The Law

[Latuwr]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote to and requested of my Brother, Ken Brown:

"Please make that your last post to me or about me and I will do the same for you."

My Brother has followed your request so why do you continue to post to and about him? Perhaps deep down you desire to continue to discuss the ideas of Paul as expressed in Romans 5 with us? You yourself did move on by examining Romans 7 so why did you think it necessary to break your word and post to Ken and continue to criticize his ideas concerning Romans 5 as he expresses them to others?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Ken Brown]

So far we seem in agreement.
This part seems a little obscure to my hearing. Can you please clarify what you're saying? Are you saying we will live on earth or won't live on earth coz I can't tell so I don't know how to answer?
Again I'm not sure what your question is or how it relates to the first part of your post? A little confused sorry.

Shalom JB, I want you to know that I am responding to you and I deleted the other part of your post. It is good that you seem to be in agreement as it is not easy to see those things. And again, I appreciate your efforts and demeanor.

To clarify about Elohim creating Adam and Eve to live forever on a paradise earth, no, that was not the plan. The plan was, from before the foundation of the earth, to create a physical man that would live on a physical earth, to learn good from evil and then choose the good. This physical earth is likened to a "womb" by Paul in Romans 8:16-25, and WE as being Children of Elohim are developing to come forth in our BIRTHS (2 Corinthians 5:1-5) to attain to our Spiritual Bodies (1 John 3:2), and not the old carnal, natural, physical bodies we gestated in, like Adam and Eve's. So whether or not we will live on the physical earth, who knows, as this physical earth is destined to be destroyed (Matthew 24:35) and burned up , and then a new heaven and earth will exist in righteousness (2 Peter 3:10-13). But I am certain that Elohim did not have a plan for Adam and Eve to live forever in the flesh on this physical earth, when He first created them. Would you "plan" to do something KNOWING that it was impossible to occur?

Concerning Eve's claim that Elohim said not to "touch" the fruit of the tree, this is something we have discussed and debated for many years with people, as it is something we believe she "embellished." That is the nature of a carnal/fleshly mind...to take a word from one person and add something to it thinking you are helping the story and being truthful. That is embellishment, and Eve did that. At no point are we told by Elohim that they should not touch, and they could have touched the fruit, and if they had not eaten it, it would not have been a transgression. The command was not to EAT of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden. Hopefully that explains it better. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken

God is not the legalistic tyrant portrayed at Mount Sinai. he gave them the god they desired with all the rules and regulations. God's law is perfect. It is the perfect way for us to live. If we had a guide or manual on how to live it would be God's law. God did not want to do it as he did at Mount Sinai though. Jesus showed us at the Sermon on the Mount how God would do it as a loving Father. That is why Paul gave the quote I showed in 2 Cor. If the laws that brought punishment were good how much better the laws from a loving Father just giving us advice. God said in Zech 4:6 that he doesn't demand allegiance to his laws, he earns it by the truth. Paul called it God's discipline. Let's say one of God's laws was don't jump off a ten story building. The sin of the Jews was not trusting in a loving Father. Paul says the wages of sin is death. Satan says good quote to distort. Satan says God told you not to jump off the building and you did so now God is going to kill you. NOT WHAT PAUL MEANT!!!!!!!!!!!! The pavement would do the killing. The consequence of your actions is what kills you. That is why Paul calls it God's discipline. As a loving parent he allows you to do what you want and learn through the consequence of your actions. His laws are perfect. Sooner or later you'll figure out jumping off a ten story building as your Father said was not a good idea. Is there a better way of learning?

The reason we do the immoral acts we do is because we have freewill. Satan has everyone thinking mankind is to have freewill. It was one of his lies he spread in heaven that God created beings should have freewill. With freewill you usually choose the option that is best for you. We all have cars and think little of carpooling. How has this worked out in Iraq? we have killed thousands over there. we don't say it is because of the oil, but we wouldn't have gone there if there wouldn't have been the oil fields. In Sudan over a million Christians were genocided, we're not there. Only an all knowing God can orchestrate billions of beings in their choices so all will be happy. I can try to convince you, but its God's word. This 6000 years has been God demonstrating the results of freewill-the consequence of having freewill.

JEREMIAH 10 : 23 "I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps."

Shalom Ron, it appears I am a little dull of thought tonight as I really didn't see how your answered my question, but I don't think you really understood it. You had some nice stories, but my question is, WHY did Elohim ADD the Torah to the Covenant He made with Abraham? Isn't that was Paul speaks about? The "promises" were made by a covenant to Abraham and His Seed (Genesis 15:18, Exodus 2:24, Leviticus 26:42, Galatians 3:16), and Elohim ADDED a New Covenant (The Torah) to that existing covenant with Abraham and His Seed, and that New Covenant (The Torah) cannot disannul the previous covenant to Abraham (Galatians 3:17). So WHY did Elohim ADD the Covenant of The Torah to the Covenant of Abraham and His Seed? What was the purpose for adding the Covenant at Sinai to the Covenant of Abraham? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

 

[Ron Hackel]

The Seed was to come at a specific time in history, is this your understanding? The Seed was to come through the woman (symbolic for God's chosen people). Agree or not? If the Jews refused to believe in God how were they to be kept together until Jesus was to come? God gave them a pagan god that they were willing to follow. The god at Mount Sinai was God disguised as a pagan god.

 

[Ron Hackel]

All the laws and regulations were what people seem to feel are necessary. God simply gave them what they desired.

COLOSSIANS 2 : 14 "having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that WAS AGAINST US AND THAT STOOD OPPOSED TO US; he took it away nailing it to the cross"

The law never made anyone think god was a loving God. It was opposed to us knowing the true character of God. Jesus came and showed the true character of God thus negating the law with its rules and regulations. No one could ever possibly love the god shown the Jews at Mount Sinai. You could be deathly afraid of him, but no one could love him. But, this is the god the churches now preach. Maybe that's why Isaiah 4:1 says 7 women surround one man and say, 'we will eat our own food and provide our own clothes; only let us be called by your name. Take away our disgrace!" Jesus brought the manna from heaven. They want their own truth. He gave us the robe of righteousness (knowing God) they have an altogether different meaning for righteousness.

Seven women (all God's people) that is why Revelation 14:4 says the 144,000 that are sealed with God's name (character) do not defile themselves with women (Again God's people who are supposed to know his name). The same reason God says, "Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering my sheep............I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified (Jeremiah 23:1-4) or why God says he breaks the covenant he made with all the nations (Zech 11:10) or why he says he gets rid of the three shepherds in the last days (Zech 11:8) (three world religions teach the Mount Sinai god-Jews, Christians and Muslims) These same religions that say God must have his justice. MALACHI 2 : 17 "You have wearied the Lord with your words. How have we wearied him?....By saying..........where is the God of justice?" Or the people that say some of God's children belong in hell ISAIAH 45 : 9-11 "Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?.............woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?.........do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?"

 

[Ken Brown]

The Seed was to come at a specific time in history, is this your understanding? The Seed was to come through the woman (symbolic for God's chosen people). Agree or not? If the Jews refused to believe in God how were they to be kept together until Jesus was to come? God gave them a pagan god that they were willing to follow. The god at Mount Sinai was God disguised as a pagan god.

Shalom Ron, yes, I believe The Seed had to come at the Appointed Time (14th day of the 1st MOON), according to what Moses wrote in The Torah (Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 9:3, Numbers 28:16, Deuteronomy 16:1-2), and He came to His OWN, and His OWN received Him not (John 1:11). There was a hardening "in part," but eventually, when the full number of Goyim come in, ALL Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

How do you explain Malachi 4:4 and John 5:45-47? Why do we need to remember The Torah of Moses, which Elohim commanded at Horeb/Sinai with the statutes and judgments, and why is it that if we do not believe what Moses wrote, we will not believe what Yeshua says?

I ask again, WHY the Torah (Galatians 3:19)? Please Ron, explain Paul's answer in a simple, concise, explanation? So far I haven't been able to grasp your answer, and maybe that's my fault, not yours. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ron Hackel]

The John verses are no problem. I'll have to think about the verse in Malachi. The Jews refused to accept God as he was. When God presented them a picture of a pagan God they told Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." (Ex20:19)

DEUT 18 : 17 "The Lord said to me: What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth"

Jesus would come and show them what God was like. God's actual appearance is like fire-unapproachable light. At the second coming he is coming back in all his glory-this unapproachable light. Paul said we had to learn from the Jews because they would not accept as a God of love. Satan has made all religions teach that God is going to burn some in one fashion or another. Jesus came to show God's character so people will trust to go into this fire. There will be two types of fire at the second coming. God's, which is just his glory

ISAIAH 43 : 2 "When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned."
And this verse shows the two types.

ISAIAH 33 ; 12-15 "The peoples will be burned as if to lime; like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze...............The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: Who of us can dwell with consuming fire? who of us can dwell in everlasting burning? He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects extortion and keeps his hands from accepting bribes ect ect"
One fire destroys the earth exploding and the other is God

 

[Ken Brown]

The John verses are no problem. I'll have to think about the verse in Malachi. The Jews refused to accept God as he was. When God presented them a picture of a pagan God they told Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." (Ex20:19)

DEUT 18 : 17 "The Lord said to me: What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth"

Jesus would come and show them what God was like. God's actual appearance is like fire-unapproachable light. At the second coming he is coming back in all his glory-this unapproachable light. Paul said we had to learn from the Jews because they would not accept as a God of love. Satan has made all religions teach that God is going to burn some in one fashion or another. Jesus came to show God's character so people will trust to go into this fire. There will be two types of fire at the second coming. God's, which is just his glory

ISAIAH 43 : 2 "When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned."
And this verse shows the two types.

ISAIAH 33 ; 12-15 "The peoples will be burned as if to lime; like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze...............The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: Who of us can dwell with consuming fire? who of us can dwell in everlasting burning? He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects extortion and keeps his hands from accepting bribes ect ect"
One fire destroys the earth exploding and the other is God

Shalom Ron, here is my answer. Paul said that the Torah was added for the "kharin" of transgressions. The Torah was given to promote or give transgressions is how Paul viewed why the Torah was added or what it served. The Greek word "kharin" G5484 is similar to "kharis" G5485 with means grace or gift. Here is the verse in question:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of (kharin-G5484) transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[rosends]

The John verses are no problem. I'll have to think about the verse in Malachi. The Jews refused to accept God as he was. When God presented them a picture of a pagan God they told Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." (Ex20:19)

What? First, in my text you quoted 20:16. Next, where do you see a picture of a "pagan God" being presented? Third, your logic is "Jews didn't accept God as he was. Jews rejected pagan god" so you see God as he was as a pagan God?

 

[Ron Hackel]

rosends
I'm sorry my Bible (NIV) has the verse I quoted as 20:19. Did the Jews accept God? Psalm 78 said they didn't. Jeremiah 13:11 says they didn't. Stephen in addressing the Sanhedrin said they didn't. Jesus in the parable of the tenant said they didn't accept him. John the Baptist said to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Repentance meaning have a change of mind. Read Isaiah 5 it said the Jews never bore good fruit. John told them to bear good fruit because they worshiped the Mount Sinai god. Jesus said the Jews would never bear fruit again. If they accepted him, why was the covenant given to the Gentiles?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote to and requested of my Brother, Ken Brown:

"Please make that your last post to me or about me and I will do the same for you."

My Brother has followed your request so why do you continue to post to and about him? Perhaps deep down you desire to continue to discuss the ideas of Paul as expressed in Romans 5 with us? You yourself did move on by examining Romans 7 so why did you think it necessary to break your word and post to Ken and continue to criticize his ideas concerning Romans 5 as he expresses them to others?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

I also ask him not to speak of me in posts to others which the post I replied to was doing by crafty wording which like I said any idiot could see was clearly aimed at me.

If you cannot see that then your intelligence must below that of the mentioned. Not blanketly so, but in certain areas, which is a thing common to us all along the way as we grow more mature.

And while that is your problem as you are not my master or judge either one, but neither am I yours, thank you for expressing your opinion. But I disagree with it.

This is what I mean about all who have been corrupted by false religion's common taking of what the scriptures teach concerning love and turning it into petty rules of do and don't which they then use to judge others while only imagining that they live by God's love.

The truth is the love most live is a selfish love that most would sooner use as a tool to criticize others with than apply it to themselves like they are supposed to do. We are not supposed to criticize the love of others but just apply love to others. Since ones have sought to criticize my love I am justified to tell them this. They have themselves deceived that nice words prove different about them. But those nice words cannot alter the fact that they misuse God's love by turning it into rules of do and don't which they then judge others with. The love they thus end up practicing ought not be called love at all. It is want-to-be love due to their ignorance.

It is their twisted love which stirs all the trouble in this world. Their brand of love teaches intolerance as it cushions men away from having to learn to have a thicker skin when it comes to what others say. Whenever a word they dislike is spoken they attack it rather than letting love cover over a multitude of sins.

I am certainly not perfect, but I am also certainly glad that I am waking up to the hypocrisy of commonly taught religious love. It is indeed the cause of all the wars in this world.

 

[rosends]

rosends
I'm sorry my Bible (NIV) has the verse I quoted as 20:19. Did the Jews accept God? Psalm 78 said they didn't. Jeremiah 13:11 says they didn't. Stephen in addressing the Sanhedrin said they didn't. Jesus in the parable of the tenant said they didn't accept him. John the Baptist said to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Repentance meaning have a change of mind. Read Isaiah 5 it said the Jews never bore good fruit. John told them to bear good fruit because they worshiped the Mount Sinai god. Jesus said the Jews would never bear fruit again. If they accepted him, why was the covenant given to the Gentiles?

Did the Jews accept God when? You refer to Sinai when they are afraid of God, not that they reject him. If you want to discuss Jeremiah's critique of Jews LATER when they need Jeremiah to scold them, then do so, but don't tie it to Exodus or claim that they were shown a pagan God at Sinai. Psalm 78 recounts the history of the Hebrews and how often they sinned and didn't not follow God's rules but it never says that rejected God, nor does it mention Sinai at all. Isaiah 5 doesn't in my text say that the Jews never bore good fruit. His vineyard produced wild berries, not grapes. During Isaiah's time God decides that his people are deserving of punishment and this will lead to their repentance and return.

You ask about the covenant's being given to gentiles. I answer simply, it wasn't.

 

[Ron Hackel]

I was using the NIV so I thought maybe they translated wrongly. I went on line to three different Eng-Heb Bibles NONE said wild berries. They said wild grapes. They didn't produce grapes that would produce wine.

Psalm 80 compared the Jews to a vine taken from Egypt. Jesus said he was the true vine. Being Jewish do you only believe in the Old Testament?

 

[rosends]

I was using the NIV so I thought maybe they translated wrongly. I went on line to three different Eng-Heb Bibles NONE said wild berries. They said wild grapes. They didn't produce grapes that would produce wine.

Psalm 80 compared the Jews to a vine taken from Egypt. Jesus said he was the true vine. Being Jewish do you only believe in the Old Testament?

The Hebrew for the fruit is b'ooshim (which only appears in that form 2 times, both in Isaiah 5). The classic commentator, R. Shlomo Yitzchaki explains it: "Similar to grapes, and they are called lanbrojjses in Old French."

[sadly, it seems, this forum automatically inserts links to another version of the text. Use this one

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16301#v=11

to see what I see]

The Metzudat Tziyon calls them weeds, saying the word is related to the word "basha" (Job 31:40) which is translated as weeds or thistles. I am using the Judaic Press Edition (though the Schottenstein also has "weeds" for the Job use).

Psalm 80 mixes its metaphor as the vine grows and (verse 11) "Mountains were covered [by] its shade, and its branches were great cedars". Rarely are the branches of a vine cedars. Rarely does a cedar give fruit. But if you want to take it literally, then according to Psalm 80, the vine DID give good fruit that other people and animals ate at.

Being Jewish, lets just say that I don't believe in the gospels. What I DO believe in is much more complex than just the "Old Testament."

 

[Ron Hackel]

In either case it didn't bear grapes. I don't know if someone that has the use of the New testament can really converse with those who only have the Old. For you it's like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. The New Testament explains so much that was in the Old. Christians that have use of both don't even have a clue, so for you understanding what it really means would be almost impossible. But I'll give it a try if you'd like. I stay friendly and don't call names. A few questions. Do you know what a Jewish kiasm is? Gabriel told Daniel that the Jews were supposed to do away with sin in 490 years. What did he mean by that? What did he say would happen if they didn't? Hosea said the Jews had broken the covenant as Adam did. What did he mean by that? Why did God keep telling the Jews he didn't desire sacrifices? If they didn't reject the God that he was, why did they pick up the weapons of the Egyptians that drowned at the Red sea? God had just destroyed the greatest army of that time without them lifting a finger, yet they armed themselves. Are you still waiting for a Messiah to come? What do the Jews teach about how this all ends?

I guess that's a good start.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Good cop, bad cop, hey there Ronald?

Enjoy the prestige.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
Psalm 78 says every time God did something good for them, they still did not believe he would do the next thing. They said he saved them from the Egyptians just so they could die of thirst. Then they said he gave them water just so they could starve to death. The pattern continued until God finally relented and gave them the god they seemed to expect. If they didn't believe in a loving God he tested, if they'd believe in a pagan type god. And the answer was yes. He then gave them all the rules and regulations they were to follow..

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

Why would someone that loved you do this, unless this is what you seemed to want?

 

[Ron Hackel]

MC
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[Mountain_Climber]

MC
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You don't obey James 4:11 any more than I do.

But you are willing to make yourself come across as more righteous by participating in the judgment of me just to make yourself seem more acceptable.

And I have deliberately been speaking as I have just to bring this very sort of thing out in the open to you concerning the quality of the love you imagine you have and are so comfortable by that you no longer see yourself.

Someone has to do it.

 

[Ron Hackel]

What are you talking about. I saw that someone had been bad mouthing you, but I read almost none of that post. Didn't have a clue what they were talking about and didn't care to know. That was between you and whoever. Don't think of myself as righteous. God is the one that is righteous in that he punishes no one. The only thing that I think of myself is that I was given knowledge that no one seems to be able to grasp that God is not going to punish anyone. Only by thinking that he is will you receive a punishment. A self inflicted one at the second coming. I'm just trying to show that all the verses that talk about burning and punishment result from not trusting in a loving God at the second coming and running from him and dying on an earth that is about to explode.