The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[muhammad_isa]

The Christian belief in the deity of Christ goes back to the apostles..

Purely an assumption.

 

[Soapy]

Lol, so he prays directly to Jesus so it must be an error because you said so! Hilarious the length you will go to to deny the obvious.

And that’s why you will never truly or even at all understand the truth.

You do these things in your daily life and think nothing of it - but when someone shows you the very same thing you baulk and scoff at it … tuh!

What am I talking about? Seeing something out of place and realising there is something wrong.

The Bible scriptures, and especially the New Testament, contains a myriad of altered verses and even additions and deletions from the full and true script. If you are going to believe that it is not so then you are (and you are!) going to be fooled by many things relating to the truth.

There is a verse that claims that ‘GOD CAME IN THE FLESH’. Now everyone [Should] knows that the Greek text does not state that it was ‘GOD’ that came in the flesh. It is Jesus… and even Jesus himself states that GOD SENT him.

There is another verse that claims that there are three in Heaven that testify: Father; Son; and Holy Spirit… In fact the verse is completely false. It is not a verse anywhere in any scriptures because of was added in by the trinitarian translators. It has been highlighted in every Bible where if is written as being non-authentic yet trinitarian still claim it at different times.

There is a claim that Jesus is worshipped in Heaven along with God. Yet there is no verse stating this. The claimed verses only say that Jesus is Praised; Glorified; and Honored along with God. Praise honor and Glory are not worship else everyone on earth is guilty of blasphemy as we all glorify honor and praise someone in humanity at different times. The verse actually states that worship was given to God [only] but so desperate are Trinitarians to claim worship for Jesus that Jesus is included in the worship where it only says God is worshipped: Even after Jesus says that that worship is to God alone.

So, in regard to reading the scriptures - you must read with a mind that searches for inconsistencies and deduce the truth from other parts of scriptures.

The book of Revelation even has Jesus Christ stating that there will be a great punishment for persons who add of remove from the scriptures….

Are you going to say that Jesus was wrong?

Or perhaps you are one of those who would dearly like to alter scriptures for the sake of proving the fallacy of trinity?

It may seem like only a small thing: Did Stephen really pray to Jesus to receive his spirit as he died - even while almighty God (the creator and receiver if spirits) was seated in the presence of a standing Jesus?

And, since Jesus said ‘ASK THE FATHER IN MY NAME’ when you pray…. And the disciples did pray in Jesus’ name TO THE FATHER… what is your argument?

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, it really doesn't !
Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father" i.e. God

He also told people to ask him for healing, and in fact he said that's why he came.

Jesus taught us to pray to “Our Heavenly Father” when He was with us on Earth. But this was before His resurrection. After that, Jesus was regarded as “my Lord and my God”.

Since Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one person, there is no prescription to choose a correct designee when we pray.


“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

We can't " know" Jesus without relationship with him.
Yes, prayer should be made IN JESUS’ NAME. This does not mean we have to add the words “in Jesus name” for God to hear us. In the Bible, doing something in someone’s name means doing it with their approval and in their authority.

Examples of people in the Bible praying to Jesus:
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.

 

[Soapy]

My position is consistent and entirely orthodox.

The Christian belief in the deity of Christ goes back to the apostles and can be justified in scripture.

'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, and denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.' [1 John 2:22,23]

Eternal life is to be found in the Son, which the Father promised. It is, therefore, quite legitimate to say of the risen Jesus, as Thomas said, 'My Lord and my God'.

The denial of Jesus is as ‘HE WHK WAS SENT BY GOD’… it has nothing to do with being ‘deity’:

• “Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
• “Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.”
• “The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
• “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
• “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he [whom he sent], you will indeed die in your sins.”

How much more of Jesus’ own words do you need to convince you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

It may seem like only a small thing: Did Stephen really pray to Jesus to receive his spirit as he died - even while almighty God (the creator and receiver if spirits) was seated in the presence of a standing Jesus?

Of course he did. And you are the one subtracting from scripture.

 

[Soapy]

Purely an assumption.

Do you get the feeling that trinitarian Christian’s are delusional in their beliefs?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you get the feeling that trinitarian Christian’s are delusional in their beliefs?

I wouldn't say deluded .. misguided is a better word.
satan started this business about a 3 in 1 God a long time ago.
satan has been fighting hard for 1800 years to distract us from the true meaning of righteousness.
he wishes for us to destroy ourselves, and armageddon will surely come.

When Jesus appears, they have to listen to him, and if not, they become just part of western culture.
The time is nigh. It won't be long now,
Catastrophes are increasing at an alarming rate.
Climate-change, disease, famine, war..

Almighty God sees all. His plans cannot fail.

 

[pearl]

How much more of Jesus’ own words do you need to convince you?

And therein lies the problem, distinguishing which are the words of Jesus and which are the words put on his lips by those who penned the Gospels.

 

[nPeace]

The Bible scriptures, and especially the New Testament, contains a myriad of altered verses and even additions and deletions from the full and true script. If you are going to believe that it is not so then you are (and you are!) going to be fooled by many things relating to the truth.

There is a verse that claims that ‘GOD CAME IN THE FLESH’. Now everyone [Should] knows that the Greek text does not state that it was ‘GOD’ that came in the flesh. It is Jesus… and even Jesus himself states that GOD SENT him.

There is another verse that claims that there are three in Heaven that testify: Father; Son; and Holy Spirit… In fact the verse is completely false. It is not a verse anywhere in any scriptures because of was added in by the trinitarian translators. It has been highlighted in every Bible where if is written as being non-authentic yet trinitarian still claim it at different times.

There is a claim that Jesus is worshipped in Heaven along with God. Yet there is no verse stating this. The claimed verses only say that Jesus is Praised; Glorified; and Honored along with God. Praise honor and Glory are not worship else everyone on earth is guilty of blasphemy as we all glorify honor and praise someone in humanity at different times. The verse actually states that worship was given to God [only] but so desperate are Trinitarians to claim worship for Jesus that Jesus is included in the worship where it only says God is worshipped: Even after Jesus says that that worship is to God alone.

So, in regard to reading the scriptures - you must read with a mind that searches for inconsistencies and deduce the truth from other parts of scriptures.

The book of Revelation even has Jesus Christ stating that there will be a great punishment for persons who add of remove from the scriptures….

Did you mean to say "Translations of the scriptures, contains a myriad of altered verses and even additions and deletions from the full and true script, because the Bible really does not fit that description.
There are translations of the Bible that have long recognized those texts as spurious, and never used them. Doing so, long before the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.

Why did they recognize those texts as additions, and alterations? They did so, because of comparing manuscripts, some of which omitted verses, and or wordings.

By comparing the manuscripts, they could easilly pinpoint errors.
That's the beauty of having hundreds of manuscripts.
God preserved his word, so that people with sincere hearts would find the truth, as they roved the pages of the scriptures.

How We Got the Bible
THERE is solid evidence that the Bible, the inspired Word of God, has been accurately copied and transmitted down to us. The evidence consists of ancient manuscripts available today—perhaps 6,000 of the entire Hebrew Scriptures or portions of it and some 5,000 of the Christian Scriptures in Greek.

By a comparative study of hundreds of existing Bible manuscripts, scholars have prepared master texts. These printed editions of original-language texts suggest the best readings available while drawing attention to variations that may exist in certain manuscripts. Texts of the Hebrew Scriptures with comparative readings in footnotes have been prepared by such scholars as Ginsburg and Kittel. Included among the master texts of the Christian Greek Scriptures are those published by Westcott and Hort as well as by Nestle and Aland

 

[Soapy]

Of course he did. And you are the one subtracting from scripture.

So when an error is discovered you think the error should remain?

You think that Jesus was wrong to say that man would try to corrupt the scriptures…. And you think that when that corruption is found out it should stand as gospel?

Wow! A corrupt shopkeeper intermittently cheats customers out of change after they purchase an item from his shop…. You discover that your change is wrong … you continue to shop at that same store even knowing that you are being short-changed by deceit??!!

You are so caught up with denying truth that you cannot even see sense in what Jesus Christ says. He warns you that there would be corruption bug you say that there is none!

You turn Jesus Christ into a liar!

You turn ‘YOUR LORD AND GOD’ into a liar!!

 

[Soapy]

And therein lies the problem, distinguishing which are the words of Jesus and which are the words put on his lips by those who penned the Gospels.

Yes, it’s true that that is a problem - but God is the author of the outline of the scriptures and so the truth is in the scriptures - if just has to be discerned from among the relatively few lies and corruptions,

Ivd posted before at length about how to do this. If you are interested I’ll post again but in simplicity it is based on finding at least two other verses that corroborate and override the corruption.

One such verse is where Jesus is said to have claimed that he came down from Heaven to do the Will of God. It is wrapped up around Jesus ‘Being Sent by the Father’.

However, the scriptures says that Jesus was ‘SENT BY GOD’ AFTER he was baptised and tempted in the wilderness. Moreover, Jesus continually states that he is in the world to do the Will of the Father.

Further, to corroborate the ‘doing the Will of the Father’, Jesus always ‘pray the Father’ before doing any miracles - He seeks the approval and power of the fathers Holy Spirit to do the tasks.

And when Jesus is about to go to the Father he does not say that he is ‘GOING BACK’ to the Father: he says only that he is ‘GOING TO THE FATHER’… a first time ‘being with the Father IN HEAVEN’.

The majority of the time, when a trinitarian is asked to justify their claim of Jesus being God, they do not answer the question. It is quite clear why they do not answer. And why should they if they are dedicated to believing the lie?

But the point is that they know they are being deceitful, they think it is fun to be deceitful - but that does bode well for them in the eyes of God:The father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And, if is noticeable that when qualifying truths are shown to them they simply ignore it as if it had not been shown to them. How? Why?

But something someone said to me that makes me understand them is this:

• ‘If they killed Jesus Christ, a man who came telling the truth he heard from God, Himself, why do you think they will believe you who only read it from a book!?’

 

[Soapy]

Seriously, you think God doesn't want you to praise him?
Praise the Lord.

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.
Psalm 150

Still full of incredulous lack of understanding….

Where did I say that God doesn’t desire praising?

Your minds (or even physical) eyes are so weeping with tears at seeing the truth that you cannot read properly what is written to you. I said that BOTH GOD and Jesus Christ receive Praise, Honor, and Glory… but only God receives WORSHIP.

 

[Soapy]

I wouldn't say deluded .. misguided is a better word.
satan started this business about a 3 in 1 God a long time ago.
satan has been fighting hard for 1800 years to distract us from the true meaning of righteousness.
he wishes for us to destroy ourselves, and armageddon will surely come.

When Jesus appears, they have to listen to him, and if not, they become just part of western culture.
The time is nigh. It won't be long now,
Catastrophes are increasing at an alarming rate.
Climate-change, disease, famine, war..

Almighty God sees all. His plans cannot fail.

You are very generous - And honored to be so!

 

[paarsurrey]

Of course..
I find that at most places I go, including Mosques.
satan is everywhere.

..but I don't let that discourage me.

Well it also did not stop me, but JW management did not like it and they requested by our common friends that I should not attend their service in Kingdom Hall.
Regards

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well it also did not stop me, but JW management did not like it and they requested by our common friends that I should not attend their service in Kingdom Hall.
Regards

I try not to start arguments. I would rather rejoice in what we have in common.
Beehives have guarding bees at the entrance..
..to keep out those that don't belong there.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And that’s why you will never truly or even at all understand the truth.

You do these things in your daily life and think nothing of it - but when someone shows you the very same thing you baulk and scoff at it … tuh!

What am I talking about? Seeing something out of place and realising there is something wrong.

The Bible scriptures, and especially the New Testament, contains a myriad of altered verses and even additions and deletions from the full and true script. If you are going to believe that it is not so then you are (and you are!) going to be fooled by many things relating to the truth.

There is a verse that claims that ‘GOD CAME IN THE FLESH’. Now everyone [Should] knows that the Greek text does not state that it was ‘GOD’ that came in the flesh. It is Jesus… and even Jesus himself states that GOD SENT him.

There is another verse that claims that there are three in Heaven that testify: Father; Son; and Holy Spirit… In fact the verse is completely false. It is not a verse anywhere in any scriptures because of was added in by the trinitarian translators. It has been highlighted in every Bible where if is written as being non-authentic yet trinitarian still claim it at different times.

There is a claim that Jesus is worshipped in Heaven along with God. Yet there is no verse stating this. The claimed verses only say that Jesus is Praised; Glorified; and Honored along with God. Praise honor and Glory are not worship else everyone on earth is guilty of blasphemy as we all glorify honor and praise someone in humanity at different times. The verse actually states that worship was given to God [only] but so desperate are Trinitarians to claim worship for Jesus that Jesus is included in the worship where it only says God is worshipped: Even after Jesus says that that worship is to God alone.

So, in regard to reading the scriptures - you must read with a mind that searches for inconsistencies and deduce the truth from other parts of scriptures.

The book of Revelation even has Jesus Christ stating that there will be a great punishment for persons who add of remove from the scriptures….

Are you going to say that Jesus was wrong?

Or perhaps you are one of those who would dearly like to alter scriptures for the sake of proving the fallacy of trinity?

It may seem like only a small thing: Did Stephen really pray to Jesus to receive his spirit as he died - even while almighty God (the creator and receiver if spirits) was seated in the presence of a standing Jesus?

And, since Jesus said ‘ASK THE FATHER IN MY NAME’ when you pray…. And the disciples did pray in Jesus’ name TO THE FATHER… what is your argument?

The scriptures that you claim have been altered are, to my understanding, entirely accurate. It's people like you who cast doubt on authentic prophecy because it doesn't fit your warped theology!

I've already supplied you with numerous examples of scriptures that support the belief that Jesus Christ, as the risen Lord, is worthy of worship and service. None of these scriptures have you been able to explain away.

In case you require a few more examples, let's begin with Ephesians 4:6, which states: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

'Through' can also be translated as 'amongst', and describes the Spirit of the Father as it rested upon Jesus. So the Father, whose Spirit is above (transcendent), has come to dwell amongst his people in Christ, and is also, through baptism in the Holy Spirit, present within the body of Christ, the Church.

It doesn't surprise me that you struggle to understand the idea that Christ Jesus is 'God with us' (lmmanuel). Until you experience the reality of the Holy Spirit, you will not see that redemption is bound up in the coming of God's salvation to earth.

You like to say that Jesus Christ came from God, and that the Spirit is 'of God' but 'not God', but this is a nonsense. The scriptures clearly state that the fulness of the Spirit rested upon Jesus, and this full measure of the Holy Spirit means the life and authority of the Father.

In my book, denying the deity of the Son is a denial of the Saviour that God uses to redeem mankind. All men are sinners, and only God can save. To send anyone who is less than 'God' in Spirit is not to sent a Saviour at all!

 

[Soapy]

The scriptures that you claim have been altered are, to my understanding, entirely accurate. It's people like you who cast doubt on authentic prophecy because it doesn't fit your warped theology!

I've already supplied you with numerous examples of scriptures that support the belief that Jesus Christ, as the risen Lord, is worthy of worship and service. None of these scriptures have you been able to explain away.

In case you require a few more examples, let's begin with Ephesians 4:6, which states: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

'Through' can also be translated as 'amongst', and describes the Spirit of the Father as it rested upon Jesus. So the Father, whose Spirit is above (transcendent), has come to dwell amongst his people in Christ, and is also, through baptism in the Holy Spirit, present within the body of Christ, the Church.

It doesn't surprise me that you struggle to understand the idea that Christ Jesus is 'God with us' (lmmanuel). Until you experience the reality of the Holy Spirit, you will not see that redemption is bound up in the coming of God's salvation to earth.

You like to say that Jesus Christ came from God, and that the Spirit is 'of God' but 'not God', but this is a nonsense. The scriptures clearly state that the fulness of the Spirit rested upon Jesus, and this full measure of the Holy Spirit means the life and authority of the Father.

In my book, denying the deity of the Son is a denial of the Saviour that God uses to redeem mankind. All men are sinners, and only God can save. To send anyone who is less than 'God' in Spirit is not to sent a Saviour at all!

Your rhetoric is full of deception.

You are mixing truth with lies and misquoting what I said. And, I’ve answered every question you asked of me - so yet another lie on your part - nothing new for a trinitarian there!

Jesus came from God - I like to say? I’m saying what Jesus said many times:

• ‘Eternal life depends on them believing in you (Father) the ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT!’
• “The work of God is to believe in him (Jesus Christ) WHOM HE SENT!’

‘God with us’ is the MEANING OF THE TITLE: ‘Emmanuel’… A great hero SENT BY A KING to a besieged citadel might well be announced on his arrival as:

• “He has arrived, our saviour: ‘The king is with us’”

It means that the king has sent support and salvation to that citadel. It certainly does not mean that the hero IS THE KING!!! The hero has been SENT BY THE KING!

And, ‘Unless you believe that I am [the hero’s sent by the king] you will die in your disbelief!’, stresses the hero as the citizens refuse his accept his help imagining that the king had sent a great army - not just one man!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Your rhetoric is full of deception.

You are mixing truth with lies and misquoting what I said. And, I’ve answered every question you asked of me - so yet another lie on your part - nothing new for a trinitarian there!

Jesus came from God - I like to say? I’m saying what Jesus said many times:

• ‘Eternal life depends on them believing in you (Father) the ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT!’
• “The work of God is to believe in him (Jesus Christ) WHOM HE SENT!’

‘God with us’ is the MEANING OF THE TITLE: ‘Emmanuel’… A great hero SENT BY A KING to a besieged citadel might well be announced on his arrival as:

• “He has arrived, our saviour: ‘The king is with us’”

It means that the king has sent support and salvation to that citadel. It certainly does not mean that the hero IS THE KING!!! The hero has been SENT BY THE KING!

And, ‘Unless you believe that I am [the hero’s sent by the king] you will die in your disbelief!’, stresses the hero as the citizens refuse his accept his help imagining that the king had sent a great army - not just one man!

Was Jesus, the man that you believe in, perfectly good and without sin?

 

[pearl]

Yes, it’s true that that is a problem - but God is the author of the outline of the scriptures and so the truth is in the scriptures - if just has to be discerned from among the relatively few lies and corruptions,

I do not question that God is the inspiration of the Gospels through the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus.
Nor do I question that the Gospels present the truth as a whole.

Ivd posted before at length about how to do this. If you are interested I’ll post again but in simplicity it is based on finding at least two other verses that corroborate and override the corruption.

I am not concerned about corruption. The inspired authors wrote with the concern for their individual communities, different places, different concerns to address. The historical context is important in discerning the minor differences between them.

However, the scriptures says that Jesus was ‘SENT BY GOD’ AFTER he was baptised and tempted in the wilderness. Moreover, Jesus continually states that he is in the world to do the Will of the Father.

That's where christology by the authors is apparent. In Mark 'This is my Son', after baptism, however in Mt and Lk Jesus is God's son prior to his baptism, at birth. And in John, the only Gospel that refers to Jesus as God, is again pushed back to pre-existence.

The majority of the time, when a trinitarian is asked to justify their claim of Jesus being God, they do not answer the question. It is quite clear why they do not answer. And why should they if they are dedicated to believing the lie?

Jesus is God's son, never the Father, when we refer to God it is always the Father, not the Son. The Trinity requires demands that one takes into account the historical culture and understanding of the century in which the formula was developed. Were it today, it would be quite different.

 

[Soapy]

The scriptures that you claim have been altered are, to my understanding, entirely accurate. It's people like you who cast doubt on authentic prophecy because it doesn't fit your warped theology!

I've already supplied you with numerous examples of scriptures that support the belief that Jesus Christ, as the risen Lord, is worthy of worship and service. None of these scriptures have you been able to explain away.

In case you require a few more examples, let's begin with Ephesians 4:6, which states: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

'Through' can also be translated as 'amongst', and describes the Spirit of the Father as it rested upon Jesus. So the Father, whose Spirit is above (transcendent), has come to dwell amongst his people in Christ, and is also, through baptism in the Holy Spirit, present within the body of Christ, the Church.

It doesn't surprise me that you struggle to understand the idea that Christ Jesus is 'God with us' (lmmanuel). Until you experience the reality of the Holy Spirit, you will not see that redemption is bound up in the coming of God's salvation to earth.

You like to say that Jesus Christ came from God, and that the Spirit is 'of God' but 'not God', but this is a nonsense. The scriptures clearly state that the fulness of the Spirit rested upon Jesus, and this full measure of the Holy Spirit means the life and authority of the Father.

In my book, denying the deity of the Son is a denial of the Saviour that God uses to redeem mankind. All men are sinners, and only God can save. To send anyone who is less than 'God' in Spirit is not to sent a Saviour at all!

The scriptures clearly state that the fulness of the Spirit rested upon Jesus, and this full measure of the Holy Spirit means the life and authority of the Father.

No to the second part of this claim. The fullness of God rested on Jesus AT HIS ANOINTMENT Baptism - that part is true. But Jesus did not have the AUTHORITY to use the spirit of God WITHOUT THE FATHER’S CONSENT.

For this reason, Jesus was TEMPTED immediately afterwards to see whether he would misuse it. He didn’t.

But also, Jesus REQUESTED AUTHORITY from the Father before using the using of the Father:

• ‘Father, I know you always hear me when I pray [silently for your spirit] but for these people standing here I speak out loud so they do know IT IS YOU WHO IS DOING THE DEED!’’ (John 11:41 & Ephesians 3:20)

I amalgamated Ephesians 3:20 to show that it is the power of God (the spirit of the Father, which you call the Holy Spirit, that is the ACTIONABLE FORCE in the miracles within the person anointed with it:

• “Now to Him [God/Father] who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power [Spirit of God/Father] that is at work within us,”

The Apostles carried out many great works / miracles greater than they could ever imagine after being anointed with the spirit of God/Father at Pentecost. But since they were each of them sinful in some measure they only received portions of the spirit of God/Father. Jesus, as is known, was sinless and received the full measure of the spirit.

But the point is that Jesus FIRST REQUESTED the use of the power of the spirit from the Father. If you think of a Father who has given permission to his beloved Son to use his very powerful car. The good son still says, ‘Father, can I use the car today?’
The car is NOT HIS (the son) So he STILL ‘prays his Father’ for the use of it.

And AUTHORITY… are you perhaps referring to:

• ‘All power and authority has been given to me…!’?

What is the time period in which this was said: Was it not just after Jesus said that ‘ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED (that is, ‘I have given them the word YOU GAVE ME TO GIVE TO THEM!’?

Was this before being born, just after he was born, before the baptism and anointing, after the the trial in the wilderness, or before he died and was resurrected, or after he was taken up to Heaven?