit. Healthcare is afterall about money.... people don't matter much.
I saw a squirrel last night..I had to shoot him and eat his nuts.
I love hazel nuts.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Lets focus on the next step in Health Care.
Remove the profits from basic health care, reduce overall cost per person, and ensure every American has equal access.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health/policy/01swiss.html?pagewanted=all
Remove the profits from basic health care, reduce overall cost per person, and ensure every American has equal access.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/health/policy/01swiss.html?pagewanted=all
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Of those points, I think the key will be to eliminate the profit from basic health care. When that goes, the other two items will follow.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I'm going to take a guess and say because they're not nearly as important as healthcare. That's like saying "Why don't we just give the guy with no food a huge house, a big-screen TV and a Mercedes-Benz along with the food to keep him alive". It's a stupid question.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Wait, so providing protection for citizens is not socialist, but providing health care is? You're a smart guy, Troublemane; I can't figure out why you let yourself get bamboozled like this. You're obviously smart enough to figure out how stupid that logic is.
Thank you for being a shining example of that.
enchanted_one1975
Resident Lycanthrope
Sounds a lot like something FEMA would do. :yes:
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Well, Brownie was "doing a helluva job down there".
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
This "slippery slope" argument is a common logical fallacy used by neo-cons.
Who has ever suggested that a vehicle is a basic human right?
And while shelter could be considered a human right, no one has suggested a house for every individual. But HUD, Section 8, and Habitat for Humanity attempt to remedy homelessness through their social programs.
As has been stated earlier, it is reminiscent of the "if we let gays marry, then we will have to let a man marry his dog, or vacuum cleaner next" used by such "rational" thinkers like Dr Laura and FotF founder Dr Dobson.
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Yes ..and we are only talking about inusurance PREMIUMS for people here.Unlike Enchanted we have had to actually use our inusurance and we can not forget that there are deductables and co-pays that you have to average in what you actually spend on medical.For example right now the insurance we have is $550 a month for a family of 4..Doesnt sound outrageoues right for lets say somone making $60,000 a year thats about equal to what ya'll pay.The difference is we each have a $250 deductable for prescriptions..we have a 2,000 anual deductable for medical services..and then after that is met we still have a co-pay and for prescriptions depending on the medication for prescriptions it can be as high as 30% of the cost of the medication.My son currently takes a medication that "retails" at $500 for a 30 day supply.."Luckily" its covered under "only" the $60 (a month)copay.But if it wasnt that medication woudl be $150 a month and that is WITH "decent' insurance.And of course thats based on someone making 60,000...You would have to pay that same amount for that same insurance coverage even if you made a lot less that.
I can tell you without a doubt even though we didnt have any chronic or serious illnesses (up untill recently my husband diganosed with diabetes ..Oh and I have depression)..over the years we would have saved a LOT of money if we had paid a flat 10% tax of our income for COMPLETE medical coverage.
I would love to know that yes we are paying 10% to be able to go to the doctor,have a surgery ,get prescriptions...and not have to sit there and be worried if you need to go the the emergency room or whatever what kind of bill are you going to be slammed with even though you have done the responsible thing and kept insurance coverage even when as Enchanted pointed our you "didnt need it" or if you have to be put on a medication that you are supposed to take for the rest of your life suddenly you have you have to figure out where to come up with an extra 250..every single year and then a monthly "co-pay" on top of that of 140 or more a month.Which is what my husbands meds cost currently.So with insurance coverage just for now (we are still young) we have been hit with minimum of an additional 2,000 a year going out for medical care.OH wait excuse me ..thats not including the doctors copay..Without the medications my husbands life would be in danger.
Another example was with Blue Cross our last carrier..We had a $2500 deductable per person and the premiums were around $500..And low and behold that year my son injured his knee(had to have surgery)..BAM $2500...then my husband got a kidney stone BAMM $2500...So our medical expendatures that year doubled for two non life threatening but treatment required medical needs.
I would love to elimate the "unkowns" and just be able to count on a flat percentage and adjust our budget to that KNOWN expense.
I could go on with more stories but I think its pathetic and pitiful people have to be litterally frightened at the propsect of needing a surgery or to be put on medications as to how they can budget it in and thats WITH insurance.
BLAH!!!
Love
Dallas
Healthcare is basic infastructure in every other developed nation except here in the U.S. I have yet to understand why that is, as well as hearing any resonable explanation as to why it shouldn't be part of our basic infastructure. What makes healthcare different from police and fire department that makes it not a basic necessity of society? Why shouldn't everyone, rich, poor, black, white be "entitled" to life saving servies?Troublemane said: