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The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
HA!!! That’s precisely your M.O.: You say so, therefore it must be so. Everything you’ve posted as “evidence” and “proof” is nothing more than your “interpretations” of texts, and your beliefs with regard to what authority the church has to make changes. None of this has any bearing on The Way Things Really Are.

Your welcome to prove it? I believe all you have done so far is to deny the scriptures shared in love as a help to you. You have been provided with God's Word which are not my words but God's Word, but you do not believe them. Your simply denying God's Word with your own words which are not God's but yours. I believe according to the scriptures that only God's Word is true my dear friend and we should believe and follow them over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4; MATTHEW 15:3-9. May you receive God's Word and be blessed, ignoring them do not make then disappear. In fact I believe you may even find yourself fighting against God whose very Words you deny. I share these words only in love and as a help to you. Ignoring God's Word does not make them disappear.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Your response...


JESUS says... JOHN 14:15 IF you love me keep my commandments.

Repentance is from sin (breaking God's commandments) because sin is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 7:7; ROMANS 3:20; 1 JOHN 3:4 and not believing and following God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. No one has God's Spirit if they reject God's Word because God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word *JOHN 6:63.



What you believe here only shows you are not hearing the scriptures shared with you as it is not what I believe whatsoever. As posted in the last post just to make it clear to you again I believe the scriptures teach that we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of faith and God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW what Gods Word says. Doing what God's Word says is the FRUIT of faith that works by a new heart that LOVES given in the new covenant promise in *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. This is God's work in us * PHILIPPIANS 2:13.

If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate law and love as it is the fruit of faith to God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed *ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16 and is why JESUS says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40.

.............

According to the scriptures I believe God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9) There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God? In times of ignorance God winks at but now, <when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

According to the scriptures, God is calling his people out from the fallen Church's where ever they may be to come out from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God back to whorship him in Spirit and in truth back to the pure Word of God

God's Sheep Hear His Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow *JOHN 10:26-27. My prayer is that we may all not be of those who do not hear and do not follow as JESUS will say in that day depart from me you who practice sin, I never knew you *MATTHEW 7:21-26.

If we continue in sin (breaking any one of Gods commandments) when we have been given a knowledge of the truth according to the scriptures, there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come because those doing so count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and reject the gift of God's dear son *ACTS 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-39; ROMANS 6:23

May you receive God's Word and be blessed.

I follow Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I do so because I love God. [I hope that's clear] Also, I love God because he loved me first!

Do I keep God's commandments?
As I walk by the Spirit of God, I believe I walk as He would have me walk. When I fall short, I am aware that my fellowship with my Lord, and God, suffers. I therefore seek always to abide in Christ and to do His will.

Where does my understanding of scripture differ from yours?
Well, I see your practice of Friday/Saturday rest as an obligation that comes from the law of Moses, and to live by grace, as Christians should be doing, is not the same as living by law.

Your response to this has consistently been to say that I am not keeping God's laws [Ten Commandments] but I believe that by walking by the Spirit of love I fulfil all the commandments in their moral capacity [in Spirit and truth].

How do I justify my position? Well, you might have noticed in the story of the rich young man [Matthew 19:16-22] that Jesus gave a list of commandments that were necessary to fulfil for the young man to inherit eternal life. Did Jesus include the commandment to keep the weekly sabbath? No.

What is noticeable about the teaching of Jesus is that he requires MORE than is required by the Ten Commandments. Jesus makes this clear in the teaching of Matthew 5. Here is one example.
'Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
'But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.'

Jesus wants us to live by His Spirit, which is a better covenant than the covenant of law.

I am learning to live by faith, and my works follow my faith. Works of faith are works that follow the Spirit of God. I cannot even call them my own, because when I do them I am doing my Father's will! In this sense, they are God's works.

Now, all along, I have been attempting to show you that the weekly sabbath was not kept by Abraham or any other person from Adam to Moses. From Adam to Moses people lived by faith (or lack of it), and only faith could please God. These people were not under the law, the Ten Commandments, or the whole law ['torah'] given to Israel. I know you disagree with this, but in doing so you also disagree with Paul who says the following:

Romans 5:13,14. '(For until the law ['nomos'/'torah'] sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.'

I hope you take time to absorb this scripture because it proves that there was no decalogue in force under Abraham. It shows that the fourth commandment was not in force between Adam and Moses. And since Genesis 2:2,3 is not a commandment, we can conclude that the fourth commandment was not followed until after Exodus 16:23. It was then a commandment to the nation of Israel.

This same scripture, Romans 5:13,14, demonstrates that Abraham lived by faith, and that, because of his faith, sin was 'not imputed' unto him. It follows, in the age of grace, that as we walk by faith we are not under the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:13. 'Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:'

If, as you claim, you live by faith, then you, too, should be free from a law that was directed specifically at the nation of Israel.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I follow Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I do so because I love God. [I hope that's clear] Also, I love God because he loved me first

According to the scriptures I believe no one loves God if they knowingly do not do what God's Word says *JOHN 14:15; JOHN 14:21; JOHN 14:24. If anyone does not follow God's Word through ignorance winks at and does not hold us accountable for sin until we have been given a knowledge of the truth. Once we have been given a knowledge of the truth God calls us to believe and follow it. *ACTS 17:30-31. If we reject God's Word and continue in sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come because we count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing HEBREWS 10:26-39 and the very word of God we reject will become our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48.
Do I keep God's commandments? As I walk by the Spirit of God, I believe I walk as He would have me walk. When I fall short, I am aware that my fellowship with my Lord, and God, suffers. I therefore seek always to abide in Christ and to do His will.
According to the scriptures I believe that no one has God's Spirit if they do not do what God's Word says or if they are knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 as God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God and works through God's Word not apart from God's Word *JOHN 6:63. Those who say that they believe and follow God's Word while knowingly breaking any one of God's commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 according to the scriptures are not telling the truth as it is written "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" 1 JOHN 2:3-4. According to the scriptures the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's Word *ROMANS 13:8-10 by faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; ROMANS 3:31 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10.

Hope this helps.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Where does my understanding of scripture differ from yours? Well, I see your practice of Friday/Saturday rest as an obligation that comes from the law of Moses, and to live by grace, as Christians should be doing, is not the same as living by law.

Let's start on a good foundation here. God's 10 commandments do not come from the laws of MOSES. They are not the law of MOSES they are God's LAW *NEHEMIAH 10:29 that MOSES had nothing to do with. God's 10 Commandments were the work of God alone and was written and spoken by God alone to his people *EXODUS 32:16; EXODUS 20:1-17.

GOD'S WORD ON THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD'S LAW AND THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT

A. GOD'S LAW (Ten Commandments)

1. Called the "TEN COMMANDMENTS" (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4)
2. Spoken by God himself to God's people (Exodus 20:1-19).
3. The Ten Commandments were the work of God alone (Exodus 32:16)
4. Written by God with his own finger (Exodus 32:16)
5. Written on two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13
6. Placed INSIDE the ARK OF THE COVENANT (Deuteronomy 10:5)
7. God gave it (Exodus 31:18)
8. Describes how to LOVE God and your fellow man (Matthew 22:36-40)
9. Laws to give a knowledge of SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; Psalms 119:172)
10. Only TEN COMMANDMENT (Deuteronomy 4:13)
11. Moral law towards God and man standard of right doing (Exodus 20:1-17)
12. Transgression of the Ten Commandments is sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20)
13. Ten Commandments are FOREVER (Psalms 111:7-8; Matthew 5:17-19; Luke 16:17)
14. Jesus came to magnify and make it honorable (Isaiah 42:21; Matthew 5:17-28)
15. God's LAW is PERFECT (Psalms 19:7; James 1:25)
16. God makes a distinction separating His LAW and the laws of Moses (2 Kings 21:8; Deut 10:5

................

B. THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE LAW FROM THE OLD COVENANT

1. Called the "BOOK OF THE COVENANT" (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 31:26; 29:21; 24:7 etc).
2. Spoken by Moses to God's people (Exodus 24:4-7)
3. The Book of the Covenant was the work of Moses (Deuteronomy 31:24)
4. Written by Moses (Deuteronomy 31:24)
5. Written in a book (Deuteronomy 31:24
6. Placed BESIDE THE ARK OF THE COVENANT (Deuteronomy 31:26)
7. Moses gave it (Deuteronomy 31:24-26)
8. Describes God's plan of salvation (Torah; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy)
9. Laws in ordinances for forgiveness of sin (Leviticus 16)
10. Many laws and ordinances (Civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical, sanitary and health, sacrificial)
11. Laws for remission of sin, civil order, health and hygiene and God plan of salvation (Torah)
12. Prescribes offerings for forgiveness of sin (Leviticus 16)
13. Not FOREVER. Is a SHADOW pointing to Christ and God's plan of salvation (Hebrews 7:12; Colossians 2:14; Galatians 3:19; )
14. Ended at the cross and fulfilled in Christ as our true sacrifice (Colossians 2:14)
15. Made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19)
16. God makes a distinction separating His LAW and the laws of Moses (2 Kings 21:8; Deut 31:26)

According to the scriptures God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS and if we knowingly break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11

Hope this is helpful
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Your response to this has consistently been to say that I am not keeping God's laws [Ten Commandments] but I believe that by walking by the Spirit of love I fulfil all the commandments in their moral capacity [in Spirit and truth].

I do not believe your statement here is biblical and consistent with the scriptures. Why? As posted a little earlier, according to the scriptures I believe that no one has God's Spirit if they do not do what God's Word says or if they are knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 as God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God and works through God's Word not apart from God's Word *JOHN 6:63. Those who say that they believe and follow God's Word while knowingly breaking any one of God's commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 according to the scriptures are not telling the truth as it is written "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" 1 JOHN 2:3-4. According to the scriptures the fruit of OBEDIENCE to God's Word *ROMANS 13:8-10 by faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; ROMANS 3:31 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Now in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth calls all men everywhere to repent and believe and follow his Word. I believe the scriptures teach that God's people are in every Church *JOHN 10:16 but that the Churchs have fallen away from God's Word and the hour has come and now it that God is calling his people out *REVELATION 18:1-5 from these fallen Churchs to whorship him in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who whoship him my whorship in in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23

Hope this helps..
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
How do I justify my position? Well, you might have noticed in the story of the rich young man [Matthew 19:16-22] that Jesus gave a list of commandments that were necessary to fulfil for the young man to inherit eternal life. Did Jesus include the commandment to keep the weekly sabbath? No.

Let's examine the detail...

MATTHEW 19:16-21
[16], And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: BUT IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He saith unto him, WHICH? JESUS SAID, THOU SHALT NOT MURDER, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, HONOR YOU MOTHER AND FATHER AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
[20], The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

[21], Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

<Jesus showed him that he may have fulfilled His duty of love to his neighbor but not to God breaking commandment 1 and 2 loving riches more than God>

The response from the rich young ruler was...

[22], But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

JESUS showed the rich young ruler that while he may have fulfilled his duty of Love to his neighbore he loved His riches more then God. He went away sorrowful because he was not prepared to give up his riches in order to follow God.

...................

CONCLUSION: JESUS in MATTHEW 19:16-22 is showing the rich young ruler that while he was keeping the commandments that sum up our duty of love towards our neighbore he was breaking those that define our love to God (Exodus 20:3) and put his riches before God. Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were used and known in the OLD Testament scripture to sum up our duty of LOVE to God and man in the 10 Commandments.... God's LAW (Ten commandments) is not separated from LOVE it demonstrates it. You cannot have LOVE without fulfilling God's Ten Commandments. [On these two Commandments of LOVE hang all the LAW and the prophets]. There are 10 commandments in God's law that define our duty of love to God and man. Your argument is like saying because the first four commandments of the 10 are not mentioned we are now free to have other God's, make and worship idols, use God's name in vain and break His Sabbath. Does that make any sense to you? There are 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of Good and evil; sin and righteousness in Gods' Word *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them like the rich young ruler we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:8-11 that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Hope this helps
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
What is noticeable about the teaching of Jesus is that he requires MORE than is required by the Ten Commandments. Jesus makes this clear in the teaching of Matthew 5. Here is one example. 'Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 'But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.'

Something we can agree on here. JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

Disobedience to God's LAW (10 Commandments) is the fruit that will keep us out of God's kingdom.

Hope this is helpful.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Jesus wants us to live by His Spirit, which is a better covenant than the covenant of law. I am learning to live by faith, and my works follow my faith. Works of faith are works that follow the Spirit of God. I cannot even call them my own, because when I do them I am doing my Father's will! In this sense, they are God's works.

JESUS says by their fruits you shall know them (if someone is from God or not from God) *MATTHEW 7:16-20. We are to examine ourselves through the scriptures to see if we are in the faith or not *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5. JESUS also says; "And this is the condemnation, that light (truth of God's Word) is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light (truth of God's Word), because their deeds were evil (sin). For every one that does evil hates the light (truth of God's Word), neither comes to the light (truth of God's Word), lest his deeds (sins) should be reproved. But he that does truth comes to the light (truth of God's Word), that his deeds (faith in God's Word) may be made manifest, that they are worked in God " *JOHN 3:19-21. What does this mean? Well it means many will not examine themselves or come to God's Word to see if they are in the faith or not because they love their sins more than God. According to the scriptures anyone that is knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 is committing sin *1 JOHN 3:4 and is not following God or walking in God's Spirit *1 JOHN 2:3-4; GALATIANS 5:16; 1 JOHN 3:6-10; MATTHEW 7:21-26.

There are 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of Good and evil; sin and righteousness in Gods' Word *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any one of them like the rich young ruler we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments *EXODUS 20:8-11 that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken.

Hope this is helpful.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Now, all along, I have been attempting to show you that the weekly sabbath was not kept by Abraham or any other person from Adam to Moses. From Adam to Moses people lived by faith (or lack of it), and only faith could please God. These people were not under the law, the Ten Commandments, or the whole law ['torah'] given to Israel. I know you disagree with this, but in doing so you also disagree with Paul who says the following

As posted and shown through the scriptures earlier in post # 509 linked and others these claims are not biblical and nonsense in my opinion. Your reponse was to simply ignore all the scriptures provided that prove why your claims are in error. Before the written Word of God there was the Spoken Word of God and God's people kept God's law and words by faith *GENESIS 26:5.

Hope this is helpful
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Romans 5:13,14. '(For until the law ['nomos'/'torah'] sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.'

I hope you take time to absorb this scripture because it proves that there was no decalogue in force under Abraham. It shows that the fourth commandment was not in force between Adam and Moses. And since Genesis 2:2,3 is not a commandment, we can conclude that the fourth commandment was not followed until after Exodus 16:23. It was then a commandment to the nation of Israel. This same scripture, Romans 5:13,14, demonstrates that Abraham lived by faith, and that, because of his faith, sin was 'not imputed' unto him. It follows, in the age of grace, that as we walk by faith we are not under the curse of the law.

ROMANS 5:13 is used by some to try and teach that sin was around when God's LAW was not present yet we have been able to show that God's LAW (TORAH) which includes a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is (10 Commandments) and the MOSAIC laws for remission of sin (SIN offerings) have been around since Adam and Eve. Let's now look at ROMANS 5:13..

...................

ROMANS 5:12-14 [12], [12], Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned: [13], For UNTIL the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [14], Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come in post # 509 linked.

Romans 5:12-14 is clearly teaching that sin and death was present, from Adam to Moses apart from the Law (Torah) and confirming that the written Law was not present until Moses.

The GREEK word UNTIL ἄχρι, ἄχρις; achri achris; akh'-ree, akh'-rece Akin to G206 (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to : - as far as, for, in (-to), till, (even, un-) to, until, while. Compare G3360.

So the meaning of the scripture is...

1. for while the law sin was in the world
2. for till the law sin was in the world
3. for untill the law sin was in the world

...................

Young's Literal Translation of the Greek ROMANS 5:13
for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but sin is not imputed were there is no law.

...................

This agrees with

ACTS 17 [30], And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent. The scripture is saying that if someone does not know something is sin and has no KNOWLEDGE of God's LAW he is not held accountable until he has been given a KNOWLEDGE of the truth.

The Book of Romans was written for gentile believers who had no knowledge of God's Laws or God's requirements or God's Word.

The Children of Israel in Egypt however had lost sight of God's LAW through 400 years of slavery to the Egyptians. Hence the LAW was given by God (10 Commandments) and Moses (book of the law) again.

...................

Some questions to think about...

If the interpretation of Romans 5:12-14 is that God's people before MOSES did not have God's TORAH then you will need to explain the following scriptures and questions that disagree with your interpretation of God's WORD...

Why was the world destroyed by a flood in the days of Noah as well as the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if God's LAW was not known? (you will need to reconcile Romans 5:13)

As well as you need to answer the question above and your need to reconcile Romans 5:13; the following scriptures also show that God's people before Moses have God's TORAH (commandments and laws for sin offerings).

GENESIS 26:5
Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong
LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; TORAH tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw' From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

The scripture says Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.

GENESIS 22:6-13
6, And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7, And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
13, And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns:and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Burnt offereings were made for atonement for sin *LEVITICUS 1:4. What is SIN according to the scriptures? Sin is disobedience to God's WORD and includes breaking God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). It is God's WORD and his LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN (Romans 3:20)

GENESIS 39:7-9 7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. 8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; 9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and SIN against God?

If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potiphar’s wife?


Bottom line.

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12).

If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if
we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Hope this is helpful
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:13. 'Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:' If, as you claim, you live by faith, then you, too, should be free from a law that was directed specifically at the nation of Israel.

The curse of the law is the penalty of God's Law which is death *ROMANS 6:23. GALATIANS 3:13 is not saying that there is no law but that those who believe and follow God's Word have atonement and forgiveness. God's LAW has the same role it always has and that is to give us the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant scriptures are all those who believe and follow God's Word *EPHESIANS 2:11-13; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13 If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27

According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11 and all those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of God's Grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; EXODUS 20:8-11. According to the scriptures no one is living by faith if they are knowingly breaking God's commandments neither do they love God or their fellow man *JAMES 2:18-26; HEBREWS 10:26-39; JOHN 14:15; JAMES 2:10-11.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Back to the OP.....

Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

A.
MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)

God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
According to the scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11 and all those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of God's Grace *HEBREWS 10:26-39. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; EXODUS 20:8-11. According to the scriptures no one is living by faith if they are knowingly breaking God's commandments neither do they love God or their fellow man *JAMES 2:18-26; HEBREWS 10:26-39; JOHN 14:15; JAMES 2:10-11.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

I have had to think long and hard about my response to all that you have written. What you write does not sit easily with my spirit, yet I realize that I am dealing with a carefully constructed doctrine that is taught throughout your denomination.

James 2:10-14. 'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.'

This passage of scripture from James 2 highlights a subtle distinction between 'whosoever shall keep the whole law' and 'they that shall be judged by the law of liberty'. The former 'shall have judgment without mercy' whilst the latter will find that 'mercy rejoiceth against judgment'.

To which of these two groups do you belong, I wonder?

In James 1:25 it says, 'But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.'

Here the law of liberty is called PERFECT, if the hearer be a doer also. But what is the law of liberty? This law is closely connected to the law referred to in James 2:8.

In James 2:8 it says, 'If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:'

Our freedom to love in Spirit and truth, and to live fearlessly, comes from Jesus Christ. Galatians 5:1.'Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.'

Whenever we have discussed faith, you have stated that you walk by faith. Yet, no sooner have you stated this, than you say that to walk by faith means to follow the Ten Commandments. These Ten Commandments are laid down in Exodus 20:1-17 and each contains a negative:
'no other gods before me'
'not make unto thee any graven image'
'not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;'
'thou shalt not do any work'
'that thy days may be long upon the land'
'shalt not kill'
'shalt not commit adultery'
'shalt not steal'
'shalt not bear false witness'
With every negative, or warning, comes the threat of punishment. This threat of punishment is a judgment, a curse, not a mercy. Hence we find, that death is nearly always the punishment for transgression of the Ten Commandments.
Here is the judgment against idolatry.
Deut. 17:6. 'At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.'

And the judgment for not keeping the weekly sabbath. [Exodus 31:15] 'Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.'

Deuteronomy 11:26-28. 'Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.'

These words help to clarify responsibility under the covenant of law, made between God and Israel. Under the law, there were to be blessings and curses. To break any commandment would result in a punishment.

In the present age of grace, we know that the curse of the law, the punishment for sin, was borne by Christ upon the cross.

Galatians 3:9-14. 'So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'

'The reconciliation of law with liberty, issuing in a service which is perfect freedom, is attained through the Spirit of Christ: 'the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ hath made me free' [Rom.8:2], the spirit of adoption superseding the spirit of bondage, that love may cast out fear. Law, then, is no longer a law under which, but a law by which we act, becoming a law of our spiritual nature.' [Dean Scott - Speaker's Commentary]

Smith Wigglesworth, whose writings never deviate from matters of faith, wrote:
'The Holy Ghost shows us that we must never look back to the law of sin and death from which we have been delivered. God has brought us into a new order of things, a life of love and liberty in Christ Jesus that is beyond all human comprehension. Many are brought into this new life through the power of the Spirit of God, and then, like the Galatians, who ran well at the beginning, they try to perfect themselves on the lines of legalism. They go back from the life in the Spirit to a life on natural lines. God is not pleased with this, for He has no place for the man who has lost the vision. The only thing to do is repent. Don't try to cover up anything. If you have been tripped up on any line, confess it out, and then look to God to bring you to a place of stability of faith where your whole walk will be in the Spirit.' [The Pentecostal Evangel, Nov.25,1922]

I can see blessing and benefit stem from an agreed day of rest each week, but the legal requirement to take a specific day, with the threat of punishment for non-compliance, is not what I understand as grace.

Christians choosing to assemble on Sunday, under no obligation or threat of punishment, was a practice that helped to differentiate between grace and law.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Christians choosing to assemble on Sunday, under no obligation or threat of punishment, was a practice that helped to differentiate between grace and law.
And to go along with what you well said, Jesus made it very clear that the Apostles could make decisions to guide the Church through the ages empowered by the Holy Spirit, the power of which they in turn gave to their appointees. This is made very clear in Acts and the epistles, whereas the Church leaders make some changes, such as the ending of the kosher laws for Gentile converts into the Church per Peter's vision.

And if these appointees could supposedly not make such changes, then those who actually believe that should either hand their Bibles over to those who can use them or throw them into the garbage because the NT was written decades after Jesus was crucified, plus even the entire canon was not selected until the 4th century as the vast majority of possible books were rejected over a process that took over a half a century.

And the "mark" of the early Church was not which books a local church may have had but instead was based on whether the leaders of one's church were linked back to the Twelve and, thus, to Jesus. This process was not only established by the Apostles but was also based on necessity since there were other groups with often significantly variant beliefs using different books that they claimed were the real books and that the books in the Bible we use were fraudulent-- ya know, "fake news". ;)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Q. WHAT DAY IS THE "LORD'S DAY" ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE?

A.
MATTHEW 12:8 [8], For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Which day is the Lord's Day? THE SABBATH DAY (MATTHEW 12:8; MARK 2:27-28)

God's WORD says that the SABBATH DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY!

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word.

It's the seventh day the earth goes round the sun. You work six days and rest on the seventh. Everything depends on the culture. It's not Gregorian, so...

I wonder if that's why we have Saturday and Sunday for weekends since no one can decide which day they should rest.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's the seventh day the earth goes round the sun. You work six days and rest on the seventh. Everything depends on the culture. It's not Gregorian, so...

I wonder if that's why we have Saturday and Sunday for weekends since no one can decide which day they should rest.
The irony with this is that Sunday is now the #1 day for shopping-- so much for a "day of rest". If my memory is correct, Saturday is #2.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The irony with this is that Sunday is now the #1 day for shopping-- so much for a "day of rest". If my memory is correct, Saturday is #2.

Pretty much. There's still a debate whether Monday should be the first day too. On Black Friday, I wonder what everyone would do on Saturday if they couldn't shop.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The irony with this is that Sunday is now the #1 day for shopping-- so much for a "day of rest". If my memory is correct, Saturday is #2.

Back when blue laws were fully in place the favorite stop after Mass was an historic street that featured Jewish bakeries and delis.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I have had to think long and hard about my response to all that you have written. What you write does not sit easily with my spirit, yet I realize that I am dealing with a carefully constructed doctrine that is taught throughout your denomination.

I guess sadly my posts have fallen on deaf ears to you my dear brother. Is there any reason you have ignored the many post and the scriptures in them that were provided earlier? Anyhow let's address this one in some detail as I only hope it may be in love and a help that you may receive it as they are Gods Word's not mine...

You may need to think a little harder my dear brother in my opinion as I did not get my understanding of the scriptures from a church denomination but through claiming Gods promises in JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; 1 JOHN 2:27; JOHN 7:17; JOHN 17:17 which of course are all conditional on JOHN 8:31-36.

What I write is only God's Word which points out the truth of Gods Word and shows that the majority of Christians are either knowingly or unknowingly following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. This is exactly what JESUS warned us not to do in MATTHEW 15:2-9 where he states those who do these things are not following God. According to the scriptures God's people are in every church who are living up to all the knowledge of the truth that God has revealed to them *JOHN 10:16.

The scriptures teach however that the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will be called out of these church's to woship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who whorship him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-23. God is calling his people out back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 18:1-5. Gods sheep will hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow.

James 2:10-14. 'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.' This passage of scripture from James 2 highlights a subtle distinction between 'whosoever shall keep the whole law' and 'they that shall be judged by the law of liberty'. The former 'shall have judgment without mercy' whilst the latter will find that 'mercy rejoiceth against judgment'. To which of these two groups do you belong, I wonder? In James 1:25 it says, 'But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.' Here the law of liberty is called PERFECT, if the hearer be a doer also. But what is the law of liberty? This law is closely connected to the law referred to in James 2:8.
In James 2:8 it says, 'If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:'

The law of liberty is LOVE it is referenced in context provided in v8

JAMES 2:8-12 [8], IF YOU FULFILL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, YOU DO WELL: [9], BUT IF YOU HAVE RESPECT TO PERSONS, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS.
[10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if you commit NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW. [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

All JAMES is doing here is referening the two great commandments of love to God on which all the law and the prophets hang and giving application of our duty of love to our neighbore showing that love to our fellow man is demonstrated by obedience to God's Law which is the very same teachings that JESUS provided here...

MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Paul also show the same connection as to how love is demonstrated by obedience to God's law through faith here...

ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

ROMANS 8:4 [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

GALATIANS 5:16 [16], This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Seems JESUS, JAMES and PAUL all agree that on these two great commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets. The law of liberty is LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW (10 commandments) in all those who believe and follow God's Word.

Our freedom to love in Spirit and truth, and to live fearlessly, comes from Jesus Christ. Galatians 5:1.'Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The yoke of bondage is SIN not God's LAW. The purpose of God's LAW (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25. The law of liberty (love) is the freedom of walking in God's Spirit which is the freedom of walking in the flesh and known SIN, to walk in newness of life given by a new heart to LOVE by faith *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4.

JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We are Abraham's descendants, and were never in BONDAGE to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN IS A SERVANT OF SIN. [35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever. [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE <from SIN> YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

ROMANS 8:4 [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

GALATIANS 5:16 [16], This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YOU SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH.

Whenever we have discussed faith, you have stated that you walk by faith. Yet, no sooner have you stated this, than you say that to walk by faith means to follow the Ten Commandments. These Ten Commandments are laid down in Exodus 20:1-17 and each contains a negative:
'no other gods before me'
'not make unto thee any graven image'
'not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;'
'thou shalt not do any work'
'that thy days may be long upon the land'
'shalt not kill'
'shalt not commit adultery'
'shalt not steal'
'shalt not bear false witness'

Well you quoted 9/10 commandment. You left out God's 4th commandment in EXODUS 20:8-11. Was there any reason for that? Let's get honest here brother can we? Let me ask you something. Tell me who has faith. If God asks us to do something who has faith and believe and follows God's Word; the person who hears, believes and follows what God says or the person who hears, believes and does not do what God says? Which one of these people has faith in God's Word?[/QUOTE]
 
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