The law of God, still abides.

[Demonslayer]

sounds like a bunch of school kids telling the teacher "I don't like your rules so I'll make my own."

As well they should, don't you support the questioning of authority? Where would we be if we accepted rules others have set for us? At one time the law included human slavery (which the Bible also supports), women not being able to vote (also Biblically supported), among other awful, terrible things. Where would we be if no one stood up and said "I don't like these rules?"

Rules should stand on merit, not simply because "it's the way we've always done things."

I'm not upset at all but just waiting to see something in the Bible that says people get to choose.

Why would the manifesto of a dictatorship provide choice? God is a supreme ruler, there is no choice under his iron fisted rule.

But again someone who has no religion probably does not care what the Bible says.

It's not that I don't CARE what the Bible says, I care very much what the Bible says because so many people follow it.

For example I wish greatly the Bible did not say God considers gay people to be abominations that should be put to death. If the Bible didn't say that we'd have a heck of a lot less bigotry in the world.

Independant thought is what gets people in trouble

Next time someone asks me why I have such distaste for religion, I'm going to try to remember to quote this line.

"Independent thought is what gets people in trouble." What an awful way to live, and I'm sorry I'm not trying to insult you personally, you've been discussing honestly and openly. I just find this idea beyond sad.

because they decide they do not need to do what God tells them to do.

But if you go by "what God tells them to do" we'd still be making women wear hats and stay silent in church, beating our slaves, stoning adulterers, etc. You can't just pull out "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not bear false witness" and pretend God's law as outlined in the Bible should be followed today. NO ONE does those things, nor should they. The people still stoning adulterers, which is what God tells us to do, are look at as barbaric maniacs today, and rightly so.

As I said in a post earlier, according to God's commandments, a man carving a statue on Sunday who yells "GAWDDAMMIT!" when he hits hit thumb with a hammer is guilty of breaking three commandments, while the man who gambles his son's college fund away while smoking crack is breaking none.

Maybe you ought to try a little independent thought after all. You might see that God's law, when taken as-is, makes very little sense in 2015.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

God's law is the Ten Commandments and I see very little that does not apply to today's people. Yes, keeping the Sabbath might be an inconvenience for some people but would anyone really be harmed if everyone did no work on that one day. The other commandments ( killing, stealing,adultery ) all make sense also. There is nothing in the commandments that says you should keep slaves or beat your wife. Some people believe Jesus did away with the commandments. A few posts back it was said that we get to choose what laws we want to follow. I am simply asking where in the Bible does it say the commandments are not still to be followed or people get to choose. What I mean by independant thought is that a lot of drug addicts probably sit around and independently think that there is nothing wrong with doing drugs. And a lot of thieves independently think there is no harm in stealing. There is nothing wrong with questioning authority but I still see no way anyone would be harmed by following the 10 commandments and the world would be a lot better if everyone followed them. And I do not think God gives us a choice. Everyone will be judged by how well he followed these few simple laws.

 

[outhouse]

This being a Biblical debate then it's the God of the Bible.

Not exactly.

There could be Els law, or Yahwehs. or the redacted version of both which is more often then not.

You also have Pauls version. You also have later authors probably disciples who tried to soften up Pauls stance.

Then you have God with the son that was redefined to add jesus.


Maybe from your perspective there is one, but historically it gets to be a bit more complicated.

 

[Demonslayer]

God's law is the Ten Commandments and I see very little that does not apply to today's people.

The first 4 don't do much if you ask me. Don't make a "graven image?" I mean who cares? We discussed the sabbath, no one cares about that really either. Lord's name in vain is silly, who cares if I yell JESUS! when someone jumps out and scares me. And "no other Lord than me" is just self promotion for the religion. I don't these apply to anyone today except perhaps the more fundamentalist Christians.

But I'll give youthe other six I guess. Honoring your parents, not killing, not stealing, not cheating and not lying are all still relevant. I'm on the fence about coveting. A little coveting can be motivation to go after what you want. But I'll give you that one too because at least it's not absurd like the first 4.

Yes, keeping the Sabbath might be an inconvenience for some people but would anyone really be harmed if everyone did no work on that one day.

No, absolute no harm is done from not working on the Sabbath. My point is, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with morality or "being good." God had 10 commandments and this one is a complete waste. No harm is done, but nothing important is said either. He should have replaced this one with "thou shalt not enslave" in my opinion.

There is nothing in the commandments that says you should keep slaves or beat your wife.

No, but there is nothing in the commandments that forbids these things either. That was my point. God is more worried about someone carving a statue of Buddah or working on the Sabbath than he is about slavery or domestic abuse. It's just weird to me that God wouldn't address these things.

A few posts back it was said that we get to choose what laws we want to follow.

We do.

I am simply asking where in the Bible does it say the commandments are not still to be followed or people get to choose.

It doesn't. You keep on this point but there is no need, I think everyone agrees with you that the Bible doesn't say "thou may follow whichever commandments you choose." God is a dictator, you have no choice. I'm in agreement with you here, if we're strictly talking about "does the Bible say you can choose what commandments to follow." Of course it doesn't.

What I mean by independant thought is that a lot of drug addicts probably sit around and independently think that there is nothing wrong with doing drugs. And a lot of thieves independently think there is no harm in stealing.

Well, first of all there is nothing in Gods commandments about drugs so with or without the commandments, humans need to deal with that issue on their own. But I don't really think this is true. Thieves don't think stealing is OK, they know it's not, that's why they strive not to get caught. Smokers may make excuses for their behavior, but they know smoking is not good for them, etc. I think most people...with the exception of some sociopaths...know they are doing wrong when they are doing it. I have cheated on women before, I knew damn well I was being a bad person.

but I still see no way anyone would be harmed by following the 10 commandments and the world would be a lot better if everyone followed them

My grandmother was an anti-semite. I married a women raised in a Jewish family and she refused to come to the wedding, and in large part never spoke to me again until she died. In large part this was due to "thou shall have no other God's than me." Meaning her belief was that non-Christians all go to hell, so by marrying a woman who wasn't Christian, we were dooming our kids to hell. That's harm.

If a businessman loses his business because he can't open on Sunday, that's harm.

Overall though I'm not in complete disagreement with you...certainly living by things like "don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat" is a good way to live.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not exactly.

There could be Els law, or Yahwehs. or the redacted version of both which is more often then not.

You also have Pauls version. You also have later authors probably disciples who tried to soften up Pauls stance.

Then you have God with the son that was redefined to add jesus.


Maybe from your perspective there is one, but historically it gets to be a bit more complicated.

Let's try and stay in one place for a minute. Edumacate me as to why El and Yahweh are different.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I think everyone agrees with you that the Bible doesn't say "thou may follow whichever commandments you choose."

We do get to choose which law we are going to live under, according to the Bible.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

God's law is the Ten Commandments...

The 10 Commandments are only a part of God's law. God gave commandments at different times from the Garden of Eden into the New Testament.

 

[Demonslayer]

We do get to choose which law we are going to live under, according to the Bible.

It does? Where does the Bible say we can ignore God's commandments?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It does? Where does the Bible say we can ignore God's commandments?

I've answered this here a number of times. Before the Law man was a law unto himself. God gave the Mosaic Law to the Jewish people. Christians follow the law of faith. It's in Romans.

Now, while we can choose to be natural man Jewish or Christian, we cannot exclude part of whatever law we fall under because of those choices.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Why would Jesus say "if you love me, keep the commandments"? He did not say follow the law of faith. Are natural man, Jewish and Christian the only three choices? What about the other religions of the world? Millions of people follow other religions. What law are they under?

 

[outhouse]

Let's try and stay in one place for a minute. Edumacate me as to why El and Yahweh are different.

Because they were two different deities that belonged to a family of deities.

Only while in exile where they compiled together and redacted as one god in text. But the people did not all follow this and many still viewed both as gods.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Because they were two different deities that belonged to a family of deities.

And where do you get this information from? Seems I've never heard of El. Is this family of deities Biblical?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Why would Jesus say "if you love me, keep the commandments"? He did not say follow the law of faith. Are natural man, Jewish and Christian the only three choices? What about the other religions of the world? Millions of people follow other religions. What law are they under?

One question at a time please. At the time He was speaking to Jewish people under Jewish Law, the same Law He was under at the time. The crucifixion opened the door to the freedom from being under either the natural law (which, Biblically, encompasses all other beliefs) or Mosaic Law.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I am still looking for the verse that says people do not have to follow the 10 commandments. I can't find it so if you have one please help me by quoting it here.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am still looking for the verse that says people do not have to follow the 10 commandments. I can't find it so if you have one please help me by quoting it here.

Romans Chapter 6 & 7 lay it out for you based on a progression Paul began in chapter 1. Sorry dude but there are no one verse answers.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

this reminds me of the wide and straight path that leads to destruction but those who are willing to look for the narrow hard to find path will find it worth the trouble. sounds like a bunch of school kids telling the teacher "I don't like your rules so I'll make my own."

Like Jesus?

What I mean by independant thought is that a lot of drug addicts probably sit around and independently think that there is nothing wrong with doing drugs. And a lot of thieves independently think there is no harm in stealing. There is nothing wrong with questioning authority but I still see no way anyone would be harmed by following the 10 commandments and the world would be a lot better if everyone followed them. And I do not think God gives us a choice. Everyone will be judged by how well he followed these few simple laws.

Do you think it wrong when Jesus killed fruit trees and a herd of pigs that did not belong to him (arguably theft and coveting what does not belong to you)? Do you think it wrong when Jesus disrespects his family, including his mother (another commandment broken)? Do you think putzing around on the Sabbath, enough to draw the attention of religious leaders with no obvious lives, was wrong?

The first 4 don't do much if you ask me. Don't make a "graven image?" I mean who cares? We discussed the sabbath, no one cares about that really either. Lord's name in vain is silly, who cares if I yell JESUS! when someone jumps out and scares me. And "no other Lord than me" is just self promotion for the religion. I don't these apply to anyone today except perhaps the more fundamentalist Christians.

I would think that making Jesus God, or saying Satan rules this world and NOT God, would make them idolators...

It doesn't. You keep on this point but there is no need, I think everyone agrees with you that the Bible doesn't say "thou may follow whichever commandments you choose." God is a dictator, you have no choice. I'm in agreement with you here, if we're strictly talking about "does the Bible say you can choose what commandments to follow." Of course it doesn't.

But it IS amazing how flexible those commandments are when God tells people to do things specifically against those commandments....

And where do you get this information from? Seems I've never heard of El. Is this family of deities Biblical?

That's because in English it gets glossed over. El is the Canaanite High God that is more like the God we think of. However, (H)e also had a family of gods and goddesses. Yahweh was a tribal volcanic/storm/war god introduced by Moses. There's a reason Jacob became Isral-EL and not Isra-Yahweh. Oh, and archaeology notes people believed Yahweh was married too.... I just don't get how people can think the pantheon isn't biblical, since the bible moans CONSTANTLY that people are worshipping other gods...
edit: Oh, and before anyone says that the bible is just saying the people were wrong for that, remember that Yahweh supposedly visits the Council of El to gripe about how lazy and apathetic and useless the other gods are. If there were no other gods, why the lecture?

 

[Demonslayer]

But it IS amazing how flexible those commandments are when God tells people to do things specifically against those commandments....

You mean like, thou shalt not kill...

...unless they are adulterers, homosexuals, witches, necromancers, fortunetellers, anyone who strikes or swears at their father or mother, fornicators or false prophets?

Then thou shalt kill the living crap out of them.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Sandy Whitelinger points to chapter 6 and 7 of Romans as showing people do not have to follow the commandments. Romans 6:15 says "shall we sin because we are not under the law? God forbid." and Romans 7:12 says " the law is holy and the commandments are holy." So this does not seem to indicate the law has been eliminated. Looks like there are not only no one verse answers but no answers at all. You can look for excuses but God gave His laws for all people at all times. Nothing has cancelled them.

 

[Demonslayer]

Sandy Whitelinger points to chapter 6 and 7 of Romans as showing people do not have to follow the commandments. Romans 6:15 says "shall we sin because we are not under the law? God forbid." and Romans 7:12 says " the law is holy and the commandments are holy." So this does not seem to indicate the law has been eliminated

I can't speak for Sandy but his or her response seemed to indicate something else. See the quote below. I believe Sandy is saying you can choose to be under Jewish Law, Christian Law, etc, and that's where the choice is. I don't think she's saying, for example, that once you choose to live under Biblical law that you can then pick and choose which parts of that law to follow.

I've answered this here a number of times. Before the Law man was a law unto himself. God gave the Mosaic Law to the Jewish people. Christians follow the law of faith. It's in Romans.

Now, while we can choose to be natural man Jewish or Christian, we cannot exclude part of whatever law we fall under because of those choices.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Sandy Whitelinger points to chapter 6 and 7 of Romans as showing people do not have to follow the commandments. Romans 6:15 says "shall we sin because we are not under the law? God forbid." and Romans 7:12 says " the law is holy and the commandments are holy." So this does not seem to indicate the law has been eliminated. Looks like there are not only no one verse answers but no answers at all. You can look for excuses but God gave His laws for all people at all times. Nothing has cancelled them.

Once again I'll repeat myself, the Mosaic Law has not been eliminated.

Perhaps you will get over looking for one verse answers. Romans is a long progressive argument that builds on itself. There are no sound bites. Look more closely at the analogy of the husband the wife and the Law in chapter 7. It is set up by the entirety of chapter 6.