The hypocrisy of U.S. Society and Free Speech

[Valjean]

A football game is a political rally; a celebration of tribal solidarity.
Dissent (What the flag symbolizes) is not welcome.

 

[Jainarayan]

People are more interested in symbols than they are in substance. They're unprincipled. They're not concerned with the freedom of conscience or political freedom the flag symbolizes -- many would eagerly discard these to preserve the tribal solidarity they really value.
We see this same thing when radical islamists freak out over disrespect to the Quran or Prophet.

Translation: "Sieg Heil!"

No, it means the NFL is stepping on its own weenie. Its own rules prohibit kneeling. It has nothing to do with anything else. Unless and until the NFL changes the rules they're being hypocrites.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I read that Kaepernick started the protest because of unfair treatment of African American's. Not black on black crime.

No one is defending criminals? Michael Brown committed armed robbery, then assault on a police officer, then disobeying an officer. Those are crimes. He didn't deserve to be shot for those crimes but when he charged the officer there was no other choice. I'm not a police officer but I would have shot the guy too. He was not a small dude, he was going to win any fight and get the gun. There is no way an officer can allow someone to take their weapon.

The protests in the streets of Ferguson were defending a criminal because he was shot by a white police officer. The white police officer has a right to defend himself.

If you want others to side with you then you have to make reasonable decisions. You can't fight with the police and you have to follow police orders just like I do.

There was a case recently where a white officer arrested a white nurse because she wouldn't take a blood sample from an unconscious criminal. The white people didn't protest in the streets. We waited for justice to work and it did.

Now, don't get me wrong, some of the things some of these police officers are doing is absolutely wrong and illegal. The officer in North Carolina (I think it was NC) shot that guy in the back when he was running away, that's murder and he was charged with murder. Those cops in New York who took down that guy and he was saying "I can't breathe", that, in my opinion, was manslaughter.

The system is not perfect, no country has a perfect system, but you have to follow the same rules that I have to follow. I have to get on the ground when an officer points his gun at me and gives me an order or I will get shot and the white people will blame me, not the officer, even if I have committed no crime.

What if a cop is pointing a gun at me because of my skin color? And you know that at the time how? Maybe the reason blacks think that is because in the poor areas they are conditioned to think that? If you teach that to your children then this stuff that is going on is never going to end.

Players can take a knee all they want. I disagree with it but so what, they have that right. Now, I do wonder why they stay here in this country if they really feel that things are that unfair. Why doesn't Kaepernick take his millions and move to Liberia where he can live like a king and won't have to face any white unfairness?

I grew up in a very poor area, my mother and father divorced when I was 4 years old. She was an alcoholic and very abusive and she controlled the food. The doctors constantly warned her that I was malnourished but she would not put food in the refrigerator until one of my brothers separated from his wife (that saved my life) and came home to live with us.

My dad was worse than my mom because he was a Jehovah's Witness. The area I lived in was 80% black, every bicycle I ever had was stolen from me, and as I was being starved at home the black kids would steal my lunch money on the way to school. I would tell my mom that I got my lunch money stolen and that I needed an extra $2 to pay the cafeteria back and she would yell at me and accuse me of lying.

The black kids that I went to school with for years and years didn't call me by my name, they called me "white boy". I had one black kid friend for a while but whenever I went over to his house his mom would never talk to me and she would just give me this wicked stare. Our house was broken into and robbed 8 times, we never got anything back.

Those black kids I grew up with were taught that all white people are racist and that black people can't be racist or prejudice and that no matter what white people would never let them succeed so they could do whatever they wanted to get ahead. They would always cheat at whatever they could and cut in line and gang up in fights against white guys. I could go on and on, I'm not even telling you half of it.

And you want to complain about hypocrisy?

"
There was a case recently where a white officer arrested a white nurse because she wouldn't take a blood sample from an unconscious criminal. The white people didn't protest in the streets. We waited for justice to work and it did."

Key word, she was white. But the officer acted out of line and I went this very same issue last night with a CHP booking a DUI suspect. I think you need to look deper than just the Ferguson issue, we are talking about decades of police brutality and injustices with no overight. I think what non-people of color needs to understand is that these grievances are real, people are frustrated and mad. Unfortunately this madness spills over. I invite you to watch a video of this Baltimore cop (former):

 

[Jainarayan]

Regardless, The NFL has stated that they'll side with the players over Trump, so bumpkins can continue to belch, boo, and bellow from the bleachers. Like Trump said, those offended by the protests shouldn't attend the game. They can stay home and watch NASCAR or WWE instead.

Then they are hypocrites and unworthy of any kind of support.

 

[Super Universe]

Yes, I was born in the US. Everything you said is so wrong there is no word for how wrong it is. I think you should review SCOTUS cases that have already limited free speech in the workplace.

Uh, everything I said is not wrong. Why isn't the NFL fining the players who take a knee then if it's against the rules?

Because once they do that they open themselves up to a court case that they know they will lose.

 

[Super Universe]

There is no such thing as black on black crime? Right, it's all white peoples fault somehow. Has any black person ever done anything wrong? When they did it was because of slavery, right?

Whites commit more violent crime than blacks? They do but they make up 77% of the population whereas blacks make up 13% of the population and they commit 38% of the crime. I don't care what color a criminal is, keep building more prisons, I will pay higher taxes to keep them locked up.

White people are not outraged by white on white crime? If we get together and march in the streets how is that going to stop any white criminal? They're criminals, they're not going to stop just because some other people march in protest.

BET is owned by a white guy? So, the man is exploiting black people with a tv network? Man, you just can't get a break.

Historically blacks couldn't get an education at all white institutions? How about now?

Affirmative action is an attempt to make up for centuries of discrimination? It is but what about the opportunities you have that you wouldn't have if you weren't here? You use slavery as an excuse to get affirmative action and other benefits but you were never a slave. Your parents were never slaves either. You are trying to benefit from the pain and suffering that your ancestors went through. You have more opportunities than the people in Africa.

Also, you call yourselves African American's but have you ever been there? I have actually been to Africa but I wouldn't call myself African American because of just one visit. Do you practice any African traditions? Do you cook African foods? And southern food is not African food. The only thing that makes you "African" is your skin color but you don't want whites to judge you by skin color. And you want to complain about hypocrisy?

My ancestors on my mom's side arrived in the US on May 27, 1897. They had to wait at Ellis Island until confirmation that they had relatives living in the US that could take them in. On June 18, Ellis Island caught fire and burned down. They lost everything. The USA did not say "Oh, we're so sorry, we'll give you ten acres and a mule to make up for it." You know what the USA said to them, "If you don't like it you can get back on the boat."

You don't want fairness, you want an excuse.

 

[Jainarayan]

Uh, everything I said is not wrong. Why isn't the NFL fining the players who take a knee then if it's against the rules?

Because once they do that they open themselves up to a court case that they know they will lose.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A football game is a political rally; a celebration of tribal solidarity.
Dissent (What the flag symbolizes) is not welcome.

I miss the days when you just went to a football game to watch people play ball and have a good time.

 

[Father Heathen]

Then they are hypocrites and unworthy of any kind of support.

*shrugs* Then don't give them any. Personally, I could care less about the NFL or pro sports in general.
However, I do find it refreshing when people realize that actual principles are more important than flag idolatry.

 

[Valjean]

Uh, everything I said is not wrong. Why isn't the NFL fining the players who take a knee then if it's against the rules?

Because once they do that they open themselves up to a court case that they know they will lose.

They're a business, and good players are a scarce commodity. They can't afford to enforce the rules, however much it may irritate them.

 

[Super Universe]

"
There was a case recently where a white officer arrested a white nurse because she wouldn't take a blood sample from an unconscious criminal. The white people didn't protest in the streets. We waited for justice to work and it did."

Key word, she was white. But the officer acted out of line and I went this very same issue last night with a CHP booking a DUI suspect. I think you need to look deper than just the Ferguson issue, we are talking about decades of police brutality and injustices with no overight. I think what non-people of color needs to understand is that these grievances are real, people are frustrated and mad. Unfortunately this madness spills over. I invite you to watch a video of this Baltimore cop (former):

The nurse was white? She was. If the nurse had been black there would have been protests in the street, right?

The country is not perfect. How am I supposed to take the protests seriously when I know that you pretty much have the same opportunities that I have? If this was the 1950's, I would absolutely agree with you that things need to change.

Do you know what the black on white crime is compared to the white on black crime? How many links do you want me to provide? It would be endless.

Do you want to hear about the white lady at home with her two small children when a giant black guy starts breaking in the front door with a crow bar and she called her husband (he called the police) and then she got her kids upstairs and grabbed their five shot revolver. The black guy got through the door and saw her and ran upstairs. She fled into the master bedroom with the kids and they went up into the attic. They were just trying to get away, the black man chased them and came up the attic ladder, she shouted "I have a gun" as her and kids went to the back of the attic. The kids were crying. When the black guy (who had done time in prison for robbery) came up the ladder the lady had no choice and moved forward and put all five rounds into him. He fell, ran out of the house, and passed out in the car trying to get away. The police got him. Those children are traumatized. How many more stories do you want to hear? There are thousands. Not ten stories of unjust police shootings, thousands of stories of black on white crime. Black people protest in the streets over ten police crimes a year while thousands of blacks commit crimes against whites and you want to talk about hypocrisy?

Do you want to hear the one about the four ghetto black males (from my old neighborhood actually) who drove up to a rich white area and walked inside houses and put guns to peoples heads and stole cell phones and wallets. They hit two houses and the third house was locked up. They were pulled over by the police and caught. Both of my nieces live in that area and both have small children.

There have been decades of police unjust treatment of blacks? I agree. But that does not make current black crime okay. That's not something you try and bargain for, the excuse to go out and commit crime against blacks or whites or anyone. You want to get away with crime? Are you kidding me?

The grievances are real? And you think whites don't have any grievances against blacks? Oh, that would make us racists but blacks who have problems with whites are not racists. And you want to talk about hypocrisy?

I grew up in a black neighborhood. Three gas stations went out of business because they were robbed constantly and people from other areas would not come into our area. The supermarket went out of business, a family owned hamburger stand went out of business, a dry cleaning business, a bar, and two other businesses I can't remember what they were went out of business.

We had the "ghetto bird" aka police helicopter overhead about once a week. We would hear automatic weapons fire at least once a week. I saw drug dealers get beat down in the street and everyone went inside and closed their doors and no one ever called the police. My 60 year old mom got knocked down and her purse stolen just buying spaghetti at the nearby supermarket because she got lazy and didn't want to drive the 6 miles to a better area. My bus pass got stolen by a big black kid and I had to ride my ten speed 9 miles to high school, then my ten speed got stolen out of the garage.

How many more stories do you want to hear about how unfair things are in the USA?

 

[Father Heathen]

I miss the days when you just went to a football game to watch people play ball and have a good time.

That changed when people started treating it like it was more than just a silly, meaningless form of amusement.

 

[Super Universe]

They're a business, and good players are a scarce commodity. They can't afford to enforce the rules, however much it may irritate them.

The NFL can't afford to enforce the rules? They fine players for writing on their socks or headbands.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The nurse was white? She was. If the nurse had been black there would have been protests in the street, right?

The country is not perfect. How am I supposed to take the protests seriously when I know that you pretty much have the same opportunities that I have? If this was the 1950's, I would absolutely agree with you that things need to change.

Do you know what the black on white crime is compared to the white on black crime? How many links do you want me to provide? It would be endless.

Do you want to hear about the white lady at home with her two small children when a giant black guy starts breaking in the front door with a crow bar and she called her husband (he called the police) and then she got her kids upstairs and grabbed their five shot revolver. The black guy got through the door and saw her and ran upstairs. She fled into the master bedroom with the kids and they went up into the attic. They were just trying to get away, the black man chased them and came up the attic ladder, she shouted "I have a gun" as her and kids went to the back of the attic. The kids were crying. When the black guy (who had done time in prison for robbery) came up the ladder the lady had no choice and moved forward and put all five rounds into him. He fell, ran out of the house, and passed out in the car trying to get away. The police got him. Those children are traumatized. How many more stories do you want to hear? There are thousands. Not ten stories of unjust police shootings, thousands of stories of black on white crime. Black people protest in the streets over ten police crimes a year and you want to talk about hypocrisy?

Do you want to hear the one about the four ghetto black males (from my old neighborhood actually) who drove up to a rich white area and walked inside houses and put guns to peoples heads and stole cell phones and wallets. They hit two houses and the third house was locked up. They were pulled over by the police and caught.

There have been decades of police unjust treatment of blacks? I agree. But that does not make current black crime okay. That's not something you try and bargain for, the excuse to go out and commit crime against blacks or whites or anyone. You want to get away with crime? Are you kidding me?

The grievances are real? And you think whites don't have any grievances against blacks? Oh, that would make us racists but blacks who have problems with whites are not racists. And you want to talk about hypocrisy?

I grew up in a black neighborhood. Three gas stations went out of business because they were robbed constantly and people from other areas would not come into our area. The supermarket went out of business, a family owned hamburger stand went out of business, a dry cleaning business, a bar, and two other businesses I can't remember what they were went out of business.

We had the "ghetto bird" aka police helicopter overhead about once a week. We would hear automatic weapons fire at least once a week. I saw drug dealers get beat down in the street and everyone went inside and closed their doors and no one ever called the police. My 60 year old mom got knocked down and her purse stolen just buying spaghetti at the nearby supermarket because she got lazy and didn't want to drive the 6 miles to a better area. My bus pass got stolen by a big black kid and I had to ride my ten speed 9 miles to high school, then my ten speed got stolen out of the garage.

How many more stories do you want to hear about how unfair things are in the USA?

Apparently your intent here is to not have dialogue but to argue back and forth with me regarding the ills that people of color go through with respect to law enforcement Trump's issues of our protest etc and in that, this is my last post to you because quite frankly what I say has fallen on deaf ears considering I posted an 8:50 minute video for you to watch. In order to have an understanding one must be willing to listen and trade ideas, that is the epitome of having a conversation. You know, I'm not going to comment on the anecdotes you've presented here because all that is going to do is trade stories for stories and we'll get nowhere. This thread isn't about black on white or white on black, but to talk about the issues I personally have with Trump and the societal expectation placed upon players that they don't have a right to speech, yet those that argue about free speech vehemently fall silent to the reasons behind taking a knee but rather replace the true reason with the flag and soldiers which is incorrect. All you're doing is sharing stories which is fine, but crime is everywhere, its not a black thing its not a white thing its a poverty thing. Anyway I wont waste my fingers on you for the rest of this thread because you're not comprehending the mode of discussion here.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The NFL can't afford to enforce the rules? They fine players for writing on their socks or headbands.

You cannot force players to stand for the pledge and if they're protesting and you infringe that, its a lawsuit. Point is Trump needs to focus on things that are bigger than taking knees.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No, it means the NFL is stepping on its own weenie. Its own rules prohibit kneeling. It has nothing to do with anything else. Unless and until the NFL changes the rules they're being hypocrites.

I'd like to see those rules regarding the prohibition of kneeling do you have proof of this?

Edit:

"Despite this claim, it does not appear that there is anything the NFL rulebook requiring players to be on the field for the national anthem. Article 1, Section 2 of “Game Timing” only requires the kickoff is not delayed, and the coin toss is on schedule -- but says nothing of when players are required to be on the field outside of having sufficient time to warm up.

Source:Are NFL players required to be on the field for the national anthem

This refers about being on the field during anthem

The following is about standing for the anthem:

"
Twenty years ago, the NBA suspended a player who refused to stand for the national anthem. The NFL will not be doing the same thing.

“Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the National Anthem,” the NFL said in a statement issued Saturday, in response to the controversy that emerged when 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick opted not to stand during the playing of the national anthem on Friday night in Santa Clara, prior to a game against the Packers.

The NBA based its suspension of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf on a rule that requires players to stand during the playing of the national anthem. The NFL has no such rule, and the Collective Bargaining Agreement is silent on the subject.

And so Kaepernick and any other player has the right to not stand during the national anthem. Whether other players will follow Kaepernick’s lead remains to be seen."

Source:NFL: Players are encouraged but not required to stand for national anthem

There is no rule requiring you to stand although it says you should, kinda like a job preferring a certification but not required, same applies here, so there I no hypocrisy here.

 

[Jainarayan]

I'd like to see those rules regarding the prohibition of kneeling do you have proof of this?

Pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook:

“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition...

...It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

 

[columbus]

I'd like to see those rules regarding the prohibition of kneeling do you have proof of this?

He has posted them twice.
And Kaepernick agreed to follow them before he got his first paycheck
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook:

“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition...

...It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

Refer back to my edited post

 

[Epic Beard Man]

He has posted them twice.
And Kaepernick agreed to follow them before he got his first paycheck
Tom

"
“Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the National Anthem,” the NFL said in a statement issued Saturday, in response to the controversy that emerged when 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick opted not to stand during the playing of the national anthem on Friday night in Santa Clara, prior to a game against the Packers.


“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color,” Kaepernick has since said. “To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder.”

The NBA based its suspension of Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf on a rule that requires players to stand during the playing of the national anthem. The NFL has no such rule, and the Collective Bargaining Agreement is silent on the subject.

And so Kaepernick and any other player has the right to not stand during the national anthem. Whether other players will follow Kaepernick’s lead remains to be seen."

Source from 2016:NFL: Players are encouraged but not required to stand for national anthem

I need to see links to where you guys are getting this because mines contradicts his.