The hypocrisy of U.S. Society and Free Speech

[Super Universe]

I said police shooting, and you try to make it black on black crime. What was your question about hypocrisy? One more time!

Those last two sentences. What if the cop is pointing a gun at you for something you are, like your skin colour, and didn't care if you were guilty or innocent, and had a rep for executing people just like you. Think fight or flight might kick in? Black people get murdered for being black. Compared to that, what's taking a knee?

If Kaepernick was taking a knee to protest against the THOUSANDS of blacks murdered in this country every year white people would be more accepting. I'm sure they would still disagree with it because it's the flag but that would make more sense.

In this country, Police shoot something like 1,000 people a year and about 700 of those are white, 300 are black. About 24 of those blacks are unarmed. Now, maybe they were fighting with the police officer, maybe the officer was a woman and couldn't defend herself without using lethal force, and I'm sure some of them are unjustified and those cases should be prosecuted. So, blacks are protesting the less than 24 cases but not protesting the THOUSANDS of cases of black on black crime but we're not supposed to mention those because you don't care about black on black crime. You just want to point out the bad whitey's.

AND those cases where the 24 blacks are killed the blacks almost always have some culpability because they were doing something wrong, either they are carrying a gun or trying to get away and risking others lives. Now, that does not justify what the cops are doing but you get into a vehicle chase for miles and miles and watch someone almost kill other people and the anger and adrenaline builds up.

It's easy to sit back and judge when you watch a movie of something, it's different when your life is on the line because some career criminal keeps stealing hard working peoples cars and risking others lives because they don't want to get a real job and they were taught that they have an excuse forever called slavery.

 

[Jainarayan]

But it has had a positive outcome. Just look at the debate it's started in this forum alone.

That's not a positive outcome. What is anyone on this forum going to do to change things? Talk is cheap. What is it doing to change the perceived problems? Has it started "sensitivity" training for police officers and depts. who are allegedly unsympathetic towards minorities, specifically African Americans? Has it done anything to curb black-on-black or white-on-black or black-on-white or ... violence? I don't see it.

 

[Wirey]

If Kaepernick was taking a knee to protest against the THOUSANDS of blacks murdered in this country every year white people would be more accepting. I'm sure they would still disagree with it because it's the flag but that would make more sense.

In this country, Police shoot something like 1,000 people a year and about 700 of those are white, 300 are black. About 24 of those blacks are unarmed. Now, maybe they were fighting with the police officer, maybe the officer was a woman and couldn't defend herself without using lethal force, and I'm sure some of them are unjustified and those cases should be prosecuted. So, blacks are protesting the less than 24 cases but not protesting the THOUSANDS of cases of black on black crime but we're not supposed to mention those because you don't care about black on black crime. You just want to point out the bad whitey's.

AND those cases where the 24 blacks are killed the blacks almost always have some culpability because they were doing something wrong, either they are carrying a gun or trying to get away and risking others lives. Now, that does not justify what the cops are doing but you get into a vehicle chase for miles and miles and watch someone almost kill other people and the anger and adrenaline builds up.

It's easy to sit back and judge when you watch a movie of something, it's different when your life is on the line because some career criminal keeps stealing hard working peoples cars and risking others lives because they don't want to get a real job and they were taught that they have an excuse forever called slavery.

I genuinely have no idea how to respond to this, other than to say I sincerely hope you never find out just how wrong you are.

 

[Valjean]

That's not a positive outcome. What is anyone on this forum going to do to change things? Talk is cheap. What is it doing to change the perceived problems? Has it started "sensitivity" training for police officers and depts. who are allegedly unsympathetic towards minorities, specifically African Americans? Has it done anything to curb black-on-black or white-on-black or black-on-white or ... violence? I don't see it.

Change is preceded by talk. Talk raises awareness and makes people think. I've been hearing about this issue on radio, TV and news programs all day.
Social change is brought about by demonstrations.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'd like to remind everyone that the NFL is neither the federal nor state government. Nobody is calling for athletes who kneel during the National Anthem to be arrested.

This being the case, this is not a free speech issue.

I repeat:

This is not a free speech issue.

I took a look at the NFL rulebooks from 2016 and 2017. Turns out there's not a single mention of the National Anthem.

And so... the issue becomes whether the NFL disciplining kneeling players in any way violates the player's contract.

And of course there could be a discussion about whether there SHOULD be rules and regs for the NFL (or indeed any professional sports organizations) regarding conduct during the playing/singing of the National Anthem.

At the end of the day, if the NFL thinks it'll lose money over fans who stop watching the game because of this, they'll do something about it... and if they don't, they won't. It's that simple.

 

[Super Universe]

I genuinely have no idea how to respond to this, other than to say I sincerely hope you never find out just how wrong you are.

You could respond by agreeing that blacks do think that racism against white people is accepted in the black community.

You could agree that African's once had white slaves in Egypt about 3,500 years ago.

You could agree that almost all of the problems that black people face are caused by other black people.

You could agree that many blacks use slavery as an excuse.

You could agree that black people have about the same opportunities that white people have.

I have already agreed with you that some white police officers have committed crimes against blacks and should be punished. I have also agreed that there is still some white racism in the US.

 

[Super Universe]

I'd like to remind everyone that the NFL is neither the federal nor state government. Nobody is calling for athletes who kneel during the National Anthem to be arrested.

This being the case, this is not a free speech issue.

I repeat:

This is not a free speech issue.

I took a look at the NFL rulebooks from 2016 and 2017. Turns out there's not a single mention of the National Anthem.

And so... the issue becomes whether the NFL disciplining kneeling players in any way violates the player's contract.

And of course there could be a discussion about whether there SHOULD be rules and regs for the NFL (or indeed any professional sports organizations) regarding conduct during the playing/singing of the National Anthem.

At the end of the day, if the NFL thinks it'll lose money over fans who stop watching the game because of this, they'll do something about it... and if they don't, they won't. It's that simple.

Kneeling during the anthem is a free speech issue. The tradition is to stand for the national anthem, kneeling is a protest, it's not a vocal protest but free speech is not just about vocal protests.

You could wear a shirt that says "Dump Trump" on it. That falls under free speech.

Personally, I think these people who get all upset about the flag being disrespected have no idea about what the US is really about. The flag is dyed cloth sewn into a pattern. It's one symbol for the country, it's not THE symbol for the country. If someone wants to go down to a store and pay $19 for a US flag and then burn it then they're just stupid. $19 can get you about three chocolate sundae's at Dairy Queen.

If all we are is a dyed cloth flag then we aren't worth anything.

 

[Wirey]

You could respond by agreeing that blacks do think that racism against white people is accepted in the black community.

You could agree that African's once had white slaves in Egypt about 3,500 years ago.

You could agree that almost all of the problems that black people face are caused by other black people.

You could agree that many blacks use slavery as an excuse.

You could agree that black people have about the same opportunities that white people have.

I have already agreed with you that some white police officers have committed crimes against blacks and should be punished. I have also agreed that there is still some white racism in the US.

My point was that the protest is completely about the police. Who cares about Africa 3500 years ago? Who cares if some failures use slavery (or the Yankees usurping states rights) as an excuse? Who cares about black on black anything? The. Protest. Is. About. Cops. Executing. Black. People. For. Being. Black. Everything else is obfuscation. So.....

What if the cop is pointing a gun at you for something you are, like your skin colour, and didn't care if you were guilty or innocent, and had a rep for executing people just like you. Think fight or flight might kick in? Black people get murdered for being black. Compared to that, what's taking a knee?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Kneeling during the anthem is a free speech issue.

Not if the government isn't involved. Did you actually read my post?

 

[Jainarayan]

Change is preceded by talk. Talk raises awareness and makes people think. I've been hearing about this issue on radio, TV and news programs all day.
Social change is brought about by demonstrations.

I'm waiting for the changes. The only thing this episode is doing is causing division. Let's review:

1. It's a game.
2. The national anthem has been a tradition before sporting events for decades.
3. Should the national anthem be played? Probably not.
4. If the players want to do something, they should start focus groups, town meetings, part with some of their laughably exorbitant salaries to cure these social ills.
5. It's easier to whine and moan and grandstand. Flash 'n trash and no substance.

 

[Super Universe]

Not if the government isn't involved. Did you actually read my post?

Free speech only applies to government involvement? Not true. Free speech does not give you the legal right to say racist things or overtly sexual things in the workplace.

Your idea of free speech is that you can or should be able to say anything any time you want. That's not legal free speech. Legal free speech just means that there is a forum available that you can use to disagree, not that you can disagree whenever and where ever you want.

 

[SkepticThinker]

El wrong-o...

The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook. It states:

“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition...

...It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

Booyah!!!

FACT CHECK: Are NFL Players Required to Stand on the Field During the National Anthem?

 

[Jainarayan]

FACT CHECK: Are NFL Players Required to Stand on the Field During the National Anthem?

I already noted that was debunked by Snopes. Keep up.

 

[Valjean]

Perhaps they could stand with their backs to the field. That's always a potent symbol.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I already noted that was debunked by Snopes. Keep up.

Sorry, I'm a bit slow today, it being Monday and all.

 

[Sunstone]

“You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Heartbreak House

 

[Sunstone]

But what are these guys doing other than grandstanding? That's not a protest if it has no positive outcome. What are they doing to correct these "social injustices" they are protesting? Tebow got ragged on and ripped apart for his displays of his faith, but he's also involved in a number of charities, especially for kids. That looks to me like he's putting his ideals as a Christian into practice. What has Kaepernick done? And I'm going to trot out the old "then why are you still in this country?" The answer is if you're not part of the solution (which the players are not) then you're part of the problem. They're doing nothing to correct the ills they are "protesting".

They're doing a damn sight more than people who are doing nothing.

 

[Jainarayan]

They're doing a damn sight more than you are.

How do you know?

Besides, that's kind of a low blow, at me personally, dontcha think?

 

[columbus]

How about a show of hands.
How many of the people who think Kaepernick's right to free speech are being infringed were similarly outraged when BLM shut down a Bernie Sanders rally or a gay pride parade in Toronto?
Tom

 

[Sunstone]

How do you know?

Besides, that's kind of a low blow, at me personally, dontcha think?

You're right. I was way out of line. My apologies and I'll make an effort not to commit the same mistake twice. I've edited my post.