The Law

[Ken Brown]

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. [22] But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. [23] Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [24] So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. [25] Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Shalom e.r.m., it has been years since I have had the pleasure to converse with you. How are you doing? Your quote of Galatians 3:21-25 is near and dear to me. Hope we can talk some more, and did you ever get a firm handle on 1 Corinthians 15:29? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew/Ken.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
First of all, you know that Paul used the word law in different settings. Those he was talking to knew what context he was using it in. It meant different things in the context he was using it. Being righteous could mean practicing the law of love or knowing the character of God. It is the same for the word sin. Doing things against the law of love is sin. But the ORIGINAL sin was not trusting in God. It is really what this is all about. You used 1 John 3:4 which describes not adhering to God's law of love. Which can be traced back to not trusting in God. Here are other definitions given in the Bible that you cannot make to fit the definition you're using.

PSALM 78:32 "In spite of all of this, they kept on sinning; in spite of all his wonders, they did not believe."
JEREMIAH 9:3 "They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; they are not valiant for the truth in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me."

Both these verses have sin as not knowing God's character.

PSALM 14:1 "the fool says in his heart, 'There is no God,' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one that does good."
PSALM 9:18 "The wicked return to the grave, all nations that forget God."

Since all Scripture must be fulfilled, when does this happen? It doesn't say goes to the grave, but returns. (The second death). And what sin did they commit? They forgot just how loving God is.

PSALM 4:4&5 "In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Offer right sacrifices and trust in the Lord."
PSALM 5:10 "Banish them for their many sins, for they have REBELLED against you."
HEBREWS 3:8-10 "do not harden your hearts as you did in the REBELLION, during the time of testing in the desert.........................Their hearts are always going astray, and THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS."

HEBREWS 4:2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those that heard did not combine it with faith." They didn't trust in a loving God.

DANIEL 9:24 "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to restrain transgression (Quit going back on the covenant) , to put an end to sin"

With your definition this would be impossible. But with the definition given of the Jews sin, it could be done. All they had to do was accept a God of love. They wanted a God that would destroy their enemies. All mankind are God's children. They were called God's chosen and Satan put in their minds that they were something special.

DEUTERONOMY 9:6 "Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff necked people."

They were CHOSEN to do a job!!!!!!!!

JEREMIAH 13:11 "For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel...Judah........to be my people for my renown and PRAISE and HONOR"

It's all about the war in heaven. Lucifer made accusations against God's character and we were created to counter those accusations. The next verse in Jeremiah says the Jews were supposed to have wineskins full of wine. They were supposed to be ready to tell anyone they came upon the true nature of God. If you take the time and write down all the verses that talk about wine, grapes, fruit, vines or firstfruits you'll see what these 6000 years have been all about. Wine is an analogy for God's character. Psalm 80 says the Jews were a faulty grapevine taken from Egypt. They never produced good grapes that would result in good wine. The true teachings about God's character. Psalm 80:16 says because it was a faulty vine it would be burned. Jesus referred to this in the parable of the tenant and in John 15:1 where he said he was the true vine. Daniel 9:27 has been totally screwed up by Evangelicals. It is not talking about some sinister character that is coming but was Jesus showing God's character and thus putting an end to sin.

Everything is about restoring God's name. Name in Hebrew means one's character. When Moses asked God's name what did he say? He said his character. Jesus said he came in the NAME of the Father. Hosea 6:7 said that Adam had broken the covenant as the Jews did. He ran and hid from a loving Father. He said he was naked although they had clothed themselves. The nakedness was symbolic. They feared a loving Father. Jesus brought the robe of righteousness. He showed a loving Father. Revelation 16:15 tells us not to be naked when he returns. DON'T BE AFRAID as Adam was. ISAIAH 2:19 says the wicked run and hide from God's glory. Psalm 53:4&5 says they have nothing to be afraid of.

I can write until I'm blue in the face, but as long as you don't believe in a God of agape love, Satan can supply you with verses that seem applicable as he did Jesus in the desert.

If you just depend on black and white Scripture you can defeat Satan.

ISAIAH 8:20, says God DOES NOTHING AGAINST THE LAW OF LOVE. And if you think the verse actually says something else Jesus gave its meaning in Matthew 7:12.

 

[Ron Hackel]

e.r.m.
John was the last living disciple when he wrote Revelation and he said that Satan WAS leading the world astray (rev 12:9). Satan has completely distorted what is happening as far as Scripture is concerned. He has twisted the meaning of several words to reflect an entirely different gospel than what is the truth.
Sin is not trusting in a loving God. Jesus came to do away with sin.

In Adam all sin. Adam passed his fear of God to his offspring. It doesn't make sense that because Adam did an immoral act that all mankind would have to pay for it.

Righteousness is trusting in a loving God. Jesus gave us the robe of righteousness by showing the true character of God. Jesus covered up our nakedness-false idea of God's character.

Nakedness is not trusting in a loving God. Adam ran from a loving God because he said he was naked, although they had covered themselves. The nakedness was symbolic. In Revelation 16:15 it says not to be naked at the second coming. Does that make sense with what the churches teach?

Justification means to set right. Jesus set our minds right about the character of God.

In Hebrews where it said the law never made anyone perfect. The same Greek word is used as mature in other Scripture. The sacrifices never made the Jews think they actually had a loving God because if they did something wrong they would have to redo the sacrifice. It said the law was added because of transgressions. God needed a way for the Jews to think God was okay with them because they refused to believe in a God of love. By sacrificing God was then okay with them. That is why Paul said in Romans that the Jews and Gentiles were both under sin. They both sacrificed to appease their gods. Go to Psalm 78 and it tells you about the Jews sin. Paul also said in Hebrews 4:2 that the Jews had been preached the gospel but they didn't understand this God of love. That is the gospel and not that Jesus paid some kind of penalty.

If you doubt this explain how Jesus sent the disciples preaching the gospel before the cross (Luke 9:6). If they knew that Jesus was supposed to die for our sins and raise from the dead, why were they all hiding in the upper room? The Jews were chosen to show the true character of God to the world, but they failed miserably (Jeremiah 13:11). Wine in the Bible is an analogy for the character of God. The Jews were God's vineyard (Isaiah 5). They were supposed to produce wine(true teachings of God's character). Psalm 80 said they were a grapevine taken from Egypt. Because it produced no good grapes it was thrown in the fire (Psalm 80:16). Verse 17 says that Jesus would come in their place to fulfill what the Jews were supposed to do. In John 15:1, Jesus said he was the true vine. If he paid a penalty for mankind, why did he say he was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel (Matt 15:24). He was sent because he would show God's character in their place. Read the parable of the tenant. The Prophets and Jesus came to help the Jews produce fruit. The good fruit would produce good wine. the knowledge of what our Father is like.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
The apostles, when describing Jesus, used the word agape to describe his love. The Greeks had several words for love. The word agape was a love humans couldn't attain. It was UNCONDITIONAL love.

The Mount Sinai god had the Ten Commandments. Do these things or I'll kill you-conditional love.

The Mount Sinai god said a person caught in adultery was to be stoned. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he did not condemn her-unconditional love.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:9 "If the ministry that condemns is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!"

The Ten Commandments are the perfect way for man to live. They are a reflection of the character of God(the laws without the punishment) (righteousness)

A loving father says, "Don't drink and drive or you'll kill yourself. A father of conditional love says, "Drink and drive and I'll kill you".

Jesus had two natures. The human nature said, "My God why have you forsaken me?" Not trusting in a loving Father. Jesus' Spiritual nature said, "Abba Father and died on the cross even though he could have come off under his own power.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
First of all, you know that Paul used the word law in different settings. Those he was talking to knew what context he was using it in. It meant different things in the context he was using it. Being righteous could mean practicing the law of love or knowing the character of God. It is the same for the word sin. Doing things against the law of love is sin. But the ORIGINAL sin was not trusting in God. It is really what this is all about. You used 1 John 3:4 which describes not adhering to God's law of love. Which can be traced back to not trusting in God. Here are other definitions given in the Bible that you cannot make to fit the definition you're using.

PSALM 78:32 "In spite of all of this, they kept on sinning; in spite of all his wonders, they did not believe."
JEREMIAH 9:3 "They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; they are not valiant for the truth in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me."

Both these verses have sin as not knowing God's character.

PSALM 14:1 "the fool says in his heart, 'There is no God,' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one that does good."
PSALM 9:18 "The wicked return to the grave, all nations that forget God."

Since all Scripture must be fulfilled, when does this happen? It doesn't say goes to the grave, but returns. (The second death). And what sin did they commit? They forgot just how loving God is.

PSALM 4:4&5 "In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Offer right sacrifices and trust in the Lord."
PSALM 5:10 "Banish them for their many sins, for they have REBELLED against you."
HEBREWS 3:8-10 "do not harden your hearts as you did in the REBELLION, during the time of testing in the desert.........................Their hearts are always going astray, and THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS."

HEBREWS 4:2 "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those that heard did not combine it with faith." They didn't trust in a loving God.

DANIEL 9:24 "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to restrain transgression (Quit going back on the covenant) , to put an end to sin"

With your definition this would be impossible. But with the definition given of the Jews sin, it could be done. All they had to do was accept a God of love. They wanted a God that would destroy their enemies. All mankind are God's children. They were called God's chosen and Satan put in their minds that they were something special.

DEUTERONOMY 9:6 "Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff necked people."

They were CHOSEN to do a job!!!!!!!!

JEREMIAH 13:11 "For as a belt is bound around a man's waist, so I bound the whole house of Israel...Judah........to be my people for my renown and PRAISE and HONOR"

It's all about the war in heaven. Lucifer made accusations against God's character and we were created to counter those accusations. The next verse in Jeremiah says the Jews were supposed to have wineskins full of wine. They were supposed to be ready to tell anyone they came upon the true nature of God. If you take the time and write down all the verses that talk about wine, grapes, fruit, vines or firstfruits you'll see what these 6000 years have been all about. Wine is an analogy for God's character. Psalm 80 says the Jews were a faulty grapevine taken from Egypt. They never produced good grapes that would result in good wine. The true teachings about God's character. Psalm 80:16 says because it was a faulty vine it would be burned. Jesus referred to this in the parable of the tenant and in John 15:1 where he said he was the true vine. Daniel 9:27 has been totally screwed up by Evangelicals. It is not talking about some sinister character that is coming but was Jesus showing God's character and thus putting an end to sin.

Everything is about restoring God's name. Name in Hebrew means one's character. When Moses asked God's name what did he say? He said his character. Jesus said he came in the NAME of the Father. Hosea 6:7 said that Adam had broken the covenant as the Jews did. He ran and hid from a loving Father. He said he was naked although they had clothed themselves. The nakedness was symbolic. They feared a loving Father. Jesus brought the robe of righteousness. He showed a loving Father. Revelation 16:15 tells us not to be naked when he returns. DON'T BE AFRAID as Adam was. ISAIAH 2:19 says the wicked run and hide from God's glory. Psalm 53:4&5 says they have nothing to be afraid of.

I can write until I'm blue in the face, but as long as you don't believe in a God of agape love, Satan can supply you with verses that seem applicable as he did Jesus in the desert.

If you just depend on black and white Scripture you can defeat Satan.

ISAIAH 8:20, says God DOES NOTHING AGAINST THE LAW OF LOVE. And if you think the verse actually says something else Jesus gave its meaning in Matthew 7:12.

Shalom Ron, thank you for your effort in helping me. Could you help by further explaining Paul here:

Rom 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love (agape) one another: for he that loveth (agape) another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love (agape) thy neighbour as thyself. (Leviticus 19:18)
10 Love (agape) worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (agape) [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Ron, do you feel Paul is thinking about a different Law here in Romans 13, and "any other commandment" found within that Law, than the Law he speaks about in Romans 2:13? Maybe you cannot help me understand Paul, but who knows, I'm surely willing to keep listening to your effort. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. In Isaiah 8:20 it speaks of the Law and the Testimony, and those who do not speak according to that Word, there is no light in them. Here again Ron, help me out, what is The Law, and what is The Testimony?

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
The apostles, when describing Jesus, used the word agape to describe his love. The Greeks had several words for love. The word agape was a love humans couldn't attain. It was UNCONDITIONAL love.

The Mount Sinai god had the Ten Commandments. Do these things or I'll kill you-conditional love.

The Mount Sinai god said a person caught in adultery was to be stoned. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he did not condemn her-unconditional love.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:9 "If the ministry that condemns is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!"

The Ten Commandments are the perfect way for man to live. They are a reflection of the character of God(the laws without the punishment) (righteousness)

A loving father says, "Don't drink and drive or you'll kill yourself. A father of conditional love says, "Drink and drive and I'll kill you".

Jesus had two natures. The human nature said, "My God why have you forsaken me?" Not trusting in a loving Father. Jesus' Spiritual nature said, "Abba Father and died on the cross even though he could have come off under his own power.

Shalom Ron, I was wondering if you could help me some more. Which nature of "Jesus" was speaking here:

Lk 19:27 But those Mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before Me.

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

P.S. Please consider Isaiah 11:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 in answering.

 

[metis]

Actually "agape" in Koine Greek implies love in action. IOW, one doesn't just have "agape", one lives "agape". This is sort of reflected in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats in Matthew 25, plus Paul's statement about which is more important: "faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is ____".

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
In Isaiah 11:4, God says, "He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked."

Jesus said the same thing in John:12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; THE VERY WORD WHICH I SPOKE (the sword that comes out of his mouth) will condemn him the last day."

On the last day you are risen from your grave. Everyone has been taught that they float into heaven. No one teaches that all are raised from the grave to make a choice(the battle of Armgedon) to either enter the city or run in fear. The city has this huge wall of fire around it that would resemble what people think hell looks like. You have these people who have been glorified (are shining like the brightness of the heavens-Dan 12:3) that are trying to tell you to come into the fire. You're not in heaven and the earth is convulsing all around you, what do you do? If you believe in a punishing god would you go into the flames?

Jesus said he was the Son of God and showed a God of love in complete opposition to the God the churches have been teaching. If you don't believe Jesus you will condemn yourself on the last day.

In describing the 144,000 that are sealed before God allows the earth to be destroyed, God says they don't defile themselves with women(symbolically the church).
In Isaiah a picture of the last days has seven women demanding their own food and clothes. Jesus brought the manna from heaven and the robe of righteousness. their idea must be in contrast to God's because it says in verse 4 that God will wash the filth later from the women of Zion. Seven women-all his churches.

The verse in Thes. is similar. The church I used to attend before they barred me from coming anymore teaches that God's glory somehow kills them. That their minds are in such opposition to God that it somehow explodes or something. It sounds good, but Satan had face to face conversations with God in Job(no explosion). So that pretty much nullifies that theory. Here is how they are killed by his splendor.

ISAIAH 2:19 "Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground FROM DREAD of the Lord and the SPLENDOR OF HIS MAJESTY, when he rises to shake the earth."
PSALM 53 4&5 "Will evildoers never learn.............There they were overwhelmed with dread, where there was nothing to dread."
Now if some would have been killed by God there was something to dread. They are killed but there was nothing to dread, Was it Roosevelt or Churchill that said we have nothing to fear, but fear it self.

Again it's nothing God is physically doing to anyone. It is the thoughts about God that Satan has put in the head of mankind. That is why Paul said:

HEBREWS 2 : 14 "so by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil" If everyone would have believed Jesus the war would have been over.

As long as Satan can have you perceive god as someone to fear he holds the power of death. Think about the scene in Zechariah where Satan is accusing Joshua of doing wrong and the angel of the Lord (Jesus) rebukes him for it. I know some have told me that Joshua was really a good man that Satan was trying to convince him in his mind that he was really no good. It's a good try by Satan to cover the truth, but a verse in Amos tells different. Joshua in the NIV(don't know what other versions say)is compared to a "burning stick snatched from the fire"(Zec 3:2) In Amos 4:11, God compares Sodom and Gomorrah to a burning stick snatched from the fire. Jesus is rebuking Satan for accusing anyone of doing wrong.

I don't quite know what metis was saying about the parable about the sheep and the goats, but it shows the same thing. God does not physically separate the sheep from the goats.

JOHN 10 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me."
At the second coming God knows which ones will have faith in him. He doesn't decide who he feels is good or bad, he simply knows who will come to him. God raise these from the grave first. They are preached the gospel by the 144,000 and go into the city. God then raises those he knows are going to reject the gospel. If you go to Rev 14:14-20 you have the same scene. You have two harvests one into the city and the other is destroyed outside the city (the earth blowing up, nothing that God is doing). As Paul said in Hebrews12:27, everything in this creation is going to blow up with only that not of this creation remaining (New Jerusalem which came out of heaven to rescue us).

JOHN 10:3 "The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice.
HOSEA 9 : 8 "The prophet, along with my God (Jesus), is the watchman over the people of God."

If you go back to the war in heaven, which was a war of accusations against God by Lucifer, it was fought by Michael the Archangel and his angels. Micheal means "one who is like God. Arch means chief and angel is from a Greek word meaning messenger. God's messengers were the Prophets. They brought their messages in Scripture given to them by God. They were the word of God. Satan was able to distort Scripture. Jesus was the word made flesh. You didn't have to guess what the Scripture was saying, you could see what God was like in the flesh.

So by the prophets and Jesus opening the gate (our minds) we were able to know God. The Sheep would come into the city and as Isaiah 2:19 says the goats would run away making the separation.

On your question about Isaiah 8:20. It says if it doesn't talk to this word there is no light in it. Remember Jesus said he brought the light-the truth. Jesus told us what the verse in Isaiah meant.

MATTHEW 7 : 12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets (Prophets brought the testimony), so Law and Testimony.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
In Isaiah 11:4, God says, "He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked."

Jesus said the same thing in John:12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; THE VERY WORD WHICH I SPOKE (the sword that comes out of his mouth) will condemn him the last day."

On the last day you are risen from your grave. Everyone has been taught that they float into heaven. No one teaches that all are raised from the grave to make a choice(the battle of Armgedon) to either enter the city or run in fear. The city has this huge wall of fire around it that would resemble what people think hell looks like. You have these people who have been glorified (are shining like the brightness of the heavens-Dan 12:3) that are trying to tell you to come into the fire. You're not in heaven and the earth is convulsing all around you, what do you do? If you believe in a punishing god would you go into the flames? Ron, I agree that for the majority of mankind, the Last Day (The 8th Great Day), everyone will come for out of their grave for Judgment, and for Judgment to occur, LIGHT must be used before anyone can freely choose (make a free will choice) as to whether or not they will come INTO the Light or forever remain in darkness. But Judgment FIRST begins with the House of Elohim (1 Peter 4:17), and that Judgment started some 2000 years ago with the First Church/Witness (The Apostolic Church), and we are now entering into Judgment for the Second Church/Witness, so that the One True Gospel can again be testified to by The Second Witness. So OUR time of Judgment is NOW to see how we will CHOOSE, whether Light and Life or Darkness and Evil, and IF we Hear His Word, and Believe on Him that Sent Yeshua, there will not be any condemnation on the Last Day, but we will have passed from Death unto Life (John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).

Jesus said he was the Son of God and showed a God of love in complete opposition to the God the churches have been teaching. If you don't believe Jesus you will condemn yourself on the last day.

In describing the 144,000 that are sealed before God allows the earth to be destroyed, God says they don't defile themselves with women(symbolically the church).
In Isaiah a picture of the last days has seven women demanding their own food and clothes. Jesus brought the manna from heaven and the robe of righteousness. their idea must be in contrast to God's because it says in verse 4 that God will wash the filth later from the women of Zion. Seven women-all his churches.

The verse in Thes. is similar. The church I used to attend before they barred me from coming anymore teaches that God's glory somehow kills them. That their minds are in such opposition to God that it somehow explodes or something. It sounds good, but Satan had face to face conversations with God in Job(no explosion). So that pretty much nullifies that theory. Here is how they are killed by his splendor.

ISAIAH 2:19 "Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground FROM DREAD of the Lord and the SPLENDOR OF HIS MAJESTY, when he rises to shake the earth."
PSALM 53 4&5 "Will evildoers never learn.............There they were overwhelmed with dread, where there was nothing to dread."
Now if some would have been killed by God there was something to dread. They are killed but there was nothing to dread, Was it Roosevelt or Churchill that said we have nothing to fear, but fear it self. (Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:4-5, Hebrews 10:28-31)

Again it's nothing God is physically doing to anyone. It is the thoughts about God that Satan has put in the head of mankind. That is why Paul said:

HEBREWS 2 : 14 "so by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil" If everyone would have believed Jesus the war would have been over. Please Ron, explain to me how His death destroys him who holds the power of death.

As long as Satan can have you perceive god as someone to fear he holds the power of death. Think about the scene in Zechariah where Satan is accusing Joshua of doing wrong and the angel of the Lord (Jesus) rebukes him for it. I know some have told me that Joshua was really a good man that Satan was trying to convince him in his mind that he was really no good. It's a good try by Satan to cover the truth, but a verse in Amos tells different. Joshua in the NIV(don't know what other versions say)is compared to a "burning stick snatched from the fire"(Zec 3:2) In Amos 4:11, God compares Sodom and Gomorrah to a burning stick snatched from the fire. Jesus is rebuking Satan for accusing anyone of doing wrong.

I don't quite know what metis was saying about the parable about the sheep and the goats, but it shows the same thing. God does not physically separate the sheep from the goats.

JOHN 10 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me."
At the second coming God knows which ones will have faith in him. He doesn't decide who he feels is good or bad, he simply knows who will come to him. God raise these from the grave first. They are preached the gospel by the 144,000 and go into the city. God then raises those he knows are going to reject the gospel. If you go to Rev 14:14-20 you have the same scene. You have two harvests one into the city and the other is destroyed outside the city (the earth blowing up, nothing that God is doing). As Paul said in Hebrews12:27, everything in this creation is going to blow up with only that not of this creation remaining (New Jerusalem which came out of heaven to rescue us).

JOHN 10:3 "The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice.
HOSEA 9 : 8 "The prophet, along with my God (Jesus), is the watchman over the people of God."

If you go back to the war in heaven, which was a war of accusations against God by Lucifer, it was fought by Michael the Archangel and his angels. Micheal means "one who is like God. Arch means chief and angel is from a Greek word meaning messenger. God's messengers were the Prophets. They brought their messages in Scripture given to them by God. They were the word of God. Satan was able to distort Scripture. Jesus was the word made flesh. You didn't have to guess what the Scripture was saying, you could see what God was like in the flesh.

So by the prophets and Jesus opening the gate (our minds) we were able to know God. The Sheep would come into the city and as Isaiah 2:19 says the goats would run away making the separation.

On your question about Isaiah 8:20. It says if it doesn't talk to this word there is no light in it. Remember Jesus said he brought the light-the truth. Jesus told us what the verse in Isaiah meant.

MATTHEW 7 : 12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets (Prophets brought the testimony), so Law and Testimony.

Shalom Ron, thank you again for the extensive reply. We have believed for a long time now that a choice or decision must be made by those who will come forth out of their graves on the Last Day, and this will finalize their Judgment as to whether they have Life or whether they have Death.

Concerning Light and Truth, please consider these verses (Proverbs 6:23, Psalms 119:142, Malachi 2:6) as they show Elohim's Torah as Light and Truth.

Now, you say The Testimony was brought by the Prophets...was not The Testimony in the Ark of The Covenant (Exodus 25:16, Exodus 25:21-22, Exodus 26:33-34, Exodus 30:6, Exodus 30:26), and was not also the Ark called the Ark of The Testimony? And was not the Two Tablets of The Testimony placed in the Ark (Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:15, Hebrews 9:4). And was not The Testimony which was written on the Two Tablets of Stone, The Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13)? And was not also This Testimony from the Mouth of Elohim (Deuteronomy 5:22)? So would you not agree that The Testimony is the Ten Commandments spoken directly from Elohim's Mouth and then Written on the Two Tablets of Stone? Yes, no, maybe? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ken Brown]

Actually "agape" in Koine Greek implies love in action. IOW, one doesn't just have "agape", one lives "agape". This is sort of reflected in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats in Matthew 25, plus Paul's statement about which is more important: "faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is ____".

Shalom metis, I can agree with you, especially how the "sheep" were LIVING Love in action, it was sort of like second nature to them. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
What do you call what the Prophets wrote if not testimony from God? It says to the law and to the testimony. If the testimony to you is the Ten Commandments, what is the law? And when Jesus said do on to others as you'd want them to do on to you, for this sums up the law and the Prophets, what is meant by that?

You said you believe those coming forth from the grave are making a decision. What kind of decision?

Since Jesus said he brought the light, how does that relate to the Torah?

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
I've written so much on this thread, that I couldn't say without looking back if I'm not repeating myself. With that said, it is obvious neither of us is going to budge from our stances. Since there are a multitude of signs coming to fruition on the 28th, lets just hope that the end is almost here.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
The verse in Luke 19:27 was a parable as you know. Just like the parable about Lazarus doesn't mean there is a place of eternal torment, I can at least say that nothing in what Jesus showed in his life would give me the idea that Jesus would kill anyone. Those that do not want the loving God, do die in front of Jesus though. They are brought before Jesus at the second coming and do die. I have tried to explain your verses in how they would relate to my understanding of the gospel. Do you think you've done the same with the verses I presented?

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
The verse in Luke 19:27 was a parable as you know. Just like the parable about Lazarus doesn't mean there is a place of eternal torment, I can at least say that nothing in what Jesus showed in his life would give me the idea that Jesus would kill anyone. Those that do not want the loving God, do die in front of Jesus though. They are brought before Jesus at the second coming and do die. I have tried to explain your verses in how they would relate to my understanding of the gospel. Do you think you've done the same with the verses I presented?

Shalom Ron, I am very selective as to what I hone in on with your explanations. It seems the more I address each post, you desire to depart, so I only pick and choose very obvious errors in your thinking. That does not mean that everything you say is incorrect, but your bottom line explanation of the Gospel is, and that is why I try to uphold The Law and The Testimony as a Light and a Lamp.

Most, like you, do not understand Paul. You think he is teaching AGAINST The Law (The Torah) and The Testimony (The 10 Commandments-Exodus 34:27-28), when in fact Paul is presenting The Law and The Testimony just like The Messiah...In a NEW Light, that was NOT according to the Literal meaning, but rather according to the Spiritual meaning of The Law and The Testimony. Paul stated that The Law IS Spiritual (Romans 7:14), and most do not comprehend that reality. When Yeshua asked about what was "said" of old...(From the MOUTH of Elohim) "Do not murder," He then SAYS something NEW on that Testimony which shows the Spiritual side of that command..."Do not even be angry without a cause, otherwise you will be in danger of the judgment"(Matthew 5:21-22). This NEW Light supersedes the old, and those who walk according to this NEW way of fulfilling The Law and The Testimony, will not be condemned (Romans 8:1-4).

Where most who read Paul fall into confusion and error is when they start to look at the sacrifices. The Jew of Paul's day could not fathom how a "man" could be viewed as a fulfillment of an animal sacrifice, but when you start to understand The Law is Spiritual, then you can have those understandings "opened" to you (Luke 24:25-27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:44-48). Yeshua predicted what would happen to Him on many occasions, but the understanding of those things were "hidden" to His Disciples (Luke 18:31-34) UNTIL after it happened. And for the most part, this understanding was hidden from the Jew, but that is going to change, as the Jew in our time frame will be the bulk of the True Believers in the One True Gospel about Yeshua.

You see Ron, the Truth concerning the One True Gospel is that ALL sinners have sacrificed their sin offering, just by being their sinful selves, and when this Truth is "opened" to you, it is your obligation to STOP sinning from your heart, and be TURNED from your iniquities through the BLESSING of coming to this Knowledge of KNOWING what your sin did...caused Yeshua to suffer so when YOU, along with everyone else PIERCED Him on the Cross. That is the simplicity and POWER of the Cross to TURN you from your sin, and in the process, you receive a FREE Gift, Elohim's Grace, which is the Spiritual Fulfillment of The Law concerning what you are required to do for Sacrifice. You accomplished the Just requirement of the Torah by YOUR Sacrifice of Yeshua as YOUR sin offering (Romans 8:1-4). Is this something you can acknowledge and confess? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
Am I reading you right? You're saying that a sacrifice had to be made to fulfill some kind of legal requirement of the law? It always seems strange that the law seems to be a separate entity, almost a fourth person in the Godhead. The law has to be satisfied. That of course can't be true. If there is such a law that must be satisfied, it was created by God. What exactly does God get from the sacrifice? Did he see his Son being tortured and say, "Now everything seems good in the world. I have no idea what this sacrifice is supposed to be doing.

You said you're supposed to see your obligation to quit sinning. How do you exactly know what sin and not sin is? As I asked in my one post, is it a sin to drive a car? Is it a sin to eat animals? Is it a sin to stop someone who is fighting with someone else? Is it a sin to not love a Creator that would kill your brothers and sisters? Should the Germans have loved Hitler when he was killing all the Jews? How does your picture of God differ from Hitler. He was eliminating people because in his mind they were inferior. Isn't this the mindset of your god? He is simply ridding the universe of people that wont conform.

Has anybody gotten to this stage that you're describing? Those that don't are eliminated??????????????? And if they are, your vision of God has him saying love me or I'll kill you. If your God sees someone that won't obey his commandment not to kill, he kills him. How does the law get satisfied then, or is God exempt from the law?

The God you're describing seems legalistic, vindictive and not at all loving.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
Am I reading you right? You're saying that a sacrifice had to be made to fulfill some kind of legal requirement of the law? It always seems strange that the law seems to be a separate entity, almost a fourth person in the Godhead. The law has to be satisfied. That of course can't be true. If there is such a law that must be satisfied, it was created by God. What exactly does God get from the sacrifice? Did he see his Son being tortured and say, "Now everything seems good in the world. I have no idea what this sacrifice is supposed to be doing.

You said you're supposed to see your obligation to quit sinning. How do you exactly know what sin and not sin is? As I asked in my one post, is it a sin to drive a car? Is it a sin to eat animals? Is it a sin to stop someone who is fighting with someone else? Is it a sin to not love a Creator that would kill your brothers and sisters? Should the Germans have loved Hitler when he was killing all the Jews? How does your picture of God differ from Hitler. He was eliminating people because in his mind they were inferior. Isn't this the mindset of your god? He is simply ridding the universe of people that wont conform.

Has anybody gotten to this stage that you're describing? Those that don't are eliminated??????????????? And if they are, your vision of God has him saying love me or I'll kill you. If your God sees someone that won't obey his commandment not to kill, he kills him. How does the law get satisfied then, or is God exempt from the law?

The God you're describing seems legalistic, vindictive and not at all loving.

Shalom Ron, traditional christianity has totally misconstrued the purpose of sacrifice to where they think that "God's" justice requires a "perfect" substitute to take their place, and die in their stead, so their "God" can forgive them. That is not at all the purpose of sacrifice, but traditional christianity followed in the error of Judaism, as they also looked at the sacrifice as a means to appease an angry "G-d". The Prophets were sent by Elohim to tell them their sacrifice was meaningless, as He desires Knowledge of Him more than burnt offerings, and a broken heart/contrite spirit more than sacrifice. There is really nothing that we can offer Him but to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly (Micah 6:6-8).

So what is the purpose of sacrifice? It is there to TEACH us the results or consequence of our sin. And we are to understand that we are JOINED with the sacrifice and whatever caused us to perform the offering (our sin), that sin is to die when the sacrifice or offering dies. Do you not believe Paul where he says when Messiah died, ALL died? Most do not realized their death in Messiah, but those who do, BURY their dead bodies in Baptism as the Law of Moses required, and then they rise up into a NEW Life, not their own, but IN Messiah, as He is the ONLY one Living...everyone else is dead. This life is a life based upon Faith. Do you disagree with this? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Ken
This will be my last post since we are so far apart and both feel strongly in our beliefs. We all had to be born again. The old man dies and we are reborn in our thoughts of what God's character is. Jesus made an atonement. He brought us back to "at one" in thought with God's. The Most Holy place was God's mind and the holy place was ours'. There was a heavy curtain separating the two rooms. The curtain was embroidered with angels (fallen angels). Satan's lies about God's character kept us from knowing the true character of God. To think that God would wish any kind of sacrifice seems absurd to me. As you can see we are separated by an impassable chasm. Hopefully the 28th will be the start of endtime events.

 

[Ken Brown]

Ken
This will be my last post since we are so far apart and both feel strongly in our beliefs. We all had to be born again. The old man dies and we are reborn in our thoughts of what God's character is. Jesus made an atonement. He brought us back to "at one" in thought with God's. The Most Holy place was God's mind and the holy place was ours'. There was a heavy curtain separating the two rooms. The curtain was embroidered with angels (fallen angels). Satan's lies about God's character kept us from knowing the true character of God. To think that God would wish any kind of sacrifice seems absurd to me. As you can see we are separated by an impassable chasm. Hopefully the 28th will be the start of endtime events.

Shalom Ron, sorry to see you depart again. I guess let's see what happens on the 28th, in the meantime, here are a few parting Scriptures: Leviticus 26:7-8, Deuteronomy 28:7, 1 Timothy 6:18, 1 Peter 5:2, 1 Peter 3:15

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

 

[Ken Brown]

Shalom Ron, sorry to see you depart again. I guess let's see what happens on the 28th, in the meantime, here are a few parting Scriptures: Leviticus 26:7-8, Deuteronomy 28:7, 1 Timothy 6:18, 1 Peter 5:2, 1 Peter 3:15

Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew

Shalom Ron, was the 28th the beginning of the endtime events, and if so, how so? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[KBC1963]

I find the arguments about the "law" to be in a bit of error in this thread. There were 2 laws given, one by God and one by Moses. Look at this reference;

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/different_laws.html

Notice these points especially;
Deuteronomy 4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."

Deuteronomy 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it."

The mosaic laws contained in statutes and judgments is what passed away and it is why Jesus was able to definitively answer this question the way he did, Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Matt 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

Now notice the comment Jesus makes in the writing of Mark;

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32And the scribe said to him, Well, Master, you have said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God.

Apparently the 10 commandments when understood and applied properly brings one closer to the kingdom. Now granted Jesus didn't name all 10 of them here but, he wasn't asked to name them all he was asked to name which was the first or most important. He chose the 2 that all the other 8 hang from.

Realistically, does anyone here think they can continuously and knowingly break any of the 10 commandments and still believe that they will be forgiven and accepted by Christ? Note that this was written after Christ died;

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

How much of the above is covered by the 10 commandments?

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin is the transgression of Gods law

1 John 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If you believe the 10 commandments no longer applies then it is impossible to break the law and sin even if you murder every human on earth.