The Jesus Myth

[outhouse]

I completely agree with this statement. To what degree do you think there was exaggeration?

I sent you this in pm but i liked ity enough to put it here since you helped me to stumble on this fact



When the rich people got the word of the poor who kept it alive with oral tradition, im sure they just like now, thought this just would not do, and was changed it to meet upstanding social and political needs.

 

[outhouse]

what questions did they ask to get from one location to another?

wheres the nearest gas station, i have to pee and im lost

 

[jelly]

wheres the nearest gas station, i have to pee and im lost

great.
now what do you think the response would have been?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Absolutely not. The message of early Christianity was only important to early Christians. Jews did not pay any significant attention to Christians for hundreds of years.

I think I've lost the thread of your argument. Anyway, you disbelieve the stories about Jewish persecution of the 1st-century Christians?

I really can't imagine why you would think that the early churches needed a long time to develop their faith. Most of it was taken from Greco-Roman philosophy and rhetoric, the rest a mutilation of Judaism, and very little unique myth. All the raw material was there - someone just came along and put it together (Paul).

It's the material that is older - not Jesus or the churches.

You said that resurrection belief was an extremely early doctrine in the church. Are you thinking that the church(es) already existed before Jesus' ministry and that Jesus and the resurrection idea were folded into them after they were founded?

I don't know. I think this part of our argument may be too obscure to continue, but as you please.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

belief is one thing, but to write about one like yeshua, one would have to almost be a follower or take serious interest. thats why there was not allot out there

Paul was certainly literate. And he was in Jerusalem within a couple of years of Jesus death. And I have a hard time believing that all of the early church leaders were illiterate.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That's simply not the case, man. ALL of the research concerning travel in the first century indicates that travel was fairly quick - it was dangerous and expensive, but it wasn't uncommon. There were trade routes all over the ancient world - by land and sea.

I'm aware that a person could travel from Jerusalem to Corinth in a few days if he wanted to do that and could afford it. It's the Mediterranean -- a major trade highway long before the Romans arose.

But I also believe that travel difficulties would slow down the establishment of churches which were seeded from Jerusalem. Especially if Jesus had been unremarkable, why would missionaries have been racing out of Jerusalem to convert pagans to Christianity within a year of Jesus' death?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think I've lost the thread of your argument. Anyway, you disbelieve the stories about Jewish persecution of the 1st-century Christians?



You said that resurrection belief was an extremely early doctrine in the church. Are you thinking that the church(es) already existed before Jesus' ministry and that Jesus and the resurrection idea were folded into them after they were founded?

I don't know. I think this part of our argument may be too obscure to continue, but as you please.

No. I think that the message of the resurrection was included in the earliest Christian witness - it was there at the founding of the church.

As for first century persecution of Christians by Jews - that's news to me. Paul said that he did it, but he was a zealot going against the teachings of his mentor.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Do you think that you could give us the sum of your knowledge in a few letters?

So Paul didn't write about Jesus' ministry because he was like Darwin? He needed to wait 30 years to congeal all the data into a Grand Theory?

If that's your claim, I'm not sure it passes the straight-face test, but let's run with it. With Darwin, we have a mass of material which dwarfs his Origin -- as a scrapyard dwarfs a single thimble within it. So where is Paul's data on Jesus?

Why would his thimble (letters) have survived, but not a single scrap of the rest of the scrapyard?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm aware that a person could travel from Jerusalem to Corinth in a few days if he wanted to do that and could afford it. It's the Mediterranean -- a major trade highway long before the Romans arose.

But I also believe that travel difficulties would slow down the establishment of churches which were seeded from Jerusalem. Especially if Jesus had been unremarkable, why would missionaries have been racing out of Jerusalem to convert pagans to Christianity within a year of Jesus' death?

They didn't. It took about 13 years for the first churches to appear.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So Paul didn't write about Jesus' ministry because he was like Darwin? He needed to wait 30 years to congeal all the data into a Grand Theory?

If that's your claim, I'm not sure it passes the straight-face test, but let's run with it. With Darwin, we have a mass of material which dwarfs his Origin -- as a scrapyard dwarfs a single thimble within it. So where is Paul's data on Jesus?

Why would his thimble (letters) have survived, but not a single scrap of the rest of the scrapyard?

Well, there is a scrap. 1 Corinthians 11 contains the oldest account of Jesus's "last supper."

Have you ever read Paul's letters?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

And this is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

Superman and Mighty Mouse!

Let's face it, I require a massive handicap in order to give these debates any chance of fairness, so I'll be Mighty Mouse and give up my superpowers.

I am ready, Supe. Take your best shot.

(Oh, yeah. I love hubris almost as much as I love understatement. My chest is hairless and red-raw from all the beatings it's taken.)

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

yes john baptised yeshua and followed Johns teachings and carried on the tradition that branched out eventually into christianity. John is very well the seed that everything started from

Ah, my bad. I thought you were talking about the gospeler John.

I don't know much about John the Baptist. Can you tell me what we know about John and how we know it? Do you consider him an historical character?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

not 6 months ago I was saying the same EXACT thing lol after countless hours of research I started getting the hang of it.

You are a mighty mind. And a dedicated and unbiased scholar. But don't despair about my ignorance. I'm pretty quick on my feet and am ready to be instructed by you.

what you may not know is that self proclaimed deitys and prophets and religions including pagan versions were on every street corner and could not be avoided.

Actually, I watched the Monty Python movie years and years ago. Isn't it "The Holy Grail" where they spoof the soapbox prophets? I can rarely remember a film title, but I remember the essence of scenes.

So thanks, but there's no need to further instruct me on the plethora of prophets.

Its why no one knew or cared about jesus whiel he was alive. it took time for the story to grow and gain steam through oral tradition....

I agree. So can you explain why there were already established churches throughout Asia Minor, either before or within a year or so of Jesus' death?

It's a truth which I can't seem to reconcile with the historical Jesus.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Superman and Mighty Mouse!

Let's face it, I require a massive handicap in order to give these debates any chance of fairness, so I'll be Mighty Mouse and give up my superpowers.

I am ready, Supe. Take your best shot.

(Oh, yeah. I love hubris almost as much as I love understatement. My chest is hairless and red-raw from all the beatings it's taken.)

(I hope you realize I was kidding)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's rather difficult to discern exactly what's being debated at this point.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

They didn't. It took about 13 years for the first churches to appear.

OK, that's a bit of data which I didn't have. Can you tell me how you know that?

There were no churches outside of Jerusalem until around 45CE?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well, there is a scrap. 1 Corinthians 11 contains the oldest account of Jesus's "last supper."

Does mainstream scholarship accept Paul's authorship of 1st Corinthians?

Have you ever read Paul's letters?

Not since childhood. And I doubt I'd read them now, although I'd probably be interested in the Cliff Notes.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not since childhood. And I doubt I'd read them now, although I'd probably be interested in the Cliff Notes.

That speaks volumes.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

(I hope you realize I was kidding)

Yeah, I knew you were kidding. I was just playing along. Sometimes people take me way too seriously. When reading me, the best thing is to assume good-naturedness unless you can actually see the scheen of my bullwhip.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

That speaks volumes.

Thanks, man. And just think -- you haven't heard the half of it yet!