The Law

[Mountain_Climber]

What are you talking about. I saw that someone had been bad mouthing you, but I read almost none of that post. Didn't have a clue what they were talking about and didn't care to know. That was between you and whoever. Don't think of myself as righteous. God is the one that is righteous in that he punishes no one. The only thing that I think of myself is that I was given knowledge that no one seems to be able to grasp that God is not going to punish anyone. Only by thinking that he is will you receive a punishment. A self inflicted one at the second coming. I'm just trying to show that all the verses that talk about burning and punishment result from not trusting in a loving God at the second coming and running from him and dying on an earth that is about to explode.

Then it was at their expense you elevated your self esteem. That is just as wrong matter not who it is we judge.

As I said in a previous post I am a member of no recognized religion of this world.

So I feel free to test their claim of love to see if they really live by it. When i find a group that does, I will seek to associate with them more intimately. For Christ said they would be known by their love. But I am not finding that love in any of them for they all use love as though it is another form of that Old Law to judge others with.

 

[Ron Hackel]

My self esteem can't be that high because I'm not understanding what you are talking about. Good night.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

My self esteem can't be that high because I'm not understanding what you are talking about. Good night.

That was an appropriate response. Perhaps not the best, but appropriate as it was non-judgmental. Or was it? What were you feeling and thinking in yourself?

I don't ask that expecting an answer, for that is your business. I ask because that is what we all should ask ourselves in such moments as our emotions from years of sin play upon us. For to be clean outside we must first be clean inside. And the facade of niceness often just covers that over as a cheap cloak to satisfy us.

Good night.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
Psalm 78 says every time God did something good for them, they still did not believe he would do the next thing. They said he saved them from the Egyptians just so they could die of thirst. Then they said he gave them water just so they could starve to death. The pattern continued until God finally relented and gave them the god they seemed to expect. If they didn't believe in a loving God he tested, if they'd believe in a pagan type god. And the answer was yes. He then gave them all the rules and regulations they were to follow..

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

Why would someone that loved you do this, unless this is what you seemed to want?

Shalom Ron, I'm not sure, but do you take Paul's teachings into account? Paul states in Galatians 3:19 that the Torah serves to bring in or give (G5484-kharin) transgressions. You make it appear that the Israelites were responsible for this happening, and that is incorrect, Elohim wanted EVERYONE dying for their OWN sins, not Adams. Paul states elsewhere that BEFORE the Torah, everyone was dying because of Adams transgression (Romans 5:12-14), not their own. Now, everyone was sinning from Adam to Moses, but for that sin to be "imputed," the Torah had to enter in, so that everyone could be dying for their OWN transgression. So Paul teaches that the Torah entered in so that Adam's transgression (breaking a direct command of Elohim) could INCREASE (Romans 5:20), and this is similar to Galatians 3:19 where he states the Torah was added to promote or give transgression. Ron, do you follow Paul's thinking here at all? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIIM!

If love is the fulfillment of the Torah, and it is, then it is impossible to honor ELOHIM and serve one's fellow man through engaging in sin which is anomia, that is, activity without the practice of love. Love commands that one does not bear false witness over against another, and love does command that we should not silently tolerate each other's sin:

Leviticus 19:17-18

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I, YAHWEH.

From the perspective of both my Brother, Ken Brown, and myself, you yourself are bearing false witness against our Brother, the Apostle Paul, as you attempt to teach others concerning Romans 5. I am not speaking of Romans 6 and 7 because I have not examined your teaching there as of yet. Even so, if we are certain that you have taught in error concerning Romans 5, that fact that you choose to excuse yourself from any further conversation with us does not mean that love requires me or Ken to refrain from teaching the truth concerning Romans 5.

When I write, I always give a salutation as I have above, and my Brother, Ken, generally does the same or he will provide a quote to show to whom his post is directed. If we direct our comments to someone beside you yourself on issues that relate to Paul, do you really imagine that we are actually writing to you? And do you really expect that we will remain silent with others concerning any issue that we have discussed previously with you? If it was important enough to discuss with you, then it is likewise important enough to discuss with others.

You have control over what you do and say, and we likewise have control over what we do and say, that is, if we have learned in climbing the Mountain to fulfill our word.

Mountain Climber, do you believe that it is important for you to keep your expressed word to others?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[rosends]

In either case it didn't bear grapes. I don't know if someone that has the use of the New testament can really converse with those who only have the Old. For you it's like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. The New Testament explains so much that was in the Old. Christians that have use of both don't even have a clue, so for you understanding what it really means would be almost impossible.

I hope you realize that I could have written the exact same thing to you except with the words "Oral Law" replacing "New Testament." Trying to explain the Torah to someone not aware of the Oral Law is generally useless because that person lacks a full text to work with. Understanding what it all really means would be pretty much impossible for you.

But I'll give it a try if you'd like. I stay friendly and don't call names. A few questions. Do you know what a Jewish kiasm is? Gabriel told Daniel that the Jews were supposed to do away with sin in 490 years. What did he mean by that? What did he say would happen if they didn't?

I have seen claims of chiastic structure in Daniel. I have also seen explanations which ignore that reading and present other understandings. Have you done any research into the historical number of years and what it corresponds to? I can give you resources -- here is one understanding http://drazin.com/?7._The_L-RD'S_Anointed
just scroll down. Also
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledg...exts/daniel-9-a-true-biblical-interpretation/
I seen no reason to cut and paste long explanations. You are more than capable of reading them on the source pages.

Hosea said the Jews had broken the covenant as Adam did. What did he mean by that? Why did God keep telling the Jews he didn't desire sacrifices? If they didn't reject the God that he was, why did they pick up the weapons of the Egyptians that drowned at the Red sea? God had just destroyed the greatest army of that time without them lifting a finger, yet they armed themselves.

Actually, Hosea and others point out that God does not want sacrifices if they come without the people's adhering to the laws. Following the rules is primary - the outward show is not persuasive if it is not reflective of sincere piety. Hosea, though, also gives us another way to demonstrate this connection to God (prayer instead of sacrifice). Also, while God does protect us, he also expects us to defend ourselves and not be reliant on miracles (Josephus makes a different point but I don't know his source material).

Are you still waiting for a Messiah to come? What do the Jews teach about how this all ends?

Yes, I wait everyday. For an explanation of the Jewish concept of Messiah and the messianic age, I recommend

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
Our understanding of what sin is, is not the same. Satan took the one verse that can be spun to say that God is doing something to us for our actions. The verse the wages of sin is death. The reason for the death is because of the consequence of our actions and not a loving God killing his children.

JEREMIAH 9 : 3 "They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not the truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me, declares the Lord."
JEREMIAH 9 : 5&6 "They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning. You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me, declares the Lord.
PSALM 78 : 32 "In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe."
JOB 23 ; 12 "But God charges no one with wrongdoing."
HEBREWS 4 : 2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith."
If you read Psalm 78, God kept doing loving things for them, but it never gave them faith that he would do the next thing. They kept doubting in a loving God=SIN as Psalm 78 says. Paul then addressed the Jews and said both the Jews and Gentiles were under sin. Neither trusted in loving gods. Both sacrificed to appease their gods.

ROMANS 3 : 9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one" WHAT DOES PAUL SAY THE MEANING OF RIGHTEOUS IS? "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. (all have gone after a pagan image of a god) "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips (lies of the serpent).

Satan has taken verse 23 of this chapter and made a whopper of a lie. Paul is saying sin is not knowing God, yet the Christian world has spun verse 23 to mean something altogether different.

ROMANS 3 : 23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all doubt how loving he really is. Instead the Christian world says: God can no way love us after we do an immoral act because he is perfect. Satan is brilliant!

PSALM 4 : 2 "How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?"

God is love. He would not have any of his creation to be lost. Jesus showed us that in Mark 8 : 18-21. He asked the disciples how many baskets of scraps they had picked up after he had fed thousands from a few loaves. WHY WERE THEY CARRYING BASKETS OF USELESS SCRAPS?????????? Jesus could create as much as was needed. The meal was late afternoon. The next meal would have been in the morning. There was NO PRESERVATIVES in the bread. They had NO PLASTIC BAGS OR EVEN PAPER BAGS. The scraps would have been hard and useless by morning. Don't you think they were wondering; why in the world are we carrying around these useless scraps?

God is a CREATOR, he destroys nothing. Paul in Romans said we had no excuse. No excuse to think God would allow anyone to die. He said we just had to look at what God had created. Everything in nature is a perfect cycle of giving, nothing is ever lost (the law of thermal dynamics).

All were under sin after Adam because he transferred his fear of God to his children and his children to their children. He ran and hid from a loving Father because Satan put in his mind that God was going to kill him. God had said eat off the tree and you'll surely die. It was not a threat, but a warning that using your freewill will result in your death. Not by God, but by the consequence of your actions. All mankind is still under this crazy idea that God is going to destroy some of us.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
Our understanding of what sin is, is not the same. Satan took the one verse that can be spun to say that God is doing something to us for our actions. The verse the wages of sin is death. The reason for the death is because of the consequence of our actions and not a loving God killing his children.

JEREMIAH 9 : 3 "They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not the truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me, declares the Lord."
JEREMIAH 9 : 5&6 "They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning. You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me, declares the Lord.
PSALM 78 : 32 "In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; in spite of his wonders, they did not believe."
JOB 23 ; 12 "But God charges no one with wrongdoing."
HEBREWS 4 : 2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith."
If you read Psalm 78, God kept doing loving things for them, but it never gave them faith that he would do the next thing. They kept doubting in a loving God=SIN as Psalm 78 says. Paul then addressed the Jews and said both the Jews and Gentiles were under sin. Neither trusted in loving gods. Both sacrificed to appease their gods.

ROMANS 3 : 9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are under sin. As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one" WHAT DOES PAUL SAY THE MEANING OF RIGHTEOUS IS? "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. (all have gone after a pagan image of a god) "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips (lies of the serpent).

Satan has taken verse 23 of this chapter and made a whopper of a lie. Paul is saying sin is not knowing God, yet the Christian world has spun verse 23 to mean something altogether different.

ROMANS 3 : 23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all doubt how loving he really is. Instead the Christian world says: God can no way love us after we do an immoral act because he is perfect. Satan is brilliant!

PSALM 4 : 2 "How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?"

God is love. He would not have any of his creation to be lost. Jesus showed us that in Mark 8 : 18-21. He asked the disciples how many baskets of scraps they had picked up after he had fed thousands from a few loaves. WHY WERE THEY CARRYING BASKETS OF USELESS SCRAPS?????????? Jesus could create as much as was needed. The meal was late afternoon. The next meal would have been in the morning. There was NO PRESERVATIVES in the bread. They had NO PLASTIC BAGS OR EVEN PAPER BAGS. The scraps would have been hard and useless by morning. Don't you think they were wondering; why in the world are we carrying around these useless scraps?
(
God is a CREATOR, he destroys nothing. Paul in Romans said we had no excuse. No excuse to think God would allow anyone to die. He said we just had to look at what God had created. Everything in nature is a perfect cycle of giving, nothing is ever lost (the law of thermal dynamics).

All were under sin after Adam because he transferred his fear of God to his children and his children to their children. He ran and hid from a loving Father because Satan put in his mind that God was going to kill him. God had said eat off the tree and you'll surely die. It was not a threat, but a warning that using your freewill will result in your death. Not by God, but by the consequence of your actions. All mankind is still under this crazy idea that God is going to destroy some of us.

Shalom Ron, yes, we do have different views of what "sin" is, and the destruction caused by it. Do you not believe that everyone will receive according to their works (Psalms 62:12, Isaiah 3:11, Jeremiah 17:10, Jeremiah 32:19, Ezekiel 7:27, Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, Revelation 22:12-15), those who do good, life and immortality, and those who do evil, indignation and wrath (Romans 2:7-8). For as you said, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and sin IS the transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4), and Elohim gave to Torah to INCREASE the transgression. Why is this so hard to believe? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIIM!

If love is the fulfillment of the Torah, and it is, then it is impossible to honor ELOHIM and serve one's fellow man through engaging in sin which is anomia, that is, activity without the practice of love. Love commands that one does not bear false witness over against another, and love does command that we should not silently tolerate each other's sin:

Leviticus 19:17-18

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I, YAHWEH.

From the perspective of both my Brother, Ken Brown, and myself, you yourself are bearing false witness against our Brother, the Apostle Paul, as you attempt to teach others concerning Romans 5. I am not speaking of Romans 6 and 7 because I have not examined your teaching there as of yet. Even so, if we are certain that you have taught in error concerning Romans 5, that fact that you choose to excuse yourself from any further conversation with us does not mean that love requires me or Ken to refrain from teaching the truth concerning Romans 5.

When I write, I always give a salutation as I have above, and my Brother, Ken, generally does the same or he will provide a quote to show to whom his post is directed. If we direct our comments to someone beside you yourself on issues that relate to Paul, do you really imagine that we are actually writing to you? And do you really expect that we will remain silent with others concerning any issue that we have discussed previously with you? If it was important enough to discuss with you, then it is likewise important enough to discuss with others.

You have control over what you do and say, and we likewise have control over what we do and say, that is, if we have learned in climbing the Mountain to fulfill our word.

Mountain Climber, do you believe that it is important for you to keep your expressed word to others?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

Why then do you violate the very scriptures you quote just to be able to say this to me?

It is because you don't see anything wrong with doing exactly what I did.

You called me names, quote, "you yourself are bearing false witness ...".

You begin by calling me a sinner and then you proceed on like you are clairvoyant and accuse me of hate.

Those who think as you do will agree with you.

Who cares? Not me.

You are the one that needs to start caring about what you do, not me. I am not your keeper.

However, thank you for admitting that your attitude began in that you from the get-go thought the following:

Quote, "From the perspective of both my Brother, Ken Brown, and myself, you yourself are bearing false witness against our Brother, the Apostle Paul,"

That explains a lot.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken

It is so hard to believe because it does not reflect the character of one with agape love. Transgression of the law in not trusting in God. The laws are there to help you and not a way for God to have a reason to destroy you. You will definitely receive in according to your works. If you continue slandering God's character you'll receive your just reward. As John said, God does not have a dark side. God's wrath is allowing you to think what you wish of him. He gives his enemies the wine of the fury of his wrath

REVELATION 17 : 2 "inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
REVELATION 14 : 8 "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

Satan had the nations worshiping a false picture of God. The maddening wine of her adulteries. Mankind was supposed to be married to the groom. Being adulteries was forsaking the true picture of God. If you read carefully the first chapter of Romans you'll see that God's wrath is allowing you to do what you wish. God's laws are perfect. They are the perfect way for us to do things. Do it God's way it is godliness. Not doing it God's way is ungodliness. If God's way is the perfect way doing it the opposite means you'll have problems. Not from God, but from the consequence of your actions. Paul called it God's discipline. God disciplines us by letting us do it our way. Is there a better way to learn?

So in the end God gives us his wrath (letting us do what we wish) letting us drink the wine we wish. All mankind will have the opportunity to come into New Jerusalem to be saved. Unfortunately if you believe in this punishing God your pushing, you'll run in fear. God said he'll be a wall for the city. His appearance is that of a devouring fire. Would you walk into a wall of fire that will maybe be 1500 miles high? You've been told by religions that if your good you float into heaven. Everyone is going to be raised from their graves and be on the surface of the earth. Paul said if you were unwilling to accept his true character now that God would allow you to keep that thought in your mind

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken

It is so hard to believe because it does not reflect the character of one with agape love. Transgression of the law in not trusting in God. The laws are there to help you and not a way for God to have a reason to destroy you. You will definitely receive in according to your works. If you continue slandering God's character you'll receive your just reward. As John said, God does not have a dark side. God's wrath is allowing you to think what you wish of him. He gives his enemies the wine of the fury of his wrath

REVELATION 17 : 2 "inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
REVELATION 14 : 8 "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

Satan had the nations worshiping a false picture of God. The maddening wine of her adulteries. Mankind was supposed to be married to the groom. Being adulteries was forsaking the true picture of God. If you read carefully the first chapter of Romans you'll see that God's wrath is allowing you to do what you wish. God's laws are perfect. They are the perfect way for us to do things. Do it God's way it is godliness. Not doing it God's way is ungodliness. If God's way is the perfect way doing it the opposite means you'll have problems. Not from God, but from the consequence of your actions. Paul called it God's discipline. God disciplines us by letting us do it our way. Is there a better way to learn?

So in the end God gives us his wrath (letting us do what we wish) letting us drink the wine we wish. All mankind will have the opportunity to come into New Jerusalem to be saved. Unfortunately if you believe in this punishing God your pushing, you'll run in fear. God said he'll be a wall for the city. His appearance is that of a devouring fire. Would you walk into a wall of fire that will maybe be 1500 miles high? You've been told by religions that if your good you float into heaven. Everyone is going to be raised from their graves and be on the surface of the earth. Paul said if you were unwilling to accept his true character now that God would allow you to keep that thought in your mind

Shalom Ron, if you truly believe "God's laws are perfect," are there any you would not love to keep? It says that IF you Love Him, you will keep His commandments (Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 5:10, Deuteronomy 7:9, Deuteronomy 11:1, Deuteronomy 11:13-15, Deuteronomy 30:16, Joshua 22:5, Daniel 9:4-5, John 14:15, John 14:21, Romans 13:9-10, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John 1:6). What kind of LOVE do you have for Him, is it Agape? Do you remember His Sabbath Day to keep it holy (Isaiah 56:4-7, Ezekiel 20:12-13, Ezekiel 20:19-21, Ezekiel 44:24)? Do you TRUST in "God" enough to obey his commandments? What are we to do? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ron Hackel]

When did I ever say I didn't keep the Sabbath? Unlike most I keep not as a legalistic requirement. God gave us the Sabbath so we could trust in him. He said to keep the Sabbath year which no one has done. If some people would have the entire world would now be believing in God. That is the reason for the 1000 year rest that no one seems to realize.

 

[Ron Hackel]

No human has agape love. Jesus made that clear when he asked Peter if he loved him. The first two times the word was agape. Jesus was saying we weren't capable of that. It is the reason Peter failed in his assertions that he would even die for Jesus. The third time Jesus asked he used the word caritos. It is the love we can feel.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

No human has agape love. Jesus made that clear when he asked Peter if he loved him. The first two times the word was agape. Jesus was saying we weren't capable of that. It is the reason Peter failed in his assertions that he would even die for Jesus. The third time Jesus asked he used the word caritos. It is the love we can feel.

That does sure seem to be the case, Ron.

I have absolutely no doubt that I need to work a great deal more on improving in that area.

I grew up around people that spoke their minds and if I didn't like it they would tell me what a xxxxx I was. And so I got used to it, accepting that they did not mean that they loved me any the less by it but in fact the opposite. They cared to make me tough enough to take a bit of guff from others.

That is what concerns me with the way I see love being policed by so many rather than just applied. I don't think we are meant to be the love police.

I look at the world and see that even non-believers can and do befriend each other with nice words though just as with those who say they believe in God some let love cover the rough edges of others and some wish to challenge every word that they feel is said against them, doing so with no real evidence that it wasn't simply more in the way that they took what was said than in what was said.

I think we see this difference in individuals in Romans chapter 14. If you feel it is a sin then for you it is a sin. But words are just words until those words wish for something bad to others.

When Jesus said that every empty or useless word would be called into judgment I don't think he meant in such a petty way as we often tend to make it out to be,

 

[Ken Brown]

When did I ever say I didn't keep the Sabbath? Unlike most I keep not as a legalistic requirement. God gave us the Sabbath so we could trust in him. He said to keep the Sabbath year which no one has done. If some people would have the entire world would now be believing in God. That is the reason for the 1000 year rest that no one seems to realize.

Shalom Ron, maybe I'm a little confused with your beliefs. So you do not believe in physically resting from your labors and having a holy convocation, as that would be too legalistic for you? How is it that you keep the Sabbath? I guess that goes along with your belief that the "satan-god" from the OT gave the Jews rules and regulations of the Sabbath that were too legalistic to live by:

Ron in Post #:437

The pattern continued until God finally relented and gave them the god they seemed to expect. If they didn't believe in a loving God he tested, if they'd believe in a pagan type god. And the answer was yes. He then gave them all the rules and regulations they were to follow..

EZEKIEL 20 : 25 "I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by."

Why would someone that loved you do this, unless this is what you seemed to want?

I supposed your feelings on this would agree with Isaiah 1:12-14?

And what did you mean here: "If some people would have the entire world would now be believing in God." What does having the entire world have to do with "would now be believing in God?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

No human has agape love. Jesus made that clear when he asked Peter if he loved him. The first two times the word was agape. Jesus was saying we weren't capable of that. It is the reason Peter failed in his assertions that he would even die for Jesus. The third time Jesus asked he used the word caritos. It is the love we can feel.

Shalom Ron, how do you understand this command?

Jn 13:34-35

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye agape one another; as I have agaped you, that ye also agape one another.

35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have agape one to another.

Is this a command that "no human" can keep? And will there be NONE who agape one another showing to ALL they are His Disciples? Are you sure you know what you are saying, and will you ever agape Him and keep this commandment? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!

You wrote to me:

"I am not your keeper."

According to the Torah of YAHWEH which I quoted to you, you are required to be my keeper, that is, if you in reality do love me and do not hate me. YAHWEH ELOHIM is love, and, therefore, HIS Torah is an expression of HIS love. As such, HIS Torah is good and right as YAHWEH is good and right. This good and right Torah commands you and me to do this:

Leviticus 19:17

17 .........: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

And this good and right commandment makes you my keeper and makes me your keeper, that is, if in reality we do love one another. Of course, this commandment of the Torah is best keep as Yahushua has instructed us to first privately rebuke each other (see Matthew 18:15) before we engage in a public rebuke. Do you desire that I first privately explain to you exactly how you have borne false witness against the Apostle Paul before I do so publicly?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
The conversation between Peter and Jesus was before Pentecost. They received the Spirit and then were able to have agape love. Scripture says the next time this is to happen is just before the end (Zech 14:5-8) You must have me confused with someone else. When did I say I didn't physically keep the Sabbath? I was hoping that I could show why having the knowledge of a loving God would be necessary at the second coming, but nobody really seems concerned. Since I'm just spinning my wheels, I'll just wish you all the best.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
The conversation between Peter and Jesus was before Pentecost. They received the Spirit and then were able to have agape love. Scripture says the next time this is to happen is just before the end (Zech 14:5-8) You must have me confused with someone else. When did I say I didn't physically keep the Sabbath? I was hoping that I could show why having the knowledge of a loving God would be necessary at the second coming, but nobody really seems concerned. Since I'm just spinning my wheels, I'll just wish you all the best.

Shalom Ron, thank you for wishing me the best, you too. As I told you before, if you would have listed Zechariah 14:5-8 with the full book name instead of Zech 14:5-8, it saves someone from having to look it up as it will work with a "mouse over," and have an imbedded link to the sites Bible program. Blessing in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi Mountain Climber,

Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIIM!

If love is the fulfillment of the Torah, and it is, then it is impossible to honor ELOHIM and serve one's fellow man through engaging in sin which is anomia, that is, activity without the practice of love. Love commands that one does not bear false witness over against another, and love does command that we should not silently tolerate each other's sin:

Leviticus 19:17-18

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I, YAHWEH.

From the perspective of both my Brother, Ken Brown, and myself, you yourself are bearing false witness against our Brother, the Apostle Paul, as you attempt to teach others concerning Romans 5. I am not speaking of Romans 6 and 7 because I have not examined your teaching there as of yet. Even so, if we are certain that you have taught in error concerning Romans 5, that fact that you choose to excuse yourself from any further conversation with us does not mean that love requires me or Ken to refrain from teaching the truth concerning Romans 5.

When I write, I always give a salutation as I have above, and my Brother, Ken, generally does the same or he will provide a quote to show to whom his post is directed. If we direct our comments to someone beside you yourself on issues that relate to Paul, do you really imagine that we are actually writing to you? And do you really expect that we will remain silent with others concerning any issue that we have discussed previously with you? If it was important enough to discuss with you, then it is likewise important enough to discuss with others.

You have control over what you do and say, and we likewise have control over what we do and say, that is, if we have learned in climbing the Mountain to fulfill our word.

Mountain Climber, do you believe that it is important for you to keep your expressed word to others?

Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,

Sincerely, Latuwr

OH, OK.

I see, you do see that Leviticus 19:17 is not saying that we are prohibited from rebuking others. I thought you were rebuking me for rebuking you. LOL.

However, Leviticus 19 is not authorizing anyone to be the love police. That would be counterproductive to our need as individuals to learn to let love cover over a multitude of sins.

I have a specific reason for making an analysis of the love I see in the different self-ordained and piously proclaimed religious groups. What I judge concerning them is for my benefit to assist me in choosing who I am commanded of God to have a sharing with and who I am commanded of God to have no sharing with. And by the way, merely speaking to someone is not having a sharing with them. Having a sharing with them implies adopting their ways and carrying out those ways in association with them.

I have given you ample chance to prove that I am doing as you claim, quote, "From the perspective of both my Brother, Ken Brown, and myself, you yourself are bearing false witness against our Brother, the Apostle Paul, as you attempt to teach others concerning Romans 5."

I don't really give a tinker's hoot if you are not commenting on Romans chapters 6 and 7. In my posts both prior and in between those posts I clearly laid out why I see you as full of dog dung in the way you interpret Romans 5 but you would rather take offense, claiming I am bearing false witness against Paul. That kind of an allegation needs proof to support it and from everything you have spoken to me it seems clear to me that you manufacture your proofs. Your proofs are no proof at all to me as i see how you twist what Paul said in order to derive your supposed proofs.

If that bothers you, that is too bad for you, as I see what i see and your complaining that I should see what you see is pointless.

Understand this: I have no respect for you or your rabbis as spiritual leaders. I view you as men who made themselves gods by taking it unlawfully to themselves to be the authoritative voice of interpretation of that Law.

So if you are going to win me it won't be through a game of hurt feelings based in thinking that I am disrespecting you or your rabbinical sources whom God has appointed to know that Law on behalf of all others. For I see that it was never true that the rabbis were appointed of God but they took that seat by pride and much twisting of that Old Law. Politics became the game to keep that seat, politics and illusion.

Have I said that clear enough for you that you can now stop whining and just accept that I do not agree that you are right as to the matter of Romans 5?

If you have better evidence concerning Romans 5 than what you have previously presented, then by all means present it. You do not need anyone's permission to do that.