"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

[Oeste]

According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments in 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and Gods law teaches us that if wer break anyone of Gods commandments we have sinned against God and stand before God guilty of sin and death (see Romans 3:19-20).

So where do you go from there?

You cannot possibly seek salvation by keeping commandments you have already broken. A broken commandment is not a kept commandment. Worse, there is no commandment that allows you to break other commandments, either once, or "once in a while". No matter what we tell ourselves, there is no free pass.

Indeed, it would be better for the tax collector who pleads mercy on his last day than the Pharisee who claims to have kept the commandments:

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’​

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13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’​

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14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”​

I am sure this Pharisee thought the tax collector "lawless" or worse, but this was not the view of God, it was simply the view of the tax collector. It's certainly not a view I want to have just before I come before His judgement seat, yet we have other Christians who call us "lawless".

Also, to be sure, the path you suggest is simply impossible, at least by scriptural standards:

"So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law." Galatians 3:11​

So once again, I am confronted with Adventists who claim I can be kept right by trying to keep the law, and scripture which tells me this path is impossible. So instead of covering myself with Sabbaths, I choose to cover myself with Jesus. Rather than obey the law, I simply obey him, and I keep his commandments rather than the law.

All in all, I believe he offers a much better and more attainable deal, especially since the law offers no salvation at all.

 

[Oeste]

All of Gods 10 commandments which also includes the Sabbath commandment are taught and repeated throughout the old and new testament scriptures by Jesus and the Apostles.

Well, that's not true at all. The Jewish Sabbath is not taught in the New Testament. Here's what scripture tells us about this Sabbath:

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." Deuteronomy 5:15​

The Jews were told to keep the Sabbath because they were brought out of Egypt. It's right there in the 10 commandments.

Do you see the word "Therefore*" ?

* כֵּ֗ן (ken)

It's an adverb means "upon the grounds of such conditions". It could be translated as "Thus". Our Lord God brought them out of captivity, but by His hand and not their own, which is why He commanded this Sabbath and the Sabbaths to come.

Were the gentiles slaves in Egypt? Were they brought out of Egypt? I don't think so. This Sabbath is for the Jews, not the gentiles. Remember, we need to keep all scripture in context. We can't pick, choose, ignore the parts we don't like, make up parts to "tie in" the parts we do like, nor make it conflict with other scripture. All of it should agree and be supportive, and when you add doctrinal theories, like making this verse applicable to Jew and Gentile alike, conflicts will emerge.

In fact Jesus taught in Matthew 24:20 and Mark 13:18 that Gods people would be still keeping the Sabbath well after the death and resurrection.

Yes, I believe we mentioned this to you before. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Remember, at this point, "God's people" is not just Israel.

You do err not knowing the scriptures following the teachings and traditions of men leading you into unbelief and sin.

I'm sure I do err. You just haven't show us scripturally where I erred on this particular topic, and I think we've all been extremely patient.

Hebrews 4:9 "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath." Ignoring Gods Word does not make them disappear. The words of God we choose to accept or reject become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48.

I know you are simply mirroring Adventist talking points, but I find this inapt, inapplicable, and inapposite.

Paul is talking about a rest (Sabbath) that comes on another day. A day that still "remains" at the time it was decreed.

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But before we get into Hebrews 4, let get the setup. We find this in the last few verses of the 3rd chapter:

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19)​

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So we find God was ANGRY with the Jews because of their rebellion! Are the Jews "at rest" with God? NO! They are at a state of unrest, not rest. He was angry at those who rebelled and this rebellion prevented Israel from entering a state of rest with God. They didn't believe the promise of God so how could they rest?

Now let's go back to chapter 4:

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience...​

QUESTION for @3rdAngel:

To whom was the Sabbath "first preached"? Was it Adam? It couldn't have been Adam because it state to those whom it was "first preached" DID NOT ENTER. On the other hand, Adam, when he was first created, was IMMEDIATELY at rest with God. His disobedience did not come until later.

If the Sabbath been initiated at the "time of creation", then it would have been "preached" or communicated to Adam. However, there would be no "first preached" if Adam is the only human in existence...there would have been no other person to preach to.

So the Sabbath was "first preached" to the Jews. How do we know this? Because you cannot show us a Sabbath in Genesis.

Also, the verse says "to whom it was first preached", This indicates it was preached to particular human group, person, or entity.

Let's continue our bible study:

7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:​

Who is the "He"? God of course. Who is He saying it to? David of course, not all mankind. Is He saying an existing day? No! He says a certain day, not an existing day.

Let's continue our bible study:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”​

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8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. ​

Bingo!

God instructed His people to practice the Sabbath while living in the Promised Land. If the rest of the Promise Land had been enough, then there would have been no need for David to speak of a future rest in the Psalms.

Now, having read these verses in context, we can see there remained a rest for people of God.

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.​

This is NOT a single day of rest he is referring to. The prior was the shadow, but at that day will be the realization. This is what Christ meant when he says "

"All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11: 27-28)

David in Psalms would not have had to speak of another day, and Jesus would not have needed to offer rest if the Jews (or mankind) had rest in the Sabbath.

We keep our Sabbath rest in Jesus because He is our Sabbath rest. He always was because you, my Adventist friend, at least know who Jesus is. Jesus speaks truly, and does not offer us a rest we already have, nor does he offer a rest he cannot give.

 

[3rdAngel]

Perhaps you need to follow the conversation a little more closely. Here let me help you with that.

Kenny said: The law isn’t abolished… I’m just dead to it and alive to love

Your response here,,,

Absolutely correct! It's amazing, one verse and the whole notion that Christians must keep a Sabbath is reproved.

My response to you here

It is absolutely wrong to claim we are alive in love by being dead to obeying Gods law. This is a contradiction of the scriptures and is a teaching of lawlessness. According to the scriptures love is not separate from obeying Gods law. Love is expressed by obeying what Gods law says from a new heart that has been born again to love which is a part of Gods new covenant promise (see Romans 13:8-10; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:10-12). Obeying Gods law from the heart by loving God and neighbor according to the scriptures is how Gods law is obeyed in those who are born to walk in God's Spirit (see Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Galatians 5:16) and why Jesus says that on these two great commandments of love to God and man (Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 in Matthew 22:36-40) "Hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). So to claim we can love God and neighbour while breaking Gods law simply shows we do not love God or our fellow man and are still in our sins which is the very definition of breaking Gods law in 1 John 3:4. Love to God and man therefore are demonstrated in obeying Gods law from the heart through love which fulfills the righteous requirements of the law to both God and man and Gods new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:34-37) revealed in all those who have been born again to walk in Gods Spirit (compare John 33:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Galatians 5:16). According to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4 those who claim to know God but break His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. I will break my post into smaller ones to address your large post and make it easier for you to respond and for others to read. (more to come).

Your response here...

I agree! However being alive in Christ is not being dead to God's law, and it is absolutely wrong to claim that we are disobeying God's law by obeying Christ. Did you not read the scriptures? That's something they Pharisees would think 3rd Angel. My friend, your argument is with scripture, not with me.

So what is it? Do you agree with Kenny being dead to the law and alive to love when the response from the scriptures proves that love is not separate from obedience to Gods law from the heart and it is love that leads us to obey what Gods Word says? Look at what you wrote here. Where did I say anywhere to you that obeying Christ is disobeying Gods law and if I never posted any such thing why pretend that is what I have said? Is this again not bearing false witness? Finally, how can we obey Christ by disobeying what Gods law says. Jesus Himself as posted in the post you are quoting from states himself on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:36-40). It is clear that is it you that did not read what you were responding to. You are deflecting and it is clear your argument is with scripture not me as already proven in the posts you are responding to.

Let's go over this again."In the same way, my brethren, you also were made dead to the marriage law of the Old Covenant by the body of Christ". (Romans 7:4)

Why would you need to go over it again. Your claims to Roman 7 being an excuse for sin has already been dealt with by providing full scripture contexts from Romans 6:1-23; Romans 7:1-25 and Romans 8:1-13 in post # 3034 linked that you have ignored. Please read the full context of all chapters. Romans 7:1-25 is talking about the law of sin working in our members (Romans 7:4-6). Romans 7 1:25 is about being free from our sinful human nature. Read the complete context and stop cherry picking single scriptures.

 

[3rdAngel]

When Paul claims we are dead to the law, it does not mean we are breaking the law, and no, it does not mean Paul was breaking the law either. It simply means the law no longer has a hold on us. Paul compares this to a marriage contract. In the past, we were married to the Old Covenant. While in the contract, you are bound to your spouse. Once the spouse dies, you are no longer bound, which is exactly why Christ died for us.

According to the scriptures the purpose of Gods law according to Paul in Romans 3:20 from the same book and Romans 7:7 from the same chapter is that the law gives us the knowledge of what sin is when we break Gods law and is holy just and good (Romans 7:12). Paul therefore is not saying we are dead to Gods law we Gods law according to the scriptures gives us the knowledge of GOOD (moral right doing when obeyed; and EVIL (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); SIN (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and RIGHTEOUSNESS (moral right doing when obeyed (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172). This is why as posted earlier Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Romans 7 is talking about more than one law. 1. The law of marriage being married to the man of sin and unable to remarry until our old man of sin has died before we can be remarried to Christ (Romans 7:1-6). 2. Gods law giving us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it (Romans 7:7-19) and 3. The law of sin and death working in our members (the law of our sinful nature Romans 7:1-6; Romans 7:21-23). So it is the law of sin and death that does not have a hold on us because through faith we have been granted Gods forgiveness of our sins through the blood of Christ. This is what Romans 7:23-25 is saying and Romans 8:1-4 "1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Note here that it is the righteousness of Gods law that is fulfilled in us if we walk in Gods Spirit. This is in agreement with Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 and also with Paul in Romans 13:8-10 where he states love leads us to obey Gods law not break Gods law.

Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ… The “body of Christ” is the church, and once Christ died, we who claim Christ (the Church) are no longer bound to the law, we are bound to Christ. In fact, we become his bride: …that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from God. So we are still married to who? The Old Covenant?? NO! We are MARRIED to CHRIST. He claims us (the church) as his BRIDE so we are no longer MARRIED to the LAW! The scripture is clear. We were once married to the law, but the law has become DEAD to us by the body of Christ (which is not only the body of Christ, but the church), or all those who claim Christ crucified. We are not, as you claim, somehow married to both, as no Christian can claim two brides, and neither our death to the law or our marriage to Christ is “lawlessness”, because Christ is our law.

You certainly have no understanding of the scriptures and this is genuine proof right here. The "body of Christ" in Romans 7 is not in reference to the Church here it is a reference to Christs death on the cross paying the price for our sins so that we through faith can walk in newness of life. Read the scripture contexts already provided in Romans 6:1-23 which is talking about baptism being symbolic of Christ death and us dying to the old man of sin and walking in newness of life without sin (obedience to Gods law). We die, that is our man of sin, with Christ on the cross, so that we are now free from sin, so we can walk in newness of life and be married to another (Christ). Romans 7:4 We are dead to the (condemnation of the) law by the body of Christ can be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God." Fruit to God is not now being free to disobey Gods law. Fruit to God is a reference of to being obedient to Gods law (see Romans 13:8-10). Romans 7:1-25 talks no where about being married to Gods law it is about being married to the old man of sin and death and walking in newness of life with Christ.

But now we are released* from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:6)
QUESTION: What does "released from the law" mean to you, @3rdAngel ? Does it mean "lawlessness"? Well it would, but you forget, our release* from the law ( Yes, it says "release"), does not mean we are now lawless, it simply means we are wedded to Christ. We are bound to Christ and NOT the law. We have FREEDOM in Christ, rather than CAPTIVITY in the law. This is what freedom in Christ is, 3rdAngel. It's freedom from the law, but it is not "lawlessness" because our bride is now Christ, rather than the law. *katargéō (from 2596/katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691/argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. of no effect, totally without force (completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith

When we cheery pick scripture taken out of context and read into the scripture what the scriptures do not say or teach we come to a wrong understanding of the scriptures. According to the scriptures when we add the scripture context back in this is very easy to answer. Lets add all the scripture contexts back. Once we do this you will see that the law we are being released from is the law of sin and death not Gods 10 commandments. You are getting the three laws mixed up. It is the law of sin and death that we are freed from through faith in Christ. The law of sin and death is not Gods 10 commandments it is the sinful human nature working in our members leading us into sin. We are not freed from the requirements to obey Gods law that is the very definitions of what sin is stated by Paul in Romans 7:7-12. The scripture with context says in Romans 7:4-6 " 4, Why, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ (Christs death); that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God. 5, For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death. 6, But now we are delivered from the law (by the body of Christs death for our sins), that being dead wherein we were held (sin in our members); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Being released from the law therefore means to be forgiven for our sins and the laws condemnation for breaking it through the body of Christ. You do err not knowing the scriptures. May you receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. It is your application to law that is the problem here as demonstrated through the scriptures. We are not released from obeying Gods law we are released from the condemnation of the law and sin and death that is working through our members by the body of Christs death for our sins.

I think this thread has done a great service to those who have been told or brought up thinking they might still be bound to the law, and I thank you for presenting a topic not oft addressed in the RF community it. Adventists believe we are still bound to the law. Scripture clearly states we are released. Adventists claim being released means we are "lawless". Scripture tells us our marriage to Christ means we are even more firmly bound to God. From my standpoint, we can believe Adventists or we believe scripture. I think the majority of Christians have already made the correct choice and after reading this thread, can feel even more secure in their choice of Christ over the law.

Your words here are in disagreement with Gods Word. So your argument here is with God not me. As already proven from the scriptures throughout this thread no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says as it is written in the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. For me only Gods Word is true ands we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts 5:29. Your words have no truth in them.

 

[3rdAngel]

Who makes this claim that Romans 7 is teaching that it is now alright to disobey God's law???

I haven't seen this person posting here. Let this person speak up and show their self, that we may slay this heresy together!!!

I don't this this person is going to show up anytime soon, so let's get a little more into the nitty gritty, and wade into the weeds a bit.




Actually, they are both in the same context. We can't take the context of Romans 6:1-23 while ignoring the context of Romans 7:1-25. We should consider both, and not to the detriment of the other.

The first few chapters of Romans provides us with a rather concise synopsis of the gospel, establishing the pillars on which we rest doctrine.

Many churches don't rest their doctrines on these pillars, which is why they attack Paul. You've seen some attack Paul here.

I can say that we disagree on some "disputable matters" (Romans 7:1) 3rdAngel, but at least we don't disagree on Paul.



We don't disagree here. However, proclaiming Christ crucified instead of the law is not "sinning".

If you continue reading the scriptural context, you’ll find Paul compares this to a marriage contract. While in the contract, you are bound to your spouse. Once the spouse dies, you are no longer bound, which is exactly why Christ died for us.

Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ…

The “body of Christ” is the church, and once Christ died, we who claim Christ (the Church) are no longer bound to the law, we are bound to Christ. In fact, we become his bride:

…that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from God.

The scripture is clear. We were once married to the law, but the law has become DEAD to us by the body of Christ (which is not only the body of Christ, but the church), or all those who claim Christ crucified. We are not, as you claim, married to both, as no Christian can claim two brides, and neither our death to the law or our marriage to Christ is “lawlessness”. Neither are we married to the Law, as we are Christians, and thus married to Christ.

Who in your church claims they cannot marry another once their spouse had died? Yet, if you read the context of Romans 6 and 7, you will find our former, heavy yolk to the Old Covenant was likened to a marriage contract where Christ died to the Old so that we could rise with him in the New.

The veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom the moment Jesus died. We cannot sew or stitch the rent back together. We simply don't have the tools to do so, as this awaits the final arrival of our Messiah.

Christianity has already made a choice, and I certainly do not foresee a scenario where the church is accused or held guilty ("lawless") for placing all their faith in a risen Christ, rather than apportioning their faith between Jesus and the law. It seems like the Adventist, rather than expressing a total trust in our risen Savior, attempt to "cover their bets" by moving some of their faith onto the Sabbath.

From my standpoint, one can an either believe scripture or they can believe Adventists on this matter. This topic has already come up in the church, as mentioned by the Judaizers who mistakenly thought gentiles had become married to the law.

Much of this has already been addressed in the last post and the earlier post and is simply repetition on your side. So nothing more to add here to what has been already addressed in the last post and this one. Let me make this post clear for you in light of 1 John 2:3-4 3 which is Gods test to know if we truly know God or do not know God that we finished up on in the last post. This is a simple test from the scriptures to let us know if we know God or do not know Him and it is made very clear in

• 1 John 2:3-4 which says 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

From the scriptures above..

1. If we keep Gods commandments we know that we know God
2. If we do not keep Gods commandments and sin against God by breaking them we do not know God
3. Likewise, if anyone come claiming to have a message that is from God but does not keep Gods commandments they are lying and the truth is not in them.

Question for you is do you obey Gods commandments which also include Gods Sabbath commandment from Exodus 20:8-11? If you do not they what is the scripture above teaching you about your relationship with God?

Now to make the claim that Romans 7 is teaching that it is now alright to free from Gods law to disobey Gods law is a teaching of lawlessness which is not a teaching of the bible and a teaching that disregards the contexts of Romans 6:1-23 and Romans 8:1-13 that does not agree with a teaching of lawlessness and sin. The context of Romans 7:1-25 is Romans 6:1-23 where it is clearly stated that we are not to continue in sin which is defined in the scriptures are breaking Gods law in 1 John 2:3-4. For example the context of Romans 7:1-5 is Romans 6:1-23 where Paul is asking the question in Romans 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin (breaking Gods law), that grace may abound? 2, God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? So to claim that Roman 7 we are no longer required to obey Gods law is to disregard scripture context that states we we are not to live in sin which is defined in the scriptures (1 John 3:4) as breaking Gods law. Romans 6 is using baptism as a metaphor and teaches that we are to die to our old man of sin (breaking Gods law) and walk in newness of life to walk in Gods Spirit obeying Gods law (see Romans 6:3-4; Romans 6-7; Romans 6:8-23).

Pretty much the whole chapter contexts of Romans 6:1-23 and Romans 8 disagrees with your interpretation that Romans 7 is teaching that we are now free to break Gods law in fact it teaches the opposite. According to the scriptures, Romans 7 continues the same teaching of Romans 6 that our old man that we are married before we become married to Christ has to die before we can be one with Christ and walk in newness of life. Romans 7 uses the metaphor this time of marriage to the old man of sin and showing that this man of sin must first die before we can be married to Christ and walk in newness of life. The law being spoken of is the law of sin and death working through our members *Romans 7:4-7 compare Romans 7:23). Paul is stating that it is sin that is the problem that the law reveals not the law that reveals sin and calls the law holy, just and good (Romans 7:7; Romans 7:12). Paul goes on to say in closing Romans 7 which outlines a life controlled by sin and death in v24, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Sin starts in our mind and that is where we are to obey Gods law (see Matthew 5:28 on sin starting in the mind) from a new heart that loves God and our fellow man.

Romans 7 is talking about those who walk in the flesh (σάρξ (sárx | G4561) which means carnal mind or sinful human nature. Romans 7:25 is therefore saying if we continue walking in the flesh (carnal mind; sinful thoughts and feelings) we will follow the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-4 continues showing how the new man in Christ walks in Gods Spirit (faith in Gods Word) by saying in Romans 8:1-4 1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. You do err not knowing the scriptures scriptures and teachings doctrines of devils. Gods Word nowhere from Genesis to Revelation teaches lawlessness. Sin is the very reason Jesus came into our world to save all mankind. The scriptures teach if you continue in known unrepentant sin you will die in your sins (see Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:13-23; 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures sin (breaking Gods law) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. Those who practice known unrepentant sin do not know God and are not His children according to 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-10.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

So where do you go from there?

You cannot possibly seek salvation by keeping commandments you have already broken. A broken commandment is not a kept commandment. Worse, there is no commandment that allows you to break other commandments, either once, or "once in a while". No matter what we tell ourselves, there is no free pass.

Indeed, it would be better for the tax collector who pleads mercy on his last day than the Pharisee who claims to have kept the commandments:

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I am sure this Pharisee thought the tax collector "lawless" or worse, but this was not the view of God, it was simply the view of the tax collector. It's certainly not a view I want to have just before I come before His judgement seat, yet we have other Christians who call us "lawless".

Also, to be sure, the path you suggest is simply impossible, at least by scriptural standards:

"So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law." Galatians 3:11

So once again, I am confronted with Adventists who claim I can be kept right by trying to keep the law, and scripture which tells me this path is impossible. So instead of covering myself with Sabbaths, I choose to cover myself with Jesus. Rather than obey the law, I simply obey him, and I keep his commandments rather than the law.

All in all, I believe he offers a much better and more attainable deal, especially since the law offers no salvation at all.

I think it was pretty clear to where I was going to here. You simply ignored the post you were part responding to and it is being dishonest to make claims that I am saying things I have never once said in this OP or anywhere in this forum. As posted many times now from the scriptures I believe "we are saved by Gods grace through faith and not of the works of the law lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Obedience to Gods law is not how we are saved because everyone of us have broken Gods law therefore it is by Gods grace that we are saved that we receive through faith in the free gift of Gods dear son and His shed blood for our sins. However the scriptures are very clear here in Romans 6:1-2 where it is written 1, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2, God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?; 6, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin. 7, For he that is dead is freed from sin." Sound familiar to Romans 7:1-6? It should as it is the same subject matter although the example here is baptism and Romans 7 is marriage. This is also in agreement with James in James 2:13-26 that show if we claim to have faith but do not do what Gods Word says then all we have is the dead faith of devils who Jesus will say in Matthew 7:21-23 "Depart from me you who work iniquity. I never knew you." (this agrees with our test to know if we know God or do not know God from 1 John 2:3-4).

According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments in 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7 and Gods law teaches us that if we break anyone of Gods commandments we have sinned against God and stand before God guilty of sin and death (see Romans 3:19-20). So this OP has nothing to do with making a difference between the resurrection of Jesus and the Sabbath which is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to the scriptures. The OP is simply showing that the claim that "the Lords day" is in reference to Sunday or the first day of the week as the resurrection day of Jesus is unsupported in the scriptures and that "the Lords day" is simply a reference to the Sabbath day that Jesus is Lord over being our creator (see Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28) Sin however remains as sin in the bible which is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) which includes Gods seventh day Sabbath which is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Exodus 20:3-17; Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11). There is not a single scripture from Genesis to Revelation that says Gods seventh day Sabbath commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a holy day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and traditions handed down by the early Church that is not supported in the scriptures leading those who follow it away from God and His Word into breaking the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3:9. Jesus says that all those who follow the teachings and traditions of men that lead them away from God and His Word into breaking the commandments of God are not worshiping God. This will be the testing question that will come to everyone of us. Who do we choose to believe and follow; God or man? Will we bow down to the golden image of man or believe and obey what Gods Word says and be thrown into the fiery furnace of the ruler of this world and remain faithful to God and His Word?

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

All of Gods 10 commandments which also includes the Sabbath commandment are taught and repeated throughout the old and new testament scriptures by Jesus and the Apostles. Everyone of Gods 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament as the standard of good and evil; sin and righteousness and Gods law (10 commandments) are taught throughout the new testament by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-28; Matthew 19:17-21; Mark 10:17-21; Matthew 22:36-40; Matthew 15:3-9; John 14:15; John 15:10) Jesus also taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (see Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56) and that He is Lord of the Sabbath that He made for all mankind (see Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28. Happy to show a lot more scripture here just let me know? Hebrews 4:9 says "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath".

Your response here..

Well, that's not true at all. The Jewish Sabbath is not taught in the New Testament. Here's what scripture tells us about this Sabbath

Please be honest in your responses to me. In your last post you micro-quoted me saying "All of Gods 10 commandments which also includes the Sabbath commandment are taught and repeated throughout the old and new testament scriptures by Jesus and the Apostles." but then you leave out all the scripture references from the new testament quoting Gods law and Jesus teaching the Sabbath in the new testament? How is that not true at all?

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." Deuteronomy 5:15 The Jews were told to keep the Sabbath because they were brought out of Egypt. It's right there in the 10 commandments.

I do not know how to tell you how stupid this argument is. Have you had time to reflect and think this argument through? If you are trying to argue here that God gave the Sabbath only to the nation of Israel because of they needed a rest because they were slaves in Egypt then this interpretation of the scriptures is in disagreement with God in Genesis 3:1-3 and when the 10 commandments were spoken by God himself in Exodus 20:8-11 and Jesus in Mark 2:7 that state the following...

• EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> [Because JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day] [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God [This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK]: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

Note: Exodus 20:11 is God giving the reason for the Sabbath which is referring back to what God said in Genesis 2:1-3

• GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

Note: The reason for the Sabbath commandment was because the Sabbath is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth. Genesis is the origin of the Sabbath that God made for all mankind. Now note the very words of Jesus in Mark 2:27

• MARK 2:27 [27], And he said to them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN and not man for the Sabbath.

Note: The Greek word used here for MAN is G444 ἄνθρωπος; anthrōpos From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance ; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.

Now please pay attention. Jesus (not me) says that the reason that the Sabbath was made in creation (Genesis 2:1-3) was for mankind. There was no Jew, no Moses, no law, no Israel when Jesus says God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31. Your interpretation of Deuteronomy 5 that the reason the Sabbath was given was because of Israel being slaves in Egypt is in disagreement with both God and Jesus who state word for word that the Sabbath was made as a memorial of creation in Exodus 20:8-11; Made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 both referring back to Genesis 2:1-3 when there was only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week.

Now lets leave you with no wiggle room by adding all the context back into Deuteronomy and why it was given.

• DEUTERONOMY 5:12-15 12, KEEP THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY, AS THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS COMMANDED YOU. 13, SIX DAYS YOU SHALL LABOR, AND DO ALL YOUR WORK: 14, BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD: IN IT YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY WORK, YOU, NOR YOUR SON, NOR YOUR DAUGHTER, NOR YOUR MANSERVANT, NOR YOUR MAIDSERVANT, nor your ox, nor your ***, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates; that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. 15, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WERE A SERVANT IN THE LAND OF EGYPT, AND THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT THERE THROUGH A MIGHTY HAND AND BY A STRETCHED OUT ARM: THEREFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD COMMANDED YOU TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY.

Note The complete context is the reason for Deuteronomy 5:15. Israel were to remember they were slaves in Egypt and God delivered them out of Egypt from being slaves and that they are to remember the Sabbath because in Egypt they were not keeping the Sabbath and everyone associated with them including those working for them were to obey the Sabbath (context v 12-14). Coming out of Egypt was not the reason for the giving of the Sabbath. The reason for the Sabbath was already explained by God when he first spoke the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 and Genesis 2:1-3 and confirmed by Jesus in Mark 2:27. Deuteronomy 5:12-15 is just Moses repeating the Sabbath commandments already given bu God and telling the people of Israel to "Remember" the commandment because they were not keeping the Sabbath as slaves in Egypt and that anyone working for them must also keep the Sabbath commandment. I am not much into bible commentaries but I will leave you one from a Sunday keeping scholar that is also in agreement with what I have shared with you here and in disagreement with you.

• Barnes' Notes on the Bible; The exhortation to observe the Sabbath and allow time of rest to servants (compare Exodus 23:12) is pointed by reminding the people that they too were formerly servants themselves. The bondage in Egypt and the deliverance from it are not assigned as grounds for the institution of the Sabbath, which is of far older date (see Genesis 2:3), but rather as suggesting motives for the religious observance of that institution. The Exodus was an entrance into rest from the toils of the house of bondage, and is thought actually to have occurred on the Sabbath day or "rest" day.

Receive Gods Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make if disappear. Sin will keep all who knowingly practice it out of Gods kingdom.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

But before we get into Hebrews 4, let get the setup. We find this in the last few verses of the 3rd chapter: 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:16-19) So we find God was ANGRY with the Jews because of their rebellion! Are the Jews "at rest" with God? NO! They are at a state of unrest, not rest. He was angry at those who rebelled and this rebellion prevented Israel from entering a state of rest with God. They didn't believe the promise of God so how could they rest? Now let's go back to chapter 4: 6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience... QUESTION for @3rdAngel: To whom was the Sabbath "first preached"? Was it Adam? It couldn't have been Adam because it state to those whom it was "first preached" DID NOT ENTER. On the other hand, Adam, when he was first created, was IMMEDIATELY at rest with God. His disobedience did not come until later. If the Sabbath been initiated at the "time of creation", then it would have been "preached" or communicated to Adam. However, there would be no "first preached" if Adam is the only human in existence...there would have been no other person to preach to. So the Sabbath was "first preached" to the Jews. How do we know this? Because you cannot show us a Sabbath in Genesis. Also, the verse says "to whom it was first preached", This indicates it was preached to particular human group, person, or entity Let's continue our bible study: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: Who is the "He"? God of course. Who is He saying it to? David of course, not all mankind. Is He saying an existing day? No! He says a certain day, not an existing day. Let's continue our bible study: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Bingo! God instructed His people to practice the Sabbath while living in the Promised Land. If the rest of the Promise Land had been enough, then there would have been no need for David to speak of a future rest in the Psalms. Now, having read these verses in context, we can see there remained a rest for people of God. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. This is NOT a single day of rest he is referring to. The prior was the shadow, but at that day will be the realization. This is what Christ meant when he says " "All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11: 27-28) David in Psalms would not have had to speak of another day, and Jesus would not have needed to offer rest if the Jews (or mankind) had rest in the Sabbath. We keep our Sabbath rest in Jesus because He is our Sabbath rest. He always was because you, my Adventist friend, at least know who Jesus is. Jesus speaks truly, and does not offer us a rest we already have, nor does he offer a rest he cannot give.

Here let me add the full scripture context for you for both Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is a warning that those who do not believe and obey what Gods Word says do not enter into Gods Sabbath rest defined in the scriptures as the seventh day created from the foundation of the world.

GOD'S WARNINGS AGAINST SIN AND UNBELIEF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4

Let's look at the scriptures in detail...

• HEBREWS 3:8-19 8, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS: 9, When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10, Why I WAS GRIEVED WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, THEY DO ALWAYS ERR IN THEIR HEART; AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS. 11, SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO MY REST. 12, TAKE HEED, BROTHERS, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; LEST ANY OF YOU BE HARDENED THROUGH THE DECEITFULNESS OF SIN. 14, For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST TO THE END; 15, While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, as in the provocation. 16, For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17, BUT WITH WHOM WAS HE GRIEVED FORTY YEARS? WAS IT NOT WITH THEM THAT HAD SINNED, WHOSE CARCASSES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS? 18, And to whom swore he THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO HIS REST, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT? 19, So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

• Hebrews 3:8 A warning not to harden our hearts to God's Word
• Hebrews 3:9-10 Those in the wilderness tempted God 40 years and did not obey him or his ways
• Hebrews 3:11 God swore they would not enter into "His Rest" (Genesis 2:1-3; see Ezekiel 20:10-13)
• Hebrews 3:12 Another warning not to harden our hearts in unbelief departing from God
• Hebrews 3:13 Encourage one and other lest we harden our hearts in sin (breaking Gods' law 1 John 3:4)
• Hebrews 3:14 We are only partakers of Christ "IF" we hold the the faith steadfast to the end
• Hebrews 3:15-17 More warnings not to harden our hearts as those who sinned died in the wilderness
• Hebrews 3:18-19 God did not let them enter into "His rest" because they were in sin (breaking His law) and unbelief

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's link to Ezekiel 20:10-13 how God's people were breaking "His Sabbath" and God poured out his judgements on them...

• EZEKIEL 20:10-13 [10], Why I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and BROUGHT THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11], and I GAVE THEM MY STATUTES, AND SHOWED THEM MY JUDGMENTS, WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL LIVE IN THEM. [12], MOREOVER ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM. [13], BUT THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: THEY WALKED NOT IN MY STATUTES AND DESPISED MY JUDGMENTS WHICH IF A MAN DO THEY SHALL LIVE IN THEM AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: THEN I SAID I WOULD POUR OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

Note: Hebrews 3 and it's links to Psalms 95:2-11 and Ezekiel 20:10-13 which is also over worshiping God as the God of creation and the Sabbath commandment and not entering God's rest (the seventh day created from the foundation of the world)

• PSALMS 95:7-11 [7], For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. TO DAY IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, [8], HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, AND AS IN THE DAY OF TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS: [9], WHEN YOUR FATHERS TEMPTED ME, PROVED ME, AND SAW MY WORK. [10], FORTY YEARS LONG WAS I GRIEVED WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, IT IS A PEOPLE THAT DO ERR IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS: [11], TO WHOM I SWORE IN MY WRATH THAT THEY SHOULD NOT ENTER INTO MY REST.

FROM THE SCRIPTURES ABOVE

• Psalms 95:2-7 is worshiping the only true creator God of heaven and earth
• Psalms 95:8 "Harden not your hearts as in the provocation in the wilderness (see Hebrews 3:8)
• Psalms 95:9 "When your fathers tempted me 40 years" (see Hebrews 3:9)
• Psalms 95:10 40 years Gods' people did not know God's ways (Hebrews 3:10)
• Psalms 95:11 Because God's people did not know God's ways they did not enter His rest (Hebrews 3:11)

SUMMARY: Hebrews 3 links to Ezekiel 20:10-12 and is directly quoting from Psalms 95 which is about worshiping the only true God and creator of heaven and earth. God's people did not know God's ways and broke His Sabbaths according to these scriptures and God did not give them His rest. They could not enter into God's rest because of their hardened hearts, sin and unbelief and God poured out His judgements on them because they broke his Sabbaths and they died in the wilderness because of their unbelief and sins. This is the same warnings given in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4. Lets not find ourselves in the same group the hardened their hearts to hearing and believing Gods Word. It will not end well for us.

Let's define what Gods' rest/My rest/His rest is from the scriptures in the next post

more to come...

 

[3rdAngel]

Continued from previous post

WHAT IS GOD'S REST OF HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4:1-11

• [1], LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT.
• [2], FOR TO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS TO THEM: BUT THE WORD PREACHED DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT.
• [3], For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
• [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
• 5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

• Hebrews 4:1 More warnings to fear if we do not enter into "His rest" if we fall short of it.
• Hebrews 4:2 Because unto us was the gospel preached as well us unto them but they did not believe
• Hebrews 4:3 We who believe (present tense) enter into God's rest from the foundation of the world
• Hebrews 4:4 Reference of Hebrews 4:3 is to the Gods' Sabbath rest of the "seventh day"
• Hebrews 4:4-5 God's rest is the seventh day Sabbath of creation that we enter into by faith
• Genesis 2:1-3 Links to Hebrews 4:3-4 defining God's rest as "the seventh day"

NOTE: Context in Hebrews 4:1-5 is God's Rest from the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (v4-5) and those who enter Gods rest by and believing and following Gods Word [the gospel] who enter into God's Sabbath rest as God did on the seventh day of the week. The context here defining God’s rest/My rest/His rest is to God’s seventh day Sabbath rest created at the foundation of the world that those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do or do not enter into. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. There are two rests here. One is to the rest we enter into by believing and following Gods Word which is our rest and the rest we enter into by believing and following God’s Word to God’s rest which is the seventh day Sabbath. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

• [6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
• [7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
• [8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
• [9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
• [10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

According to the Greek and scripture contexts of Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-9, Hebrews 4:9 is in regards to God’s seventh day Sabbath of the 4th commandment which in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which defines God’s rest/My rest/His rest (Hebrews 3:11; 18-19; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5; 10) as the “seventh day” from the foundation of the world *Hebrews 4:3-4.

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Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
Hebrews 4:9 It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

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For your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left behind) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath keeping) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS EXHAUSTIVE Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. (Note the rest of Vines comments is not the Greek it is his opinion)

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS (left behind) FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. (Aramaic)

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Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:1-11 is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5. Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day"). There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14.

................

SUMMARY: God's rest being referred to in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation. Our rest is that of believing and following Gods' Word. No one enters into God's rest (defined in Hebrews as the "seventh day Sabbath") unless they believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel rest). Of course God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) are a part of God's Word (the gospel) that God's people who enter into Gods rest believe and follow in Gods' Word just like Jesus did and the Apostles and prophets in Gods' Word. Everything provided here are not my words but have been taken directly from the scriptures which are God's Words not mine (exegesis). The warnings here are very clear. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word in order to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin (breaking anyone of God's commandments - James 2:10-11) just like those in the wilderness do not enter into Gods' rest (seventh day Sabbath) and will be in danger of the judgement to come (Hebrews 10:26-31). Schools out you got an F. They are teaching you lies in Sunday school. God study the bible for yourself. Receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word in order to justify sin does not make Gods Word disappear it becomes our judge come judgement day according to Jesus in Matthew 12:47-48.

P.S. You may want to get your facts right. The only biblical definition of the Sabbath from Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 is the "seventh day of the week" Jesus is neither the seventh day or the Sabbath and there is not a single scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath in the entire bible. Jesus is not the Sabbath He is the creator of it according to the scriptures and breaking it like any of Gods other 10 commandments according to the scriptures is sin (see 1 John 3:4). Those who continue practicing known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will be lost come judgement day (see Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:31-23).

 

[Oeste]

The law isn’t abolished… I’m just dead to it and alive to love

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Absolutely correct!

It's amazing, one verse and the whole notion that Christians must keep a Sabbath is reproved.

It is absolutely wrong to claim we are alive in love by being dead to obeying Gods law. This is a contradiction of the scriptures and is a teaching of lawlessness.

I agree!

However being alive in Christ is not being dead to God's law, and it is absolutely wrong to claim that we are disobeying God's law by obeying Christ

So what is it? Do you agree with Kenny being dead to the law and alive to love...

I am in wholehearted agreement with @Kenny. We are dead to the law and alive to love.

...when the response from the scriptures proves that love is not separate from obedience to Gods law from the heart and it is love that leads us to obey what Gods Word says? Look at what you wrote here.

I also agree that love of God is not separate to obedience to God's law. Of course, I don't agree that Adventist Law is God's Law, and I don't mix and match the two.

So what what was that Law again? You know, the big one. Was it obedience?? In a way, I suppose, but we mustn't put the cart before the horse.

Oh yes, here it is:

​

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.​

And here it isn't:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'OBEY the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."​

Can you spot the difference? Of course you can, but let me illustrate for those who cannot.

I am a soldier in the army and my commanding officer has just told me to drop and give him 50. I obey and do my pushups, using all my heart, soul and mind to complete my task as quickly and faithfully as possible.

Does this mean I love my commanding officer?

Of course not. It simply means that I am good at following orders. But God doesn't want someone who simply follows orders. He wants those who love him wholeheartedly. If he simply wanted a people who could follow orders, he would have made us automatons. This is why LOVE come 1st. Now when we LOVE God we will follow his orders, at least as best we can.

Now that we understand LOVE comes before OBEDIENCE, we can straighten out what you see as conflict.

When Paul says we are DEAD to the Law, it means the Law is nullified. As you may recall, there were many instances in our Old Testament, where the Jews simply went "through the motions". They kept the Sabbath, they gave a tenth, even of their spices...you know, the whole shebang. But their hearts weren't in it. More ceremony and more law did not make them more loving, either to their God or to each other. In fact, it appeared that for many of them, it only made them pompous, even to loving the technicalities the law sometimes brought over the love in which it was given. Even now, the illusion that one "keeps the law" can give Christians a prideful feeling of spiritual superiority; a ladder or perch to assess your position amongst other Christians. No longer is it a matter of how much you love or humble yourself, but how much you keep the law while appearing to be humble.​

In any event, I'm sure that's no one here on this forum. Yeah, it's probably just those ancients back in the day.

But let's address your theory that Sabbath keeping is God's law.

It's not, at least not for the vast majority of Christians. It can be for those who place themselves under the law, but not for us to whom the law is dead.

If the law is dead to us, then the law has no power over us. Does this make us lawless?

Of course not.

We follow Christ and his commandments. We died to the law just as surely as the law died to us. Why would I obey a dead law, when I have a living Christ?

In my book, Christ is sufficient for my salvation or he is not. I can add my own good "works", but that is adding to my reward, not my salvation. Quite simply there is no salvation under the law, and yes, that includes Sabbaths.. Keeping Sabbaths will not save, but keeping Jesus will.

 

[Oeste]

Let's go over this again.

"In the same way, my brethren, you also were made dead to the marriage law of the Old Covenant by the body of Christ". (Romans 7:4)

Why would you need to go over it again. Your claims to Roman 7 being an excuse for sin has already been dealt with by providing full scripture contexts from Romans 6:1-23;

Why do we need to go over this again??

Well obviously because you neither understood my post or the quoted scripture. You present a strawman. I have never presented Romans 7 "as an excuse for sin".

That is just nonsense. Come to think of it, no one else has presented Romans 7 "as an excuse for sin" either.

The ONLY person who claims this is YOU. It's a strawman, a construction of your own imagination that you can knock down.

But let me get this straight. Are YOU claiming that PAUL presents this as "an excuse for sin"???

Have you been conversing a bit much with our anti-Pauline poster? If so, I would expect you too have swung him more to the center rather than you ending up in left field.

 

[Oeste]

Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ…
The “body of Christ” is the church, and once Christ died, we who claim Christ (the Church) are no longer bound to the law, we are bound to Christ. In fact, we become his bride:

…that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit from God.
So we are still married to who? The Old Covenant?? NO!

We are MARRIED to CHRIST. He claims us (the church) as his BRIDE so we are no longer MARRIED to the LAW!

You certainly have no understanding of the scriptures and this is genuine proof right here. The "body of Christ" in Romans 7 is not in reference to the Church here it is a reference to Christs death on the cross paying the price for our sins so that we through faith can walk in newness of life.Read the scripture contexts already provided in Romans 6:1-23 which is talking about baptism being symbolic of Christ death and us dying to the old man of sin and walking in newness of life without sin (obedience to Gods law). We die, that is our man of sin, with Christ on the cross, so that we are now free from sin, so we can walk in newness of life and be married to another (Christ). Romans 7:4 We are dead to the (condemnation of the) law by the body of Christ can be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God." Fruit to God is not now being free to disobey Gods law. Fruit to God is a reference of to being obedient to Gods law (see Romans 13:8-10). Romans 7:1-25 talks no where about being married to Gods law it is about being married to the old man of sin and death and walking in newness of
life with Christ.

WOW!

That was a bit off the charts 3rdAngel.

So "the body of Christ" is not a reference to the church.

Ooookay, I'm listening, but I'm not sure if I'm listening to an Adventist. My bad, I thought I was, so let's get right down to the real nitty-gritty then. It may help me and any of our readers make more sense of your post.

You say “We through faith…” but you deny the “WE” is the church. Who is this “WE” if not the church?

Is it “You” and a small, select band of “true" Christians that excludes the “at large” or traditional church?

 

[Oeste]

Paul therefore is not saying we are dead to Gods law we Gods law according to the scriptures gives us the knowledge of GOOD (moral right doing when obeyed; and EVIL (moral wrong doing when disobeyed);

Paul is most certainly saying we are dead to the law!

How can you say we are NOT dead to the Law when Paul specifically states we are?

Romans 7:4 says, "In the same way, my brethren, you also were made dead to the marriage law of the Old Covenant by the body of Christ". The verse continues, "in order for you to be married to another, Who was raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God"

Romans 6:4: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Sorry 3rdAngel, we are not under the law but we are under Christ's grace.

You simply cannot get under this verse, it too deep. You cannot get over this verse, it's too high. You cannot get around this verse, it's too wide, and you cannot punch your way through this verse, because it's God breathed.

 

[Oeste]

Once we do this you will see that the law we are being released from is the law of sin and death not Gods 10 commandments. You are getting the three laws mixed up.

Well this is new!

We are released from sin and death, but not from the law?

The "law of sin and death" IS the "Old Testament" law. We could not possibly meet the conditions required by the law 3rdAngel. No one fallen has, no one fallen could, and no one fallen will. All the law does is lead us to sin and death. It condemns us, it does no redemptive work. If salvation could have come by adhering to the law, why do you think it was necessary for Jesus to come?

Christ is our High Priest, He is greater than the temple in Jerusalem because He is our temple. He is Lord, and Lord even of the Sabbath. We trust Him and we trust His rest.

 

[Oeste]

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." Deuteronomy 5:15

I do not know how to tell you how stupid this argument is. Have you had time to reflect and think this argument through?

It's not my argument 3rdAngel, it's God speaking here. Have you had time to reflect and thnk His reasons through?

I understand that you would like us to think that God gave the Sabbath to "all mankind" because on the 7th day of creation He rested. But God did not give the Sabbath "to all mankind" during the 7th creative day. Did He rest? Yep! Did He give a Sabbath Day to "all mankind"? Nope!


As HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED, time and time again. mankind was ALREADY AT REST in God. There would not have been a need for man to rest when "all mankind" is already at rest in God.

Secondly, there is no mention of ANY MAN, Adam or otherwise, keeping a Sabbath in Genesis. It's just not there.

3rd, as pointed out above, God gave ISRAEL a Sabbath because he brought them out of Egypt. You claim that's a stupid reason, but that's on you.

4th, It's not the ONLY reason He gave Israel the Sabbath.

If you are trying to argue here that God gave the Sabbath only to the nation of Israel because of they needed a rest because they were slaves in Egypt then this interpretation of the scriptures is in disagreement with God in Genesis 3:1-3 and when the 10 commandments were spoken by God himself in Exodus 20:8-11 and Jesus in Mark 2:7 that state the following...

No, it's not in "disagreement" at all. I am showing you, via scripture, that the Sabbath is not only because God rested on the 7th creative Day. You dismiss all other reasons for the Sabbath but your own as "stupid" even when God speaks them. I find that rather repulsive, so I think our conversation is about to come to a close.


Anyways, I leave you with one final walk through scripture. Respond if you can:

Exodus 31

12 "Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths."​

Question: Why the Israelites? I thought you said there was no such thing as a "Jewish Sabbath". And why to the Israelites and not "all mankind"?

"This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy."​

Q: Wait a minute! What does God mean "This will be a sign"? Didn't you assure us it was already a sign, you know, since creation?

14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you."​

Why tell the Israelites this when they've been doing it all along? You know, since creation? And why does He say "....holy to you" when you've already assured us it was "holy to everybody"? Surely the Egyptians took the day off too, correct?

"Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death;"​

Well now, that's how one "keeps" a Sabbath. Does your church do the same?

"those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people."​

I'm sure you cut off anyone working that day from the rest of your congregation, don't you? That is, if you have a congregation and you're not simply a lone poster with his own ideas about a "proper" Sabbath keeping church.

15 "For six days work is to be done,:​

Ah, we discussed this before. You don't keep this part, do you? Where does it say it's alright to rest on any other day but Saturday?
When was six days of work "abolished"?

but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death.​

Again, we can find this right in the commandment! It's not something we find in "ceremonial " law, because the commandments aren't ceremonial, are they? So, to properly keep a biblical Sabbath you put violators to death?

16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.​

Again, God is telling us the ISRAELITES are to observe the Sabbath. Where is the scripture that says ALL MANKIND?

17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever,​

He says it will be a sign between Him and the Israelites, but He really meant between Him and "all mankind", right?

for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”​

There you have it! He, not "all mankind" rested on the 7th creative day. Again, all mankind would have already been at rest with God, having been created just 24 hours before. No need for mankind to rest from God's rest until Adam and Eve sinned.

Sorry, @3rdAngel, but the scriptures are clear. The Sabbath is for Israel, not "all mankind", and was given for MANY reasons, not simply because God rested on the 7th creative day. A 6 day work requirement was part and parcel to the Commandment, because it MIRRORS the work God did during His creative Days just as the 7th Day of Rest was to MIRROR His day of rest. Perhaps you can show us when the work requirement was abolished, or better, how your congregation keeps working 6, and not simply 5 days a week.

Barring this, the OP is reproved.

 

[3rdAngel]

I am in wholehearted agreement with @Kenny. We are dead to the law and alive to love.

That is the problem right there. Love and law are not separate from each other love leads us to obey what Gods Word says not disobey what Gods Word says. This is why Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (of love to God and man) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS (Matthew 22:36-40).

I also agree that love of God is not separate to obedience to God's law.

Then how can you say you are dead to the law when love and obedience to Gods law are not separate from each other (e.g. Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10)? What does that mean to you. Romans 7 does not agree with you here as already shown through the scripture contexts and my earlier posts you simply choose to micro-quote and ignore.

So what what was that Law again? You know, the big one. Was it obedience?? In a way, I suppose, but we mustn't put the cart before the horse. Oh yes, here it is: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. And here it isn't: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'OBEY the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."

Look not trying to be rude I have been quoting this exact same scripture to you for many posts now and your acting as if you just found it. So either you are not reading what has been written to you or you are just ignoring my posts and scriptures shared as a help for our discussion so I am not sure which one. Where did I ever replace LOVE in Matthew 22:36-40 with OBEY? If I never said these things, once again why pretend that is what I have said to you? This again is not being honest and building arguments no one is even arguing about. You might also want to continue reading a little further here to v40 where Jesus says that "ON THESE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS (of love to God and man) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS (Matthew 22:36-40). Jesus is actually quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 and showing that love is what causes us to obey God from the inside out. This is the same message Paul is giving in Romans 13:8-10. Go check it out.

We follow Christ and his commandments. We died to the law just as surely as the law died to us. Why would I obey a dead law, when I have a living Christ? In my book, Christ is sufficient for my salvation or he is not. I can add my own good "works", but that is adding to my reward, not my salvation. Quite simply there is no salvation under the law, and yes, that includes Sabbaths.. Keeping Sabbaths will not save, but keeping Jesus will.

We do not die to the law by disobeying Gods law. According to the scriptures that would be transgression of the law which the bible calls sin (1 John 3:4). Gods 10 commandments are not dead. According to Paul they are Holy Just and Good (Romans 7:12) and where given to us so we can have the knowledge of GOOD (moral right doing when obeyed) and EVIL (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); SIN (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and RIGHTEOUSNESS (moral right doing when obeyed) Read the scriptures *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. Without Gods law we have no knowledge of what sin is. If we do not know what sin is we have no knowledge that we are in need of Gods salvation. If we do not know we need Gods salvation we have no need for a Saviour and are still lost in our sins and unbelief. This is why Jesus said to those who did not believe "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:12-13) and the scripture is fulfilled "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12). According to the scriptures we are saved by Gods grace that we receive through faith it is a gift of God and now of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Think your argument through. If there is no law you have no knowledge of what sin is. Yet the bible teaches in Romans 3:9; 19; 23 that we have all sinned and stand guilty before God of sin and death that the law gives us a knowledge of (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7). Christ is indeed sufficient for our salvation but remember He did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The Scribes and the Pharisees did not know what that meant. Do you?

 

[3rdAngel]

It's not my argument 3rdAngel, it's God speaking here. Have you had time to reflect and thnk His reasons through?......... [snipped]

Well you just simply repeated yourself again while ignoring my post on this topic the proves from the scriptures and also from Sunday keeping scholars that your understanding of Deuteronomy 5 is not biblical. Here lets try this again perhaps you might want to respond to what I write to you this time and address my posts and scripture context that are in disagreement with you and prove why you are twisting scripture in order to justify your sins and unbelief instead of receiving Gods correction from His Word and being blessed.

According to the scriptures, if you are trying to argue here that God gave the Sabbath only to the nation of Israel because they needed a rest because they were slaves in Egypt then this interpretation of the scriptures is in disagreement with God in Genesis 3:1-3 and when the 10 commandments were spoken by God himself in Exodus 20:8-11 and also with Jesus in Mark 2:7 that state the following...

• EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> [Because JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day] [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God [This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK]: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

Note: Exodus 20:11 is God giving the reason for the Sabbath which is referring back to what God said in Genesis 2:1-3

• GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

Note: The reason for the Sabbath commandment was because the Sabbath is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth. Genesis is the origin of the Sabbath that God made for all mankind. Now note the very words of Jesus in Mark 2:27

• MARK 2:27 [27], And he said to them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN and not man for the Sabbath.

Note: The Greek word used here for MAN is G444 ἄνθρωπος; anthrōpos From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance ; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.

Now please pay attention. Jesus (not me) says that the reason that the Sabbath was made in creation (Genesis 2:1-3) was for mankind. There was no Jew, no Moses, no law, no Israel when Jesus says God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31. Your interpretation of Deuteronomy 5 that the reason the Sabbath was given was because of Israel being slaves in Egypt is in disagreement with both God and Jesus who state word for word that the Sabbath was made as a memorial of creation in Exodus 20:8-11; Made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 both referring back to Genesis 2:1-3 when there was only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week.

Now lets leave you with no wiggle room by adding all the context back into Deuteronomy and why it was given.

• DEUTERONOMY 5:12-15 12, KEEP THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY, AS THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS COMMANDED YOU. 13, SIX DAYS YOU SHALL LABOR, AND DO ALL YOUR WORK: 14, BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD: IN IT YOU SHALL NOT DO ANY WORK, YOU, NOR YOUR SON, NOR YOUR DAUGHTER, NOR YOUR MANSERVANT, NOR YOUR MAIDSERVANT, nor your ox, nor your ***, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates; that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. 15, AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WERE A SERVANT IN THE LAND OF EGYPT, AND THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT THERE THROUGH A MIGHTY HAND AND BY A STRETCHED OUT ARM: THEREFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD COMMANDED YOU TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY.

Note The complete context is the reason for Deuteronomy 5:15. Israel were to remember they were slaves in Egypt and God delivered them out of Egypt from being slaves and that they are to remember the Sabbath because in Egypt they were not keeping the Sabbath and everyone associated with them including those working for them were to obey the Sabbath (context v 12-14). Coming out of Egypt was not the reason for the giving of the Sabbath. The reason for the Sabbath was already explained by God when he first spoke the Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 and Genesis 2:1-3 and confirmed by Jesus in Mark 2:27. Deuteronomy 5:12-15 is just Moses repeating the Sabbath commandments already given bu God and telling the people of Israel to "Remember" the commandment because they were not keeping the Sabbath as slaves in Egypt and that anyone working for them must also keep the Sabbath commandment. I am not much into bible commentaries but I will leave you one from a Sunday keeping scholar that is also in agreement with what I have shared with you here and in disagreement with you.

SUNDAY KEEPING SCHOLAR

• Barnes' Notes on the Bible; The exhortation to observe the Sabbath and allow time of rest to servants (compare Exodus 23:12) is pointed by reminding the people that they too were formerly servants themselves. The bondage in Egypt and the deliverance from it are not assigned as grounds for the institution of the Sabbath, which is of far older date (see Genesis 2:3), but rather as suggesting motives for the religious observance of that institution. The Exodus was an entrance into rest from the toils of the house of bondage, and is thought actually to have occurred on the Sabbath day or "rest" day.

Receive Gods Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make if disappear. Sin will keep all who knowingly practice it out of Gods kingdom.

GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT ARE ALL THOSE WHO THROUGH FAITH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GODS WORD

According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, Gods true Israel are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.

 

[3rdAngel]

Why do we need to go over this again?? Well obviously because you neither understood my post or the quoted scripture. You present a strawman. I have never presented Romans 7 "as an excuse for sin". That is just nonsense. Come to think of it, no one else has presented Romans 7 "as an excuse for sin" either. The ONLY person who claims this is YOU. It's a strawman, a construction of your own imagination that you can knock down. But let me get this straight. Are YOU claiming that PAUL presents this as "an excuse for sin"??? Have you been conversing a bit much with our anti-Pauline poster? If so, I would expect you too have swung him more to the center rather than you ending up in left field.

We would you need to go over something that has already been addressed for you by adding in the full scripture context you choose to ignore and not address when I have already provided a detailed post with scripture contexts provided showing why your interpretation of Romans 7 is in disagreement with pretty much the whole bible? Please read and respond to post # 3043 linked; post # 3044 linked; post # 3045 linked that proves from the scriptures and scripture context why your understanding of Romans 7 is not biblical. If you cannot what is your argument for disregarding Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken? You have none.

 

[3rdAngel]

Paul is most certainly saying we are dead to the law! How can you say we are NOT dead to the Law when Paul specifically states we are? Romans 7:4 says, "In the same way, my brethren, you also were made dead to the marriage law of the Old Covenant by the body of Christ". The verse continues, "in order for you to be married to another, Who was raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God" Romans 6:4: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Sorry 3rdAngel, we are not under the law but we are under Christ's grace. You simply cannot get under this verse, it too deep. You cannot get over this verse, it's too high. You cannot get around this verse, it's too wide, and you cannot punch your way through this verse, because it's God breathed.

According to the scriptures the purpose of Gods law according to Paul in Romans 3:20 from the same book and Romans 7:7 from the same chapter is that the law gives us the knowledge of what sin is when we break Gods law and is holy just and good (Romans 7:12). Paul therefore is not saying we are dead to Gods law we Gods law according to the scriptures gives us the knowledge of GOOD (moral right doing when obeyed; and EVIL (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); SIN (moral wrong doing when disobeyed) and RIGHTEOUSNESS (moral right doing when obeyed (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172). This is why as posted earlier Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40. Romans 7 is talking about more than one law. 1. The law of marriage being married to the man of sin and unable to remarry until our old man of sin has died before we can be remarried to Christ (Romans 7:1-6). 2. Gods law giving us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it (Romans 7:7-19) and 3. The law of sin and death working in our members (the law of our sinful nature Romans 7:1-6; Romans 7:21-23). So it is the law of sin and death that does not have a hold on us because through faith we have been granted Gods forgiveness of our sins through the blood of Christ. This is what Romans 7:23-25 is saying and Romans 8:1-4 "1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4, That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Note here that it is the righteousness of Gods law that is fulfilled in us if we walk in Gods Spirit. This is in agreement with Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40 and also with Paul in Romans 13:8-10 where he states love leads us to obey Gods law not break Gods law. It is your application and understanding what what law is being referred to here that has led you into false interpretation of scripture.

According to the scriptures no one is "under the law" if they have received Gods forgiveness of their sins for breaking Gods law. The very definition of sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods law and not believing and obeying what Gods Word says (see 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23; John 3:36). So think your argument through for a moment and you will see what you teach makes no sense. You are trying to argue that you are dead to the law. Then how do you know what sin is? You cannot because sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking the law (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we break any one of Gods 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 (including the seventh day Sabbath) then we stand before God guilty of sin and breaking the law. So to be "under the law" Romans 3:19-20 means to be standing before God guilty of breaking the law " 19, "Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." So yes if we have received Gods forgiveness of sins through faith we are no longer standing before God guilty of sin and death. However, if we are still practicing known unrepentant sin (breaking Gods law) we are indeed under the law standing guilty before God of breaking the law and unless we turn to God and repent and seek His forgiveness for our sins we will be lost (see Hebrews 10:26-31; Matthew 7:13-23).

 

[3rdAngel]

Well this is new! We are released from sin and death, but not from the law? The "law of sin and death" IS the "Old Testament" law. We could not possibly meet the conditions required by the law 3rdAngel. No one fallen has, no one fallen could, and no one fallen will. All the law does is lead us to sin and death. It condemns us, it does no redemptive work. If salvation could have come by adhering to the law, why do you think it was necessary for Jesus to come? Christ is our High Priest, He is greater than the temple in Jerusalem because He is our temple. He is Lord, and Lord even of the Sabbath. We trust Him and we trust His rest.

Sorry nothing is new here. It is what is written in the scriptures. Please read them as they have already been provided in the post you are micro-quoting me from.

ROMANS 7

• 4, Why, my brothers, YOU ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW BY THE BODY OF CHRIST; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God. 5, FOR WHEN WE WERE IN THE FLESH, THE MOTIONS OF SINS, WHICH WERE BY THE LAW, DID WORK IN OUR MEMBERS TO BRING FORTH FRUIT TO DEATH. 6, BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW (in our members – law of sin and death), THAT BEING DEAD WHEREIN WE WERE HELD (sin); THAT WE SHOULD SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.
  
  
• 23, But I SEE ANOTHER LAW IN MY MEMBERS, WARRING AGAINST THE LAW OF MY MIND AND BRINGING ME INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE LAW OF SIN WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS.

Romans 7 is talking about more than one law. 1. The law of marriage being married to the man of sin and unable to remarry until our old man of sin has died before we can be remarried to Christ (Romans 7:1-6). 2. Gods law giving us a knowledge of what sin is when we break it (Romans 7:7-19) and 3. The law of sin and death working in our members (the law of our sinful nature Romans 7:1-6; Romans 7:21-23). Although this has already been posted to you and you simply chose to ignore it.