Response: Likewise.
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The Koran is the Word of God? How do we know this?
- Thread starter MSizer
- Start date
Response: Likewise.
It would help Fatihah if you had some argument,"i see a statment,wheres the proof" does'nt really cut it,to an observer one would take this as you have lost an argument.
Response: Only in the eyes of the close-minded. The argument has been presented throughout the thread. However, when the table is turned and now the request of proof is on them, we see a sudden scatter.
But surely you agree that the Qur'an is a book of faith ,not facts
Response: Not at all. The evidence clearly proves to the contrary.
what evidence? you have'nt presented any,the Qur'an isn't a science book,even Dr Z.Naik says as much so at least he got something right.
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the welcome back... and yes, I completely understand what this thread is asking... I still have the same answer though. I feel that my answer is valid enough for the original question. Maybe my answer may be on a "different path" but that doesn't mean my context is wrong.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Wow, excellent irrefutable orator Zakir Naik admitted that?! When?
Dezzie
Well-Known Member
Well... from what I have experienced and from what I have read, Religion is all in Faith. From what I originally got from Religion is, God is testing those who still carry on their beliefs no matter what other "Scientific Explanations" may arise. Then people ask, "but how do we know the Bible is true? How do we know the Qur'an is true?" Why does it matter? Both "books" or... mind some of you... religious texts, have wonderful meaning... the words and the lessons they both provide are great places to stem from. There is nothing wrong with what God or Allah may want for us (IF he 100% exists). I have come to realize since I have been away from the forum, is that... we all came from somewhere... Our spirits came from something somewhere. The ways in which I think, feel, and the many things I believe in, came from SOMEWHERE. I honestly do not want to believe that when I die, I will just rot in the ground. Maybe the Bible or the Qur'an are not the actual words of God... So what? Why do people constantly need to ask whether or not the Qur'an or the Bible are true? Not many people can even answer that question. Why ask it? If you can't answer the question for yourself, why do you need to throw it out there?
Before people start making assumptions of me... let me add that I was that person once. I was a Mormon at first but only because my parents were. I changed after that and decided that I would be Agnostic because I still believed that a God existed. Soon after becoming Agnostic I did my research... I asked those questions... I made automatic assumptions of other people because of their beliefs. Trust me... I've had my fair share of looking down to others. I have noticed a big change in myself lately though... I have Faith in a God... in any religious text. I have educated myself in many things.
The question I want to ask is... Why ask how anyone knows whether or not a religious text is true? Is it all for debate and nothing more? Is throwing that question out there a way to rid all religion from people's lives? What is the reason?
I'll say this once more... if you can not answer the question yourself... why on Earth do you think someone else could answer it?
I believe that IF there is an actual God... he wants us to have Faith in him no matter what proof is available to us.
On one of his Websites,i think it was Fansofzakirnaik.com,i didnt read much of it as i've seen all the arguments he presents before like Muhammed is mentioned in the song of Solomon :no:,the most amusing thing is what he says about dealing with an Atheist,when i first read it i laughed but upon refection i thought it quite sad.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
I remmeber once in front of a live audience he said:
"I have never seena ny book which says "FACT of Evolution", instead, I only see "THEORY of Evolution"!"
Considering this man is supposed to be a "Doctor", he's either a fake or he's being intellectually dishonest.
syberpriend
Active Member
I think you will have the same problem that many theists have. You (must) assume that a good investigation starting from that "zero-point" would have to lead to the conclusion that (in this case) the Quran is truely the word of God.
Now the problem is that rather obviously for most "i start from zero" this definetly is not the conclusion that is drawn and those people are not all plain stupid or have a "wrong understanding".
As to your questions in above paragraph:
Why shouldnt a person in the 7th century write such a book? There is nothing in it in my view which couldnt have been written by humans. Actually there are many errors depending on the method you utilize to examine the quran.
As for your second question:
Just look at the number of different religions with all their followers which make the same claim that you do and you will see that there are more than enough other books that are in the same "quality level" as the quran.
Now you make a lot of claims about that scientific stuff.
I have had such debates already more than 20 years ago.
And i know that each generation there again come people that think this science claim to be true. Well IF you actually went over the quran in the way you asked others todo it and took into account science then you wouldnt even think about a second about this claim. There are no "scientific facts that were not known" in the quran unless you put them there using supposed knowledge of today.
Actually most of what is said in the quran which you PICK for science is (when analyzed with the same scrutiny as scientific claims made somewhere else) errorneaous.
Most examples that you mention actually are starting with the shape of the earth, the functions of the mounts and who knows what else.
Embryology is my favorite. A paid for special third edition of Moores book which never made it to any new edition and which never appeared ANYWHERE appart of arabic countries and "universities".
If you believe the quran to be Gods word then by mere declaration of faith you cant allow any contradiction to exist no matter how obvious it is. The verse like this challenge has already been met before my lifetime and duringmy lifetime again and again. I myself have already met it with more than enough muslims. It only depended on whether they thought it was from the quran or not.
Actually the challenge itself is already a display of imperfectness for no challenge makes sense if no clear rules for the challenge are given. And we can see in this forum how the challenge is interpreted depending on the answers that are given to meet it.
Instead of asking others to investigate the quran neutrally (which was/is done by many) you should do so yourself first
For me, I believe it as word of God, so I dont need to perform any test or to get any proof, its u who is not believing, so u should give some reason for not accepting it, by providing authentic and perfect proof for disaproving
For me, I believe it as word of God, so I dont need to perform any test or to get any proof, its u who is not believing, so u should give some reason for not accepting it, by providing authentic and perfect proof for disaproving
Wrong,the onus is on those who present it as fact
Response: Post 2 proves to the contrary. And I've never claimed that the qur'an is a science book.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
O RLY?
I always hear that the reason why the Koran is the word of God is because it's (apparent) excess of "Scientific Miracles", amongst other things.
OK just for you Fatihah,the Qur'an is a book of faith,not facts either scientific or otherwise.
Response: Post 2 proves to the contrary.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Argh come on Fatihah this now is getting really boring when you just keep on doing this sorta stuff.
Seriously, I think I've seen enough of "Refer to Post #....", especially when the post you refer to usually says in itself "refer to this post......".
Boring.........
Then lets look at post 2:
Response: In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".
Here we have two tests. Once applied, we come to learn that the qur'an is in fact the truthful word of Allah(swt).
No facts there Fatihah,a whole lot of faith but no facts.
Response: In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an we read, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".
Here we have two tests. Once applied, we come to learn that the qur'an is in fact the truthful word of Allah(swt).
No facts there Fatihah,a whole lot of faith but no facts.