The Mark of the Beast

[IF_u_knew]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the Bible book of Daniel, the various beasts represent successive human kingdoms, or empires. The composite beast of Revelation 13:1, 2 symbolizes the worldwide political system, empowered and controlled by Satan. Those having the mark of the beast proclaim their servitude to the beast. Thus, the mark, whether on the right hand or on the forehead, figuratively speaking, is a symbol that identifies its bearer as one who gives worshipful support to the beast like political systems of the world. Those having the mark give to “Caesar” that which rightly belongs to God. How? By giving worshipful honor to the political state, its symbols, and its military might, to which they look for hope and salvation. [/FONT]​

Well, the NT prophecies are not in regards to the Book of Daniel; though certainly they tried to base theirs *very* loosely on it as they tried to base the whole of the NT very loosely on the Tanakh as a whole.

As far as the prophecies in the NT in detail as you are discussing, I will be honest to tell you, I am not so interested in trying to decipher them as though they are (or will be) fact. I am so glad to be out of that strange way of thinking and do not desire to go back to it. The NT is very strange indeed and that it has an agenda is quite obvious.

 

[gwk230]

All one has to do is use simple logic to see that what Paul was teaching is indeed contrary to what it is the NT claims to be founded on

(the Tanakh). ​

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To say Sha’ul taught against Torah is complete and utter non-sense. You keep your simplistic logic and I’ll keep that which is simply written.​

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2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" And please, feel free to put Colossians 2:14 into context.. it only validates that Paul was over-writing what had already been written in the Tanakh, making up HIS OWN rules and ignoring what God had commanded.. you know, the same God who said He does not change *so that* the sons of Jacob are not consumed.

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Just what part of this is wrong? What “HIS OWN rules” are you talking about? The correct context is easy if you read it through with the verses before and after and not just the one verse. I read it as the “ordinances that was against us” was those laws that one broke and therefore are testimonies against that one until he be made clean again and the “Blotting out” is that which is the record kept of just that infraction. The “nailing it to his stake” is little more than saying that he triumphed over death which is plainly seen with his resurrection from the dead. This is the same as taught by all of the disciples as well as apostles and not just Sha’ul.​

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What is even more strange to me is how the Christians try to dictate to the Jewish how the covenant works when the covenant between Israel and God never had ANYTHING to do with the Gentiles. The commands of that Covenant were not even applicable to the Gentiles …

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I agree with part of this statement. That part is the part of how can one that has nothing to do with the truth teach others, that are themselves outside of the truth, anything? Just because a group of people that call themselves jews say that this and that means this and that doesn’t mean a hill of beans if they are wrong. One has to remember that Yah came to the Gentiles, or rather nations, and chose a peculiar people. So we were all Gentiles from the beginning. There are also converts to the Hebrew culture that accepts the words of Yah and chooses to live by them. Just because one is born a Hebrew doesn’t mean that they are the be all to end all with the knowledge of the Torah. Lest we forget that the Hebrew nation of Yisrael has been a very nasty and abominably pagan worshipping mess in its own right all through history. I say that the covenant is made with whomever agrees to accept it and keeps it, as well with all of that which comes along with it, and all of this in the correct context. Also remember that the Torah states itself that there shall be one law for the natural born Hebrew as well as the one who sojourns among us. ​

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The commands that are given to the Jewish by God concerning THEIR covenant as the Chosen were never and even now are not up for the Gentiles to be re-writing and dictating to them.

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I agree. Just as those that call themselves jewish should not gloat about being something more than anyone else as holding all the marbles. ​

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The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is clearly between the house of Israel, the house of Judah and God. You will not find the Gentiles have been included on that covenant and you will also see that NOTHING of the old covenant was abolished.. it is just a matter of it being written on the heart rather than in stone (meaning, they no longer need serve God out of fear).

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I agree with exception. The part that is between parentheses is hogwash if your definition of the word fear is the same that might be associated with being scared. If you obey then you have revered or reverenced Yah and not because you were scared.​

Truly the cross, an instrument of death and upon which MANY of the Jewish (not just one) were barbarically crucified, is the mark of the *beast* since only savages could revel in and parade around something that caused so much pain to others because they cannot keep 7 commands that separate them from the animals. Just being honest in how I view it based on what is written.

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I am not one who agrees with the Noachide law understanding as some are. I am one who believes most of all of the Torah was given unto Adam and was handed down from generation to generation but man, as he always has, broke the laws continually and Yah sent the flood. The only new command that I see Elohim giving Noach is that of not consuming blood. Now that man was allowed to eat meat, the only stipulation was not to consume the blood. ​

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[IF_u_knew]

To say Sha’ul taught against Torah is complete and utter non-sense. You keep your simplistic logic and I’ll keep that which is simply written.​

Just what part of this is wrong? What “HIS OWN rules” are you talking about? The correct context is easy if you read it through with the verses before and after and not just the one verse. I read it as the “ordinances that was against us” was those laws that one broke and therefore are testimonies against that one until he be made clean again and the “Blotting out” is that which is the record kept of just that infraction. The “nailing it to his stake” is little more than saying that he triumphed over death which is plainly seen with his resurrection from the dead. This is the same as taught by all of the disciples as well as apostles and not just Sha’ul.​

I agree with part of this statement. That part is the part of how can one that has nothing to do with the truth teach others, that are themselves outside of the truth, anything? Just because a group of people that call themselves jews say that this and that means this and that doesn’t mean a hill of beans if they are wrong. One has to remember that Yah came to the Gentiles, or rather nations, and chose a peculiar people. So we were all Gentiles from the beginning. There are also converts to the Hebrew culture that accepts the words of Yah and chooses to live by them. Just because one is born a Hebrew doesn’t mean that they are the be all to end all with the knowledge of the Torah. Lest we forget that the Hebrew nation of Yisrael has been a very nasty and abominably pagan worshipping mess in its own right all through history. I say that the covenant is made with whomever agrees to accept it and keeps it, as well with all of that which comes along with it, and all of this in the correct context. Also remember that the Torah states itself that there shall be one law for the natural born Hebrew as well as the one who sojourns among us.




I agree. Just as those that call themselves jewish should not gloat about being something more than anyone else as holding all the marbles.








I agree with exception. The part that is between parentheses is hogwash if your definition of the word fear is the same that might be associated with being scared. If you obey then you have revered or reverenced Yah and not because you were scared.

I am not one who agrees with the Noachide law understanding as some are. I am one who believes most of all of the Torah was given unto Adam and was handed down from generation to generation but man, as he always has, broke the laws continually and Yah sent the flood. The only new command that I see Elohim giving Noach is that of not consuming blood. Now that man was allowed to eat meat, the only stipulation was not to consume the blood.

Oh geesh! could you have not kept your discussions btw you and Ben? I had only put up the post you are responding to for the "benefit" of someone else I have been in discussions with since first arriving at this forum. *shrugs* Not trying to be rude.. but in all honesty... it *was* just to get under their skin. Before you judge it, you KNOW you won't get that kind of honesty from Paul who refused to admit that he was trying to get under the skin of his fellow Jews, though it was apparent that *was* his intent.

Well, hell.. for the sake of your time, let's see what Paul said to disregard in Colossians 2, shall we?

Ordinances that were regarding the Jewish and NOT the Gentiles, but that he was claiming the Jews were directing toward the Gentiles "out of the blue for no reason":

1. Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
2. or in drink,
3. or in respect of an holyday,
4. or of the new moon,
5. or of the sabbath days (*AHEM*)

These never even applied to us... that was the lie he put into place to try and get the Christians (his new found followers) to give the Jewish People hell long after he was gone.

AHA!

Which are a shadow of things to come... so many times Paul admits that the death and resurrection of Jesus was NOT the completion of anything like Christianity claims and yet he tells the Gentiles to just go ahead and act like they are the bride/adopted of Christ by disregarding the covenant made between Israel and God. Just replace ourselves, the Gentiles, by lip service with the Chosen of God, Israel.. but pay no heed to how God said to join ourselves to the covenant? Strange, no?

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels... huh ? odd again indeed, don't you think? Did you REALLY read this chapter or are you just claiming to have read it? :sarcastic

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, errr... because we *are* living in this world and God said that His Chosen BETTER be subject to them.. Malachi 3:7.

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? So... why even use the foundation, that being the Tanakh, if we are going to claim it all as just being the commandments of men? Take the NT off the Tanakh and let's just call it a day, shall we? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


When WAS it that Paul expected us to worship God?? The flesh is for woshiping the angels (I think.. not really sure *still* what he meant by that), but not for worshiping God? Do not do the things that GOD commanded through His servants?? Personally, I think this IS Life and afterward is death, so when AM I supposed to worship God? When I can not worship Him any longer??... that being when I am put it into the ground.. then, I can worship Him when it is no longer available to me to do so? The physical is a manifestation of the spiritual... I personally will take my chances to obey the commands in the Tanakh to join myself to the covenant now.. while I still have breath in my lungs to do so. Those who choose to wait.. good luck. Dead men do not resurrect in the way that you all are hoping they will. :no:

 

[AK4]

I guess im back. I guess i should say hi first. Hi, long time no speak.

All one has to do is use simple logic to see that what Paul was teaching is indeed contrary to what it is the NT claims to be founded on (the Tanakh).

No. the "NT" is not just founded on the Tanak. Jesus and the Apostles writings on based on the WHOLE "OT". Did ya miss this verse or something....

Lu 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Almost all the NT is a second witness to the OT prophesies or the prophesies spoken by Jesus.

Mt 18:16 - ... that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (is this not in the "OT" also) and

2Pe 1:20 - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private (own) interpretation.


I wonder why Malachi, the last book in the so called "old testament," put out such a clear warning against turning away from the ordinances of God if what Paul taught was truly right...

For instance, Malachi 3:7 says, "....ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. and this right after the promise that the LORD does not change; and yet Paul says in Colosssians 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" And please, feel free to put Colossians 2:14 into context.. it only validates that Paul was over-writing what had already been written in the Tanakh, making up HIS OWN rules and ignoring what God had commanded.. you know, the same God who said He does not change *so that* the sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Given that Paul said the handwriting of the ordinances are taken out of the way and nailed to the cross and the LORD clearly is not "happy" about this, what Ben proposed, the mark of the beast being the cross is certainly the most logical conclusion one can arrive to.


Does God change? or better stated did He change when He said....


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake

Do you believe this scripture or not? Did God change? To the carnal mind it would seem this but the truth of the matter He didnt change because He knows the end from the beginning and counts things in the future as if already done...(Isa 46:10)


Tell me is Paul talking about the Ten commandments or talking about all the tedious sacrifices and traditions (mostly man-made) that niether them nor their forefathers could keep. Context, context, context right, well do you see verses 15-22 what was nailed to the cross. This has nothing to do with the commandments.

What is even more strange to me is how the Christians try to dictate to the Jewish how the covenant works when the covenant between Israel and God never had ANYTHING to do with the Gentiles. The commands of that Covenant were not even applicable to the Gentiles


oh really do you have scripture do back this? And why will the gentiles be considered His people before they will be His people? And why would the gentiles be the ones to lead them back to their own God? (strange huh?)


and thus, Paul lied to you, making you think it was and since you all did not keep those commands (der!), you were in need of a literal blood sacrifice, which you accepted in the way of a Jewish man on a cross. And so, you still remain in ignorance because of the cross and all the lies that have stemmed from it. The only commands given to the Gentiles are the 7 commands given by God to mankind, found in Genesis 9.


Please show me where these 7 commands are that are said to be to the gentiles or to anyone. Its funny how many people have been utterly duped by words of men (the jewish people) that aint even there. 3 things are commanded there....

1. BE FRUITFUL & MULTIPLY
2. DONT EAT THE BLOOD OF ANIMALS
3. DONT KILL ONE ANOTHER

Please show me these falsified, non-existing noahide laws.

This is very well addressed by Paul in this statement...


20 If you have died with Christ ..., why, ...do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? (noahide laws)23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.


They are common sense commands that separate man from the animals.. and if those are SO hard to keep that one needs a covering for not doing them, well what conclusion can be drawn except that you are a beast?


You're right!!!! those 3 commands stated above are common sense. To believe in those noahide, man-made, not from God, false, fictitious, etc, etc laws thought up by evil despicable men makes one a beast <-----if you really knew what is a beast is as defined in scripture you would see how right i am

Truly the cross, an instrument of death and upon which MANY of the Jewish (not just one) were barbarically crucified, is the mark of the *beast* since only savages could revel in and parade around something that caused so much pain to others because they cannot keep 7 commands that separate them from the animals. Just being honest in how I view it based on what is written. :cover:

i wont hold my breath waiting to see these supposedly 7 commands that is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the WORD in Gen 9 (or even before Gen 9) and not in MANS (jewish) interpretation like THE (evil) TALMUD which God clearly warns against ----the adding and subtracting from His Word.

 

[IF_u_knew]

I guess im back. I guess i should say hi first. Hi, long time no speak.

And the person to whom my post was intended!! HI! I am very glad you are back.. was getting rather worried about you, ya know.

No. the "NT" is not just founded on the Tanak. Jesus and the Apostles writings on based on the WHOLE "OT". Did ya miss this verse or something....

But you know how I feel about using the NT to prove the NT claims... don't you? It doesn't work that way... Isaiah said that the end is already declared from the beginning.

Does God change? or better stated did He change when He said....

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake

Do you believe this scripture or not? Did God change? To the carnal mind it would seem this but the truth of the matter He didnt change because He knows the end from the beginning and counts things in the future as if already done...(Isa 46:10)

I believe that man's understanding changes. The New Covenant did not change anything that is in the old Covenant.. simply that the Law of God would be written on their hearts and rather than serving God out of fear, they would serve Him out of duty.. a sense of honor to God, so to speak.

oh really do you have scripture do back this? And why will the gentiles be considered His people before they will be His people? And why would the gentiles be the ones to lead them back to their own God? (strange huh?)

Actually yes, there is a Scripture to support my view, but certainly to say that a Gentile can not be the one to lead a Jew back to their own God is not what I meant. Still, here ya go: Jeremiah 10:2 (and to read all of Jeremiah is to see who it is he considers the heathen *eeks*)

Any Gentile that seeks to convert a Jew to Christianity is walking on thin ground in my opinion. Leading them AWAY from God (that is toward Christianity) can not be considered leading them BACK to THEIR God. Christians should leave well enough.. if ya have to be a missionary.. go to the "heathen" nations and do not touch the Chosen of God... if they are wrong (which obviously they are not), God will deal with them, no? Why so much effort as of lately to convert them to the false teachings? It is a bit unnerving if you ask me.

You're right!!!! those 3 commands stated above are common sense. To believe in those noahide, man-made, not from God, false, fictitious, etc, etc laws thought up by evil despicable men makes one a beast <-----if you really knew what is a beast is as defined in scripture you would see how right i am

The last time we talked, I think you were going to share this "revelation" you had with me... perhaps now would be an appropriate time?

i wont hold my breath waiting to see these supposedly 7 commands that is SPECIFICALLY STATED in the WORD in Gen 9 (or even before Gen 9) and not in MANS (jewish) interpretation like THE (evil) TALMUD which God clearly warns against ----the adding and subtracting from His Word.

Well, why not just read for your own self?

By the way, next time, don't go so long without leaving a word that you are okay :no:.

 

[IF_u_knew]

AK4, someone elsewhere was asking me to clarify the commands and considering they are inferred in Genesis 9 and not directly stated (which makes it difficult for some to be able to grasp), I figured I would post for you as well:

1. Do not commit adultry.
2. Do not eat the flesh from off of the living animals (do watch animal planet? you know the scenes where, say a lion attacks a live zebra and is eating it before it dies?.. well, we are not supposed to behave like that).
3. Do not shed man's blood *AHEM*
4. Do not commit blasphemy
5. No idolatry.
6. Establish courts of Justice.
7. Do not commit robbery.

There they are... again, you can see these *are* in Genesis 9, though they are inferred. Why did God establish the testimony in Jacob and the Law in Israel? Because they are smart and though these commands are not directly stated in Genesis 9, it is obvious they are inferred.. leave it to the Jewish to be able to clarify it for the rest of us, no? These are the commands given to mankind and as I said, they are common sense... that we would need someone to have been killed to cover our guilt for not doing these is really only saying that we can not behave as anything other than animals. Is that the impression you wish to give off of yourself? I hope not.

You're right!!!! those 3 commands stated above are common sense. To believe in those noahide, man-made, not from God, false, fictitious, etc, etc laws thought up by evil despicable men makes one a beast

When I came back to clarify these commands for you, I saw that I may have misunderstood this... Seriously... this is why I say, since you think these things are false, fictitious, etc.. coming from evil, despicable men, TAKE THE NT OFF THE TANAKH (not yelling, only emphasizing.. dramatically ) and quit using the words of the "evil despicable men" to support your beliefs!! The Jewish were NEVER imposing the Law of their covenant between God and Israel on the Gentiles.. that was PAUL! The Jewish way according to the Tanakh that they believe is Divinely inspired is that if you want to join the covenant between Israel and God, you have to do it as it was set up by God.. else, don't!! It is so simple... that grown adults can not understand this is quite pathetic.

I can not understand how the NT is believed because OF the Tanakh (as christians claim yet are not able to prove), yet in the next breath, it is said the Tanakh is man-made traditions, commands, etc that are evil and awful!! Follow after Paul.. but quit claiming that Paul had any basis for his teachings in the evil, awful Tanakh and its "evil, awful" God!! Just call it what it is.. a completely separate religion. What is there not to get in regards to what I am saying? Paul made up a covenant for the Gentiles that makes them the special chosen of him (Paul).. so, just go with it and quit blaming the Jewish that they chose to serve God as He commanded wholly... meaning submission to the Laws fully including the judgments of God. Be happy with your covenant of Death that is between you and Paul which allows for you to perceive yourself as escaping a ficticious punishment and gaining the status of God (because only God is eternal Life) while at the same time being able to negate His ways. :yes:

Tell me is Paul talking about the Ten commandments or talking about all the tedious sacrifices and traditions (mostly man-made) that niether them nor their forefathers could keep. Context, context, context right, well do you see verses 15-22 what was nailed to the cross. This has nothing to do with the commandments.

And this, I had missed as well. The 10 commandments were for the Jews and not the Gentiles. For instance, the Sabbath Day.. that is for the Jews to observe, not the Gentiles. Which by the way, let's consider this, shall we? You make it sound as if Paul was not anti-the 10 commandments.. meaning he did not negate those for the Gentiles, right? This is what it appears you are saying. So.. the 10 commandments - good... and yet, as I have shown above in my reply to the other poster, in Colossians 2, Paul even negates the Sabbath day (see my #5 and go read up on what Paul has to say in Col 2). So, YES.... he was even disregarding the 10 commandments both where the Jewish were concerned and where the Gentiles were concerned (even though the 10 commandments were never meant to be imposed on the Gentiles... confused yet? Good for Paul then.. he succeeded in his mission!).

What Paul did was make sure to get everyone all nice and confused and then guilt you all for not observing what never applied to you in the first place.. thus, in this way, all blame in your eyes would fall upon the Jews... case and point: YOUR POSTS!!!

Again.. if these are all man-made commands and traditions that you do not feel relevant to your life.. FINE!! Quit using what you are claiming is false to support your beliefs. It is hypocritical and quite frankly, only makes you appear as though you are seething with jealousy. Are you, AK4?

 

[AK4]

And the person to whom my post was intended!! HI! I am very glad you are back.. was getting rather worried about you, ya know.

Intend?!! Sounds as if you were missing me.. Eh i just dont do much posting anymore really. I am trying to get my interest in doing it back up again though

But you know how I feel about using the NT to prove the NT claims... don't you? It doesn't work that way... Isaiah said that the end is already declared from the beginning.

Yeah i know. I read what i put and i see how rusty i am. Add on that i was at work too with my boss possibly over my shoulder.

I believe that man's understanding changes. The New Covenant did not change anything that is in the old Covenant.. simply that the Law of God would be written on their hearts and rather than serving God out of fear, they would serve Him out of duty.. a sense of honor to God, so to speak.

I agree it didnt change anything. God.....(oh by the way i notice you were actually spelling out God in your posts now. CONGRATULATIONS really!!! I am happy to see that)....anyway God didnt say He was going to make a new covenant with new laws (this is where christainity has distorted the real truths of God and actually Paul addressed this in Romans i believe). No it is the same law but only it will be eventually put into all of mankinds hearts, not just the jewish people. Not one set of laws for the jews and some made up noahide laws for the gentiles.

Actually yes, there is a Scripture to support my view, but certainly to say that a Gentile can not be the one to lead a Jew back to their own God is not what I meant. Still, here ya go: Jeremiah 10:2 (and to read all of Jeremiah is to see who it is he considers the heathen *eeks*)

Ok, but you did say that the commands were not to the gentiles but only to the jews right? Look at verse 7. He is the King of all nations and all nations (which symbolically nations represents individual people i.e. you are a nation, i am a nation). The Lord is King of all and all will be under one law, rule and authority. There will not be a set of laws for some and a set that is different for others.

Also notice this scripture to contrast Jer 10:2.

Eze 16:47 -You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.

Do you believe this doesnt apply today? read this site and tell me all these abominations they practice is Gods ways. Judaism 101

Any Gentile that seeks to convert a Jew to Christianity is walking on thin ground in my opinion. Leading them AWAY from God (that is toward Christianity) can not be considered leading them BACK to THEIR God. Christians should leave well enough.. if ya have to be a missionary.. go to the "heathen" nations and do not touch the Chosen of God... if they are wrong (which obviously they are not), God will deal with them, no? Why so much effort as of lately to convert them to the false teachings? It is a bit unnerving if you ask me.

Its funny and ironic In actuality because if one truly believed in the soveriegnty of God, "christains" and others should be well aware they themselves cannot convert someone. It is God who does it. And as the scripture says "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe". I dont think most people understand that verse coupled with many many others to know what that means. Im not going to list them right now but my main point was notice the irony of what God does.

1.He calls someone to Him Joh 14:6 Joh 6:44 Mt 22:14 Matt. 11:27
2.That person is to join some kind church and learn the basics and the half truth or straight out false doctrines and teachings
3. Then He tells them to come out of that church/beliefs/doctrines/babylon Re 18:4. Basically you go in to a babylon and come out and really learn and apply the real truths of God and start producing real fruit/become a good tree.

The last time we talked, I think you were going to share this "revelation" you had with me... perhaps now would be an appropriate time?

Indeed it was a "revelation" from the Father to be able to see who and what Jesus really is. To be able to throw out all the garbage of the trinity and what i these churches and religions teach that i thought was truth all them years. It was truly a miracle really and honestly i didnt do any of it, it was all of God. A casting out of demons or better stated in these verses
Mt 15:9 - Mr 7:7 -Col 2:22 1Ti 4:1
Tell me what specifically would you like to know and maybe the Lord will give me the ability to plainly speak it to you and you the understanding and eyes and ears to hear it.
But first you have know and really understand this major major truth---

Well, why not just read for your own self?

Believe me, i have and was shocked about what is the truth behind judaism and the talmud and mishnrah and all the superstitions, idolatries, "sorceries", worshipping of stars, psychics, numerology, etc etc etc i could just keep going. And "they" are supposed to be the ones who know the truths of God? EEEEEh i dont think so.

By the way, next time, don't go so long without leaving a word that you are okay :no:.

:sorry1:Sorry i will try not to. Life hit me pretty hard lately. Thanks for caring,

 

[AK4]

I dont i much time today but i will comment on what i can and pick up tomorrow. Also i can see you still think of me as a "traditional christain" who believes all that mainstream gobblety-gook. Tsk tsk.

AK4, someone elsewhere was asking me to clarify the commands and considering they are inferred in Genesis 9 and not directly stated (which makes it difficult for some to be able to grasp), I figured I would post for you as well:

1. Do not commit adultry.
2. Do not eat the flesh from off of the living animals (do watch animal planet? you know the scenes where, say a lion attacks a live zebra and is eating it before it dies?.. well, we are not supposed to behave like that).
3. Do not shed man's blood *AHEM*
4. Do not commit blasphemy
5. No idolatry.
6. Establish courts of Justice.
7. Do not commit robbery.

There they are... again, you can see these *are* in Genesis 9, though they are inferred.

Inferred is the key word there. We know what He has to say about mans wisdom so i wont go there.

Why did God establish the testimony in Jacob and the Law in Israel? Because they are smart and though these commands are not directly stated in Genesis 9, it is obvious they are inferred.. leave it to the Jewish to be able to clarify it for the rest of us, no?

No you should leave up to God to clarify it for you. As it is written " they all will be taught of God" and no if the "jews" of today or yesterday were taught of God were actually teaching the true ways of God, do you think in there own religion there would be as many divisions in judaism as it is in christainity? Come now think.


These are the commands given to mankind and as I said, they are common sense... that we would need someone to have been killed to cover our guilt for not doing these is really only saying that we can not behave as anything other than animals. Is that the impression you wish to give off of yourself? I hope not.

I can see with this comment you dont know what was the whole purpose God created mankind the way it is now and then what we are to become. In a nutshell He created us spiritually weak so we can experience evil (this world right now) so that when He judges the world and set everything right and everything good we would appreciate it. Therefore you wouldnt understand that the Potter made His pots this way purposely and to atone for them He died for them.

Furthermore to believe that the blood of countless animals to atone for your sins is better than believing your God actually truly loves all His creation and MADE (*ahem*)
Him a Son to come and be THE sacrifice once and for all for His creation is more obsurd to me. But to each there own, but i still believe my belief shows a more loving and caring God, dont you?

When I came back to clarify these commands for you, I saw that I may have misunderstood this... Seriously... this is why I say, since you think these things are false, fictitious, etc.. coming from evil, despicable men, TAKE THE NT OFF THE TANAKH (not yelling, only emphasizing.. dramatically ) and quit using the words of the "evil despicable men" to support your beliefs!!

Sorry, you cant take away the any of the Word of God and still know God. So whether one calls it the tanakh, the law, OT, NT, etc etc the original Words of God cannot be taken away.

The Jewish were NEVER imposing the Law of their covenant between God and Israel on the Gentiles.. that was PAUL!

Really? cus that contradicts Acts 15 and that conference.

The Jewish way according to the Tanakh that they believe is Divinely inspired is that if you want to join the covenant between Israel and God, you have to do it as it was set up by God.. else, don't!! It is so simple... that grown adults can not understand this is quite pathetic.

Exactly and what is said of in those noahide laws is only inferred as you say

I can not understand how the NT is believed because OF the Tanakh (as christians claim yet are not able to prove), yet in the next breath, it is said the Tanakh is man-made traditions, commands, etc that are evil and awful!!

No the man-made traditions etc. are like some of the stuff that is stated in that site i told you to check out.

I will have to finish tomorrow and further explain these things. Im out of time gotta pick up the kids from school.

See ya:run:

 

[IF_u_knew]

Intend?!! Sounds as if you were missing me.. Eh i just dont do much posting anymore really. I am trying to get my interest in doing it back up again though

I was worried...:yes: I am sure, as well, that Ben missed having us take over his threads with our thrilling back & forth exchanges *said sarcastically*.

God.....(oh by the way i notice you were actually spelling out God in your posts now. CONGRATULATIONS really!!! I am happy to see that)

Now now, I was not happy to do it, mind you. I only trained myself to not do it because I did not like that it was being made the focal point by so many to deter from the fact that they were not able to argue with the truth I was placing before them.. *ahem*

I agree it didnt change anything. ....anyway God didnt say He was going to make a new covenant with new laws (this is where christainity has distorted the real truths of God and actually Paul addressed this in Romans i believe). No it is the same law but only it will be eventually put into all of mankinds hearts, not just the jewish people. Not one set of laws for the jews and some made up noahide laws for the gentiles.

This is not what it says in Jeremiah 31:31... there is not a mention of Gentiles there. I am not a Jew myself, ya know.. so, it is NOT like I am being biased here. I am only calling it for what it says. Read that passage and without adding ANY interpretations to it whether of your own or of another, tell me in all honesty, who is it is addressing?

There is no reason to go to Paul for interpretations... we are not children, but rather grown adults who should be capable of reading what is there and not buying into the power of suggestions, no?


I am not saying that a Gentile can not be called of God to join to the Chosen... but it will have to be via Isaiah 56... to the Person truly called out by God, every trial, every hardship, every roadblock will only serve to strengthen their character, their love for the Chosen People (for through the difficulties, they will find they relate more and more with the accounts of the Israelites in the Tanakh), and especially it will strengthen their love for the Laws of God which will become their most precious gift from God for it serves as the Truthful Guide back home.... and through it all they will prize what it is they have learned about God and even their own self.

Don't you see?? There is such Beauty in the ways of God; what He established as the path to join to the covenant is not to be despised and used as a tool for judgment against His People who keep that way as they were commanded to.. it is a mirror to our ownselves... a tool that is used TO write His Laws upon our hearts so that we never again are led astray by the illusions. :cloud9:

Also notice this scripture to contrast Jer 10:2.

Eze 16:47 -You not only walked in their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.

I love Ezekiel 16.. it was the first chapter that I read when I picked my Bible back up from where I had thrown almost a year earlier... So many of you read that and say, "Look at how evil Israel is! Shame on them for whoring around on God.. blah blah blah"... I read that and feel overwhelming love for Israel.. that they would be honest not only before God, but before the world in sharing what most would try to keep secret.... I can only express my thankfulness that their honesty and what you and others consider their "failings" have become lessons for me to relate to. That the author was Divinely Inspired to write with such intensity and emotion.... that God continued and still continues even now to chastise them and others who He is calling to join themselves to be a part of the People of Israel... Truly He is the God of the Living. Concerning the above and concerning the below: YOu will not find judgment pass my lips for the Chosen People of God. :no:

Do you believe this doesnt apply today? read this site and tell me all these abominations they practice is Gods ways. Judaism 101

God will always correct what needs correct among His People.. this is part of the condition to the covenant between Israel and God... they have submitted to living and being subjected to His judgments as it is called for. You nor I have any need to try to play the role of God... He is effective in His ways, don't you think?

Its funny and ironic In actuality because if one truly believed in the soveriegnty of God, "christains" and others should be well aware they themselves cannot convert someone. It is God who does it. And as the scripture says "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe". I dont think most people understand that verse coupled with many many others to know what that means. Im not going to list them right now but my main point was notice the irony of what God does.

Paul sure did love to speak about "foolishness".. even admitting to being a fool his own self... and EVEN saying that the foolishness in God is more wise than the wisdom of man... the error in that statement is in having said that there *is* foolishness in God.
Proverbs 3:35 "The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools"
Proverbs 9:6 "Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding."

That barely even scratches the surface of what is said about fools and foolishness, both of which Paul promoted. Again, it does make me wonder what it is he had in mind regarding his command to shut the mouths of the Jews seeing that he was teaching people to be fools and fools do not have the knowledge to shut the mouths of the wise and therefore.. well, really, one only has to look at history to see how the command was taken by the christians... there just was no other way to silence the Truth except by intimidations and violence.

But first you have know and really understand this major major truth---
Believe me, i have and was shocked about what is the truth behind judaism and the talmud and mishnrah and all the superstitions, idolatries, "sorceries", worshipping of stars, psychics, numerology, etc etc etc i could just keep going. And "they" are supposed to be the ones who know the truths of God? EEEEEh i dont think so.

I have the Laws of God and the Testimonies and really.. all else is not NEEDED. Still, you need to let go of this issue you have with the Talmud.. I have found so many delightful insights contained therein. It is not something I need in the way that I need the Tanakh, but I honestly am having a hard time believing that you really have given it much of a chance outside of your sordid ideas that no doubt have come from the opinions of others.

In Genesis 49, it is said where the Chosen will be gathered.. the name is JUDAH.. wha-la Juda-ism. That there may be individuals within Judaism who have gone over to mysticism is not going to deter me from obeying the Word of God my ownself. I am not their judge.. I am only in control of how I am before God. I trust that God will deal with what is not acceptable to Him IF it is not acceptable to Him.

They ARE the Chosen of God and they ARE submitted to the judgments of God.. so let God deal with that and you deal with following the Truth for your ownself and not denying it because you think someone else is.

Sorry i will try not to. Life hit me pretty hard lately. Thanks for caring,

I understand... I am just VERY glad to see you back... even if you are being stubborn regarding the Truth! :angel2:

 

[gwk230]

Not everyone understands the way you do. This is the Christian way to promote Replacement Theology by using a Jew to make Judaism absolete in the eyes of the world.

I could care less what the so called christians use or don&#8217;t use. You seem to be completely fixated on it though. Replacement Theology? The so called christians are not the only ones to play that game. There are a bunch of sons of Yefet that have claimed to be jews for close to over 1,500 years now. I say that anyone that has added to or taken away from the true word of Yah has in fact practiced &#8220;Replacement Theology&#8221;. It is written that the sons of Yefet shall live in the tents of Shem until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. That time hasn&#8217;t ended as yet and I firmly believe that Yefet is still in those tents of Shem. To say otherwise is complete and total ignorance.

What do you mean, that Christ is the end of Torah? No, the Torah aims at the People of Israel as the collective Messiah, according to Isaiah.

No Ben, your understanding is in error. It is as we Hebrews call &#8220;Chatta&#8217;ah&#8221; or rather &#8220;Missing the mark&#8221;. What is Torah but instructions for life? What is its purpose? What is it for? If all were righteous then would there be a need for Torah? If the Moshiach is perfect by the standards of the Torah then by what measure does the Moshiach need the Torah? If Moshiach is to make all righteous then Torah would then be accomplished and there would be no more need for it because there is no more sin, correct? Then The goal and aim for the Torah is the Moshiach.

As I can see, it takes a rocket scientist to make you see that Jesus was not the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. The way you speak of Jesus' sacrifice, that's the impression it causes.

Look Ben, I have repeatedly acknowledged the many deaths in the world up to and including all the others that died there in Yisrael at the hands of the Romans. Theirs were their own deaths and for their own purposes but Yahshua&#8217;s death had a specific purpose by the will of Yah. He was Yah&#8217;s sacrifice. I&#8217;m beginning to believe that it may very well take a brain surgeon to get you to understand this as well as the fact that I am not belittling or demeaning the deaths of all the others. For one to say and think otherwise is just plain soddish.

I don't need you to evaluate my intelligence. If a former Jew shows up in Jerusalem preaching that another Jew was son of God without an earthly father, that's apostasy, because there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

Well when you take it upon yourself to &#8220;assume&#8221; something about someone without having your so called ducks in a row then it tends to lead people in the direction of questioning your intelligence, Ben, whether you think you need it or not. If your fishing for info, why don&#8217;t you just do us all a great service and stop doing yourself such a large disservice and just simply ask the question and one might just simply answer you. Its not that hard Ben.

I know that there are those who believe such nonsense but I am not one of them. Yahshua most definitely, and most certainly, had an earthly father.

Jesus did not come to confirm "traditions of men" down to the letter. He meant Torah in Matthew 5:19. And with regards to this fairy tale of the Temple veil being torn from top to bottom, that's exactly what it is: Fairy tale.

Ben, why are you quoting Matt 5:19 when we all know that this has nothing to do with the so called &#8220;Traditions of Man&#8221; Yahshua confirmed those nasty little traditions of men when he addressed those who practiced them.

Mar 7:5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why don't your disciples walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with unwashed hands?"
Mar 7:6 He answered them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 But in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 "For you set aside the commandment of Elohim, and hold tightly to the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and you do many other such things."
Mar 7:9 He said to them, "Full well do you reject the commandment of Elohim, that you may keep your tradition.

So Ben, you go ahead and stick to your traditions and I&#8217;ll stick to those given at Sinai.

Fairy tale? Hey, whatever makes your boat float Ben. I only have what is written by Matthew, Mark and Luke and you have little more than your word. I&#8217;ll stick with them.

And God's Word was granted to Israel only, and to no other people on earth according to Psalm 147:19,20.

Yes Ps 147:19-20 does state this but it is in no way implying that just because a group of people were chosen to make a covenant with Yah, as was Adam, Noach, Abraham, David etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. that it was just for them and no one else could be a part of it? You know I&#8217;m going to throw a bunch of scripture at you like a wall of fire if you say yes.
Just a little tid-bit comes to mind in Isaiah 56 if I&#8217;m not mistaken.

Isa 56:6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to YAH, to minister to him, and to love the name of YAH, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
Isa 56:7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
Isa 56:8 YAH Elohim, who gathers the outcasts of Yisra'el, says, Yet will I gather [others] to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Jesus was not a moron to know that the ancient Ten Tribes did not exist. You make a moron out of him by setting him looking for those lost Tribes in Israel. He meant the Israel of his time, period.

Who said anything about the lost ten tribes? Come on man pay attention. We know that he was speaking only of those poor individuals that were lost by all the confusion set forth by those that held those traditions of men over that of the word of Yah. These poor people haven&#8217;t a clue just how simplistic the word is without all that mess that those with power added which made such a heavy laden yoke around their necks. He exposed all that nastiness. He was the first and only teacher of Torah that has ever been raised up since the Torah was first given.

 

[gwk230]

Me too. Believe me, it's indeed a rib cracking to think that an adult, if you are an adult, believe that God allowed or not the Israelites to adopt a pagan rite. Who said that God had anything to do with that? Moses was the one who figured that slavish mentality could never understand that God, being incorporeal, the truest way to worship Him was in spirit. As I can see, you have too anthropomorphic an idea of God.

Ben your really out there aren&#8217;t you? I can&#8217;t agree with this garbage. There is no way that Yah would allow such abominations to occur for His observances. These were His ways and not that of mortal man. Moshe wrote what Yah conveyed unto him. There was an exception that dealt with the writing of divorce but in no way would he have dreamed up a pagan ritual of blood sacrifice and it be allowed and accepted by Yah. Yah gave those commands and no other. For anyone to say otherwise shows brain damage.

What did Paul do to defend himself of the accusations if they were false? Nothing. Silence is a confession of guilt. On the contrary, he accepted the suggestion to camouflage himself as an observer of the Law in the Temple and fake that he was also fulfilling the Law. (Acts 21:24) We all know that he had no vow to fulfill. He was advised to join other four guys whe had to fulfill a vow in order to avoid a scandal in the Temple if someone recognized him. James and the Elders asked him to do that because they remembered what had happened 14 years before when Paul was nearly killed for preaching apostasy in Jerusalem. But since God is not to mock, some Asiatic Jews recognized him and arrested him. (Acts 21:27,28) The point here is that he was indeed guilt of teaching the Jews to abandon Moses, which was his way to declare that the Torah was over and obsolete.

Again, Sha&#8217;ul didn&#8217;t need to defend himself to those that already knew the lies that were being past around. What is written is not just the account that was given by Sha&#8217;ul but by Kefa as well as Barnabas. They stated how the Ruach Ha Chodesh entered into those that were not circumcised and did do wondrous works just as it had happened unto all of them. They clearly weren&#8217;t going to blaspheme the Ruach Ha Chodesh so they accepted it as it applied to the Gentiles. There is no proof that Sha&#8217;ul ever taught the Hebrews not to circumcise. That&#8217;s total swine sewage.

What is this, are you jealous or surprised that finally someone has decided to rain on your parade of misconceptions? That's over my friend, you can no longer go on using a Jew to teach the world that Greek Mythology is possible in Judaism.

Oh so you decline even when you offered? Could it be possible that its because you really couldn&#8217;t show us anything that might show some measure of wisdom or knowledge of scripture to begin with. Am I jealous? Of you? Hardly. Am I surprised? You know, I used to be amazed, and now I&#8217;m just amused. What I have seen here is only typical of those that profess to be the chosen one&#8217;s. I really have little to no knowledge of the so called Greek Mythology and wouldn&#8217;t begin to acknowledge what you are inferring. If by a little educated deduction that it have anything to do that some do as others do so there for they are the same is not going to work. The same has been said of the Torah with Hammurabi for countless ages.

Read Galatians 1:6- 9. Paul had robbed the Nazarenes of their Galatian synagogue, and they had sent some envoys to try to recover it; and in fact, some were getting persuaded and deserting Paul, who was amazed himself that they would so soon desert him to go back to the other gospel. Do you have any idea what gospel he was referring to? If I told you, you would not understand. The blinders are too tight on your eyes. Read the quotation if you want to know. He was so hostile to the gospel of the Nazarenes that he would curse even an angel who came down from Heaven with a different gospel from his.

Rubbish.

As I have only used what is written, and have not used any so called logic as deducing anything that was written by my own thoughts and feelings through some dreamed up commentary, it is clear to one who only reads the text, in its correct context, that what you have so stated is false and misleading. It goes against all other writings of text through out the scriptures.

The epistle to the Galatians, as a whole, is no more than a continuation on the question about the Gentiles and circumcision.

You don't even quote what you say above in the hope that I don't know your NT. But you are mistaken about me and wrong about what you read. The letter or message devised by the Counsel in Jerusalem was trusted on Judas and Silas and not on Paul. They knew that Paul would use it for toilet paper. And the recommendations to the brothers of Gentile origin was nothing more than the Noahite laws. Why if they had become Jewish when they had converted? Because those at the Nazarene Counsel had decided to cut their losses and let them follow Paul. It means that they, from then on, considered them back to their condition of Gentiles. And that's what Paul wanted anyways. (Acts 15:25-29)

Oop&#8217;s my bad. I do have to admit as a man of honesty that you are correct as to whom the letter was entrusted to. But lets also see where Yacob said that they were sent along with their beloved Barnabas and Sha&#8217;ul. The rest of what you say isn&#8217;t written anywhere and is only your own thoughts and feelings as to what you would have liked to see happen for your own agenda.

I will answer your question if you answer mine first. "Why is that you must continue to spread falsehoods about Jesus? Jesus was a Jewish man. Why do you have to spread the lies of the NT that he was like a Greek demigod? Why do you have to spill mud in the reputation of his mother by saying that being she married had a child who was not of her husband? Ponder!

What falsehoods have I spoken of Yahshua Ha Moshiach?
How have I implied that Yahshua was like a Greek demigod?
Where is she having her reputation mudded? Where by the standard of Torah has she sinned? She had laid with no man. You have no proof. The seed that she received was from the Ruach Ha Chodesh that came from David himself. It was placed in her without any carnal and fleshly act that you are so fixated on. She had done no wrong as was blameless. If anyone has mudded her reputation then it is you by insinuating that what had happened was by the hand of a man. How dare you.

 

[gwk230]

Behold another of Paul's lies! We can see only too well that he was lying to the Galatians, because according to Acts 15:7, Peter himself declared that he had been the one selected to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul's luck is that Peter was not there to discredit him for saying something that was not true about Peter, who had never been assigned as the emissary of the circumcision but of the uncircumcision. Paul only loved to say that he would go to the Gentiles and never left the Jews in peace, since the synagogues of Damascus (Acts 9:2) and until his last station in Rome. (Acts 28:17) Perhaps he thought that Gentiles were to be found in the synagogues of the Jews. He was never able to build a church from scratch. He always preferred to build his churches in the foundations of the Nazarenes. The apostle of the Gentiles, he, he, he.
I can't believe you! Unless you didn't read the quotations in capital letters I suggested you to in my last post. Tell me, had Jerusalem assigned Barnabas to go after Paul and take him to Antioch? NO, HE DIDN'T. It means Barnabas did not do what he was supposed to do: To go to Antioch and take over the work at the main synagogue. Please, if you ask this again, I'll rest my case about you. You must be beyond repair.

Prove it to me. Use your own NT to prove that the term "Christian" was an insult. I'll be satisfied. If what you say above were true, Luke would lose all his credibility for lying that the disciples started being called Christians first in Antioch because of Paul.

You know very well that another Jew would not give you a munute of his day. You are having a sample with me and, don't deny that you get startled every time you get a reply to your most-the-time-not-too-smart questions.

Your right again. I am startled at all of your replies. They have made no sense what so ever by the standards of the Torah or the Prophets but yet you still proclaim to be a jew. Yes I am very much startled. And am sure I will be as I know that it is written that those like you will continue until your time comes to a end.

Your beginning to bore me with such flame-basted scriptural ignorance.

Ben, I tire of your nonsense and only have this much further to say. After this, I am sure you will continue with your lies and deceits with your reply to this as well as others, as would be expected from those of the circumcision that do not believe as it is so plainly and repeatedly written through out the books and epistles of Matthew through Revelation.

So I close with&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..

Act 9:10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Chananyah. The Master said to him in a vision, "Chananyah!" He said, "Behold, it's me, Master."
Act 9:11 The Master said to him, "Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judah for one named Sha'ul, a man of Tarsus. For behold, he is praying,
Act 9:12 and in a vision he has seen a man named Chananyah coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight."
Act 9:13 But Chananyah answered, "Master, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he did to your holy ones at Yerushalayim.
Act 9:14 Here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name."
Act 9:15 But the Master said to him, "Go your way, for he is my chosen vessel to bear my name before the nations and kings, and the children of Yisra'el.
Act 9:16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name's sake."
Act 9:17 Chananyah departed, and entered into the house. Laying his hands on him, he said, "Brother Sha'ul, the Master, who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me, that you may receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Act 9:18 Immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he received his sight. He arose and was purified.

.........This shows Sha'ul was chosen and this wasn't his own words but that of Luke and by witness of Chananyah. Also Sha'ul wasn't preaching apostasy in Yerushalayim. He was...........

Act 9:28 He was with them entering into Yerushalayim,
Act 9:29 preaching boldly in the name of YAH. He spoke and disputed against the Hellenists, but they were seeking to kill him.
Act 9:30 When the brothers knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him off to Tarsus.

...........These were the apostates. Hellenists that subverted the true word of Yah. Again we see plainly that these are not the words of Sha'ul but of others that was there and witnessed the truth about what occurred. We further see............

Act 11:22 The report concerning them came to the ears of the assembly which was in Yerushalayim. They sent out Barnabas to go to Antioch,
Act 11:23 who, when he had come, and had seen the grace of Elohim, was glad. He exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they should remain near to YAH.
Act 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, and many people were added to YAH.

...........We again plainly see that Barnabas went to Antioch first for many people were added to Yah because Barnabas was a good man and was full of the Ruach Ha Chodesh. It was only after all this occurred that He ...........

Act 11:25 Barnabas went out to Tarsus to look for Sha'ul.
Act 11:26 When he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. It happened, that for a whole year they were gathered together with the assembly, and taught many people. The disciples were first called christian in Antioch.

.............And I state that since Barnabas was filled with the Ruach Ha Chodesh that it in no way would have allowed him to go for or even invite Sha&#8217;ul if it had of been such an issue. Much less allowed him to do anything that YOU said that he wasn&#8217;t supposed to do. As far as the derogatory term "christian" is only found three times through out the NT and here it was used by those other than the believers. Most of whom had a great hate for the believers and would rather see them dead. None of the disciples or apostles used this derogatory term to address one another. We further see...............

Act 13:2 As they served YAH and fasted, the Ruach Ha Chodesh said, "Separate Barnabas and Sha'ul for me, for the work to which I have called them."

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;So the Ruach Ha Chodesh had them separated from the others to do what it had called them to do and.&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Act 13:9 But Sha'ul, who is also called Paul, filled with the Ruach Ha Chodesh, fastened his eyes on him,
Act 13:10 and said, "Full of all deceit and all cunning, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of YAH?
Act 13:11 Now, behold, the hand of YAH is on you, and you will be blind, not seeing the sun for a season!" Immediately a mist and darkness fell on him. He went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the teaching of YAH.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Even to the point of casting out demons did Elohim use Sha&#8217;ul&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

 

[gwk230]

Act 13:43 Now when the synagogue broke up, many of the Hebrews and of the devout proselytes followed Sha'ul and Barnabas; who, speaking to them, urged them to continue in the grace of Elohim.
Act 13:44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of Elohim.
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;They asked both Barnabas and Sha&#8217;ul to continue in this truth&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Sha'ul, and blasphemed.
Act 13:46 Sha'ul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, and said, "It was necessary that Elohim's word should be spoken to you first. Since indeed you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..I&#8216;m beginning to see a difference between what a so called jew is by their works as opposed to what a true Hebrew Yisraelite shows by their works&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Act 13:47 For so has YAH commanded us, saying, 'I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'"
Act 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of Elohim. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Act 13:49 YAH's word was spread abroad throughout all the region.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Praise Yah. Sha&#8217;ul and Barnabas did great works together in the name of Yah&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Act 14:1 It happened in Iconium that they entered together into the Jewish synagogue, and so spoke that a great multitude both of Jews and of Greeks believed.
Act 14:2 But the disbelieving Jews stirred up and embittered the minds of the Gentiles against the brothers.
Act 14:3 Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in YAH, who testified to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Praise Yah. Even those that came with such hate and deceit was put to shame by truth and all the wondrous acts that the Ruach Ha Chodesh afforded both Barnabas and Sha&#8217;ul to do in order to show Yah&#8217;s power and truth&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Act 14:8 At Lystra a certain man sat, impotent in his feet, a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked.
Act 14:9 He was listening to Sha'ul speaking, who, fastening eyes on him, and seeing that he had faith to be made whole,
Act 14:10 said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet!" He leaped up and walked.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Even to the point of healing the cripple&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Act 16:4 As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered the decrees to them to keep which had been ordained by the apostles and elders who were at Yerushalayim.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..So Barnabas and Sha&#8217;ul both continued in spreading those decrees that was ordained by the council in Yerushalayim&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Act 16:5 So the assemblies were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Act 16:6 When they had gone through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 When they had come opposite Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit didn't allow them.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Only shows proof that the Ruach Ha Chodesh did work through them and allowed and disallowed certain things that was done or places to go

No thing of Yah, which is clean and righteous, is going to work within anything that is not clean and of Yah. There is no way that a Malach of Yah was going to do the wondrous works that were done through Sha&#8217;ul or anyone else that wasn&#8217;t clean and righteous in the eyes of Yah.

I am quite at peace with the knowledge of the truth that I have been allowed to possess and fully understand that you, and those like you must be allowed to continue as a test for the rest of us. In closing I will quote my King with his own words, emphasis mine.............

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said to (Ben Masada), "Get behind me, (Adversary)! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of Elohim, but on the things of men."

 

[IF_u_knew]

Inferred is the key word there. We know what He has to say about mans wisdom so i wont go there.

Do you dare to argue with who it is God said His testimony was established? What about with whom it is that He put His Laws into? Psalm 78:5. I do not. Really though, I am intelligent enough to see that the commands drawn from Genesis 9 really are there even if they are not directly stated... I also am not so jealous that I can not admit they did a brilliant job to clarify it for the rest of us.

No you should leave up to God to clarify it for you. As it is written " they all will be taught of God" and no if the "jews" of today or yesterday were taught of God were actually teaching the true ways of God, do you think in there own religion there would be as many divisions in judaism as it is in christainity? Come now think.

No worries!! Going by Proverbs 2:1-7, I am taught by the "mouth" of God... I just have better clarification by listening to those who He guides me to.. the ones with whom He established the testimonies and put His Law inside of their hearts. Again, I do not suffer from the disease of jealousy that Paul spread into the Gentile Nations against the Jews and therefore, I am able to learn from their wisdom and from their mindset.

I can see with this comment you dont know what was the whole purpose God created mankind the way it is now and then what we are to become. In a nutshell He created us spiritually weak so we can experience evil (this world right now) so that when He judges the world and set everything right and everything good we would appreciate it. Therefore you wouldnt understand that the Potter made His pots this way purposely and to atone for them He died for them.

By God and the whole schpill of "He died for them" I am guessing you mean Jesus. True.. I do not believe that God is a man or ever will be a man. There is no purpose for it. I do not think that God is so limited that He needs blood being shed in the literal sense to forgive us/atone for our sins. If we do not require such a thing from others, how arrogant are we to say that God does. Besides, obviously the lesson is shown in the story of King David killing the innocent husband to cover his guilt for getting the other man's wife pregnant.. striking similarities... and God cursed the house of David because of this... and then God showed great favortism because David's eyes were enlightened by the Law to the Truth. How is it that you miss this?

Furthermore to believe that the blood of countless animals to atone for your sins is better than believing your God actually truly loves all His creation and MADE (*ahem*)

Him a Son to come and be THE sacrifice once and for all for His creation is more obsurd to me. But to each there own, but i still believe my belief shows a more loving and caring God, dont you?

I do not believe that God needs the blood of an animal or of a literal human sacrifice to forgive us of our sins. That is to show your ignorance of the sacrificial Laws. The only time that blood sacrifices of animals were used as symbolism for atonement was for sins of ignorance. Sins committed against other persons ALWAYS called for more serious consequences along with reconciliation to the person the "sinner" wronged.

Sorry, you cant take away the any of the Word of God and still know God. So whether one calls it the tanakh, the law, OT, NT, etc etc the original Words of God cannot be taken away.

I do not consider the NT to be the Word of God.

The Jewish were NEVER imposing the Law of their covenant between God and Israel on the Gentiles.. that was PAUL!

Really? cus that contradicts Acts 15 and that conference.

Why not do a play by play synopsis of Acts when you get the chance.. Start a thread for it in fact and let's see how well you can explain all the oddities/strangeness that lies therein. One thing.. since you want to take parts of it as fact.. how about explaining for me what so many others simply try to ignore.. that being acts 28:6... where Paul is called a god and does not deny it. Gotta accept that little tidbit, no?

Exactly and what is said of in those noahide laws is only inferred as you say

They are... but then again, I am not so full of my own self that I can not admit they are right in pulling out the commands that *are* indeed inferred in Genesis 9. That you deny it... yet deny the whole of the Law of God to accept a blood covering ... well, what is the point?

No the man-made traditions etc. are like some of the stuff that is stated in that site i told you to check out.

There is nothing wrong with man made traditions.. everyone has them. The ones that are in the Tanakh are for the Jewish people who are part of the covenant between God and Israel. If you do not like them.. then why even use the Tanakh as the basis for your beliefs. THIS IS THE #1 THING THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WITH CHRISTIANITY.. WHETHER IT IS MAINSTREAM OR A PICK AND CHOOSE FORM OF ONE INDIVIDUAL'S IDEA OF CHRISTIANITY. WHY NOT JUST LEAVE THE TANAKH AT THE DOOR, TAKE YOUR "BLESSED" NT AND BE ON YOUR OWN WAY.... else, let go of the jealousy and start understanding why, from the Jewish perspective, they have not accepted Christianity... after all, God is clear that HE established the testimony and the Laws WITH THEM! Personally, I think God knew what He was doing.. why don't you?

 

[gwk230]

Oh geesh! could you have not kept your discussions btw you and Ben? I had only put up the post you are responding to for the "benefit" of someone else I have been in discussions with since first arriving at this forum. *shrugs* Not trying to be rude.. but in all honesty... it *was* just to get under their skin.

LOL, oh my bad. Didn&#8217;t see it addressed to anyone so I thought I would address it myself.

Before you judge it, you KNOW you won't get that kind of honesty from Paul who refused to admit that he was trying to get under the skin of his fellow Jews, though it was apparent that *was* his intent.

Apparent to the scripturally stupid and ignorant maybe. I would hope he, as well as all the other apostles, got under the skin of all the non believing so called jews. I know it wasn&#8217;t their intent as I know it wasn&#8217;t the intent of Yahshua to get under their skin but that&#8217;s what usually happens to those with insecurities. They get to feel threatened and act out. They acted out so much that they pretty much wiped out all the believers.

Well, hell.. for the sake of your time, let's see what Paul said to disregard in Colossians 2, shall we?
Ordinances that were regarding the Jewish and NOT the Gentiles, but that he was claiming the Jews were directing toward the Gentiles "out of the blue for no reason":
1. Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
2. or in drink,
3. or in respect of an holyday,
4. or of the new moon,
5. or of the sabbath days (*AHEM*)

The Torah is for all that will accept it. Go read Isaiah 56 about the strangers that accept the Torah. Sha&#8217;ul was speaking to those that were Torah observant when making statements.

These never even applied to us... that was the lie he put into place to try and get the Christians (his new found followers) to give the Jewish People hell long after he was gone.
AHA!

They don&#8217;t apply if you don&#8217;t accept them. If you accept them and make a covenant between you and Yah then they are binding on you as they are anyone else. As far as giving anyone any trouble I would have to say that it was the other way around as history tells it. Almost all of the Hebrew Yisraelites that taught the good news of Yahshua was beaten down or stoned and or killed by the hands of non-believing jews.

This continual condemnation of Sha&#8217;ul is so, so old with no proof whatsoever. All you people do is do your best to twist and distort what is said and written by Sha&#8217;ul. I tell ya what, Lets take Sha&#8217;ul out of the picture for a little and lets just see what difference would it make to the message and gospel of Yahshua Ha Moshiach. Other than the question of whether the Gentiles are to circumcise or not, just what differences are there?

Which are a shadow of things to come...

Yes they are. What we do today is observe the memorial of those Holy Days as was commanded but the full fledged observance will return at the rebuilding of the Temple when Yahshua returns.

so many times Paul admits that the death and resurrection of Jesus was NOT the completion of anything like Christianity claims

I don&#8217;t blame Sha&#8217;ul for the false messengers and sons of beliel that have taught such lies and deceits to the masses which call themselves christians today. Sha&#8217;ul taught Yah&#8217;s Torah and truth as was expressed by Yahshua Ha Moshiach. As I told Ben Masada, the christians don&#8217;t have it anymore right than he, and now you.

and yet he tells the Gentiles to just go ahead and act like they are the bride/adopted of Christ by disregarding the covenant made between Israel and God.

What total hogwash. He taught them to observe the Torah which if anyone does, and believes on Yahshua Ha Moshiach, they will have a place in the kingdom.

As far as acting as the adopted bride which is the assembly, that not only holds to the faith and understanding of the man Yahshua but that of his teachings as well, what&#8217;s wrong with that? Disregarding the covenant? Come on now. You just said yourself that the gentiles have nothing to do with the covenant made between Yah and Yisrael. Yah is an El of covenants. He can make covenants with whomever He chooses. He doesn&#8217;t need your permission nor that of those that call themselves jews. If He also wanted to have covenant with the Gentiles then He most assuredly could. Better yet, He even has. He has made a covenant with whoever chooses to do his commands as well as keeps the faith of Yahshua Ha Moshiach.

Just replace ourselves, the Gentiles, by lip service with the Chosen of God, Israel.. but pay no heed to how God said to join ourselves to the covenant? Strange, no?

It would be strange if it were true which it is not. This is lies and deceits spewed by those with an agenda to disqualify Sha&#8217;ul as well as Yahshua as Moshiach. Its not going to happen. Sha&#8217;ul taught those that would believe to follow Torah. No one can replace another without the express will of Yah. It is His choice which He has already made so no matter what anyone says it doesn&#8217;t change a thing. All it does it get those like yourself all twisted up in a rage over nothing.

 

[gwk230]

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels... huh ? odd again indeed, don't you think? Did you REALLY read this chapter or are you just claiming to have read it?

What is odd is that you are posting these verses without a clue as to their meaning. It is really simple to see that Sha&#8217;ul is warning others not to let any deceive them into volunteering any heart felt emotion to their cause if it be not that of Yah and thus loosing their reward which is the promise of the Kingdom. Some even today worship what they call angels but it is &#8220;Malach&#8221; in Hebrew which simply means messenger or dispatch. We see it is written about and was addressed by a Malach that was receiving some reverence by man&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

Rev 19:10 I fell down before his feet to worship him. He said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the testimony of Yahshua. Worship Elohim, for the testimony of Yahshua is the Spirit of Prophecy."

To Yah be the glory. For no one rules with Him or beside Him. Praise be to Yah!

This is why one should be on guard and not allow anyone to take their reward.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, errr... because we *are* living in this world and God said that His Chosen BETTER be subject to them.. Malachi 3:7.

Have you lost your ever loving mind? Mal 3:7 has nothing at all to do with the traditions and ordinances of men but rather those of Yah. Col 2 is speaking on the ordinances and traditions of men. Namely those in authority which make a heavy laden yoke to place on the necks of the people. I believe it points toward what the Pharisees have began to compile which today is known by the so called name of the oral torah.

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? So... why even use the foundation, that being the Tanakh, if we are going to claim it all as just being the commandments of men? Take the NT off the Tanakh and let's just call it a day, shall we? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

The Hebrew rendering is better suited in understanding what a Hebrew wrote.

Col 2:20 If, along with the Moshiach, you died to the elemental spirits of the world, then why, as if you still belonged to the world, are you letting yourselves be bothered by its rules? -
Col 2:21 "Don't touch this!" "Don't eat that!" "Don't handle the other!"
Col 2:22 Such prohibitions are concerned with things meant to perish by being used [not by being avoided!], and they are based on man-made rules and teachings.
Col 2:23 They do indeed have the outward appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed religious observances, false humility and asceticism; but they have no value at all in restraining people from indulging their old nature.

When WAS it that Paul expected us to worship God?? The flesh is for woshiping the angels (I think.. not really sure *still* what he meant by that), but not for worshiping God? Do not do the things that GOD commanded through His servants?? Personally, I think this IS Life and afterward is death, so when AM I supposed to worship God? When I can not worship Him any longer??... that being when I am put it into the ground.. then, I can worship Him when it is no longer available to me to do so? The physical is a manifestation of the spiritual...

I am having trouble following such gibberish. Can you break it down in a more correct English for me please. None of it makes any sense. It looks like you got lost in a bunch of self induced fiction as to what you thought or felt Sha&#8217;ul was stating.

You should always and continually worship Yah your Elohim. I do not see Sha&#8217;ul stating any other message.

I personally will take my chances to obey the commands in the Tanakh to join myself to the covenant now.. while I still have breath in my lungs to do so. Those who choose to wait.. good luck. Dead men do not resurrect in the way that you all are hoping they will.

Well, first off the commands are in the first five books called the Torah and along with the prophets and the writings make up what you call the Tanakh. This as a whole was held up and taught by Yahshua and those that followed and taught of his good news. I Also believe in accepting the covenant and obeying the words of Yah but I also accept the faith and teachings of Yahshua Ha Moshiach as the sacrifice of Yah the Father that who might believe that he is the Moshiach might obtain the Kingdom through righteousness.

 

[starlite]

What is even more strange to me is how the Christians try to dictate to the Jewish how the covenant works when the covenant between Israel and God never had ANYTHING to do with the Gentiles. The commands of that Covenant were not even applicable to the Gentiles and thus, Paul lied to you, making you think it was and since you all did not keep those commands (der!), you were in need of a literal blood sacrifice, which you accepted in the way of a Jewish man on a cross. And so, you still remain in ignorance because of the cross and all the lies that have stemmed from it. The only commands given to the Gentiles are the 7 commands given by God to mankind, found in Genesis 9. They are common sense commands that separate man from the animals.. and if those are SO hard to keep that one needs a covering for not doing them, well what conclusion can be drawn except that you are a beast?

The commands that are given to the Jewish by God concerning THEIR covenant as the Chosen were never and even now are not up for the Gentiles to be re-writing and dictating to them. The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is clearly between the house of Israel, the house of Judah and God. You will not find the Gentiles have been included on that covenant and you will also see that NOTHING of the old covenant was abolished..

Which of the following would apply to Jews?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant With Noah[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rainbow Covenant [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant With Abraham [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant of Circumcision[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Law Covenant[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant With the Tribe of Levi [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant With Israel at Moab [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant With King David [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Covenant to Be a Priest Like Melchizedek[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]New Covenant[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus’ Covenant With His Followers [/FONT]​

This is just a few of the covenants of the Bible....​

 

[starlite]

The New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 is clearly between the house of Israel, the house of Judah and God. You will not find the Gentiles have been included on that covenant

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Who was taken into the new covenant? Not the literal “house of Israel,” who rejected the Mediator of this covenant. (Hebrews 9:15) No, this new “Israel” would be the “Israel of God,” a nation of spiritual Israelites including Gentiles (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29) What is the purpose of this covenant? It is to produce a nation of kings and priests to bless all mankind. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:10) The Mosaic Law covenant never produced this nation in the fullest sense, for Israel as a whole rebelled and lost out on their opportunity. ( Romans 11:17-21.) [/FONT]​

 

[IF_u_knew]

LOL, oh my bad. Didn&#8217;t see it addressed to anyone so I thought I would address it myself.

True, it is my fault for not being more specific.

The Torah is for all that will accept it. Go read Isaiah 56 about the strangers that accept the Torah. Sha&#8217;ul was speaking to those that were Torah observant when making statements.

Exactly... Paul was teaching them to disregard the Torah... how sad too, for it is the Laws of God that are found in the Torah that guide others to the Truth. I am very thankful to all those in times past and in the present who have kept to God's commands (and kept the Law and the Testimony intact) despite the hatred of Paul and his followers.

They don&#8217;t apply if you don&#8217;t accept them. If you accept them and make a covenant between you and Yah then they are binding on you as they are anyone else. As far as giving anyone any trouble I would have to say that it was the other way around as history tells it. Almost all of the Hebrew Yisraelites that taught the good news of Yahshua was beaten down or stoned and or killed by the hands of non-believing jews.

What was the good news of Jesus, according to you? And take another look at history there, for it seems you have overlooked much.. whether intentionally or out of ignorance.. it is really hard to say at this point.

This continual condemnation of Sha&#8217;ul is so, so old with no proof whatsoever. All you people do is do your best to twist and distort what is said and written by Sha&#8217;ul. I tell ya what, Lets take Sha&#8217;ul out of the picture for a little and lets just see what difference would it make to the message and gospel of Yahshua Ha Moshiach. Other than the question of whether the Gentiles are to circumcise or not, just what differences are there?

You have been shown not only by myself, but you have been shown a great deal more by Ben... what more do you need? You are disregarding the testimony of one in whom the testimony was established (psa 78:5)... what could I say that would make any difference to you?

I don&#8217;t blame Sha&#8217;ul for the false messengers and sons of beliel that have taught such lies and deceits to the masses which call themselves christians today. Sha&#8217;ul taught Yah&#8217;s Torah and truth as was expressed by Yahshua Ha Moshiach. As I told Ben Masada, the christians don&#8217;t have it anymore right than he, and now you.

So, YOU are right and the ones (the Jews) who God said he would establish the testimony and the Law with are wrong... in essence, you are saying that God was wrong and made a mistake. I do not see that at all... I see that God did not make a mistake and that you are just making up your own rules in your delusional pick and choose theology as you go.

What total hogwash. He taught them to observe the Torah which if anyone does, and believes on Yahshua Ha Moshiach, they will have a place in the kingdom.

I do not believe you when you say that you have read the writings of Paul. It is not proved to me when you say things such as "he taught them to observe the Torah" when clearly, as I have showed, he did not teach anyone any such thing. He only pretended to support it when it suited him.


Anyway... sorry that you wasted your time in typing out all these posts... you are MAKING UP things either out of pure ignorance or out of blatant denial... really, it would be the equivelant of me arguing with a person who insisted that I am posting in the color red when clearly I am posting in the color blue.

Ben is right... you are lucky that he even will give your replies the time of day because I certainly have to admit that I lack the patience to go any further than this. :sorry1:

 

[IF_u_knew]

[FONT=Bitstream Charter, serif]Who was taken into the new covenant? Not the literal &#8220;house of Israel,&#8221; who rejected the Mediator of this covenant. (Hebrews 9:15) No, this new &#8220;Israel&#8221; would be the &#8220;Israel of God,&#8221; a nation of spiritual Israelites including Gentiles (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29) What is the purpose of this covenant? It is to produce a nation of kings and priests to bless all mankind. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:10) The Mosaic Law covenant never produced this nation in the fullest sense, for Israel as a whole rebelled and lost out on their opportunity. ( Romans 11:17-21.) [/FONT]​

100% wishful thinking on your part that God would have changed!! That he would have discarded HIS CHOSEN (the ones to have chosen Him as well) for a people who discard everything that is beautiful about His Laws and call them traditions and commandments of man and look to cover their guilt with the blood sacrifice of the Jewish in hopes to gain the status of God (that being eternal life) and escape the judgments of God.... again, wishful thinking on the part of the greedy!!!


Why not just join to the covenant the way we were told and quit trying to replace the chosen of God via vain babblings that are nonsense..... certainly meaningless declarations as I HIGHLY doubt many of you would serve God, accept His judgments, be put through humiliation, abuse, and false judgments by greedy people if you also had no "hope" of reward set in place in the figment of your imaginations!!