IF_u_knew
Curious
I felt really bad that you would have taken the time to aknowledge my posts and try to discuss our opposing views and then, I give up. Please, understand that lately, I feel sort of like broken record and as you feel that it gets old w/ the Paul discussions from your point of view, it does mine as well. Anyway, I am sorry that I do not have it in me to go through each and every response that you have given, but I will show you the courtesy to draw on points that you made that do jump out to me.
Explain how you think that Paul was wise to instruct Gentiles to disregard what it is that is in the Torah and the testimonies. God is clear even in Ezekiel that to enter into His Sanctuary, the covenant, it is not ONLY the circumcision of the heart that counts... one MUST ALSO BE circumcised in the flesh as well. The New Covenant that is laid out in Jeremiah 31 has not abolished anything that was laid out in the Old covenant... only that instead of it being written in stone, it is written on the heart. All else still stands. For Gentiles to be a part of the covenant between Israel and God, they still must join as it is laid out by God and not by Paul.
The Church and most Christians do consider themselves having replaced the Jewish People in their covenant with God. To say that you can not see what all is changed in their views, all the disregarding of the Torah and their misunderstanding of the testimonies... a lot of this *does* fall on Paul. I have given you examples and you dismiss them only proving my point.
Who is the "we" here... and what are the Holy Days according to you?
Ben is Jewish though... Psalm 78:5... so, though I can see you disregarding what it is I say, why are you so quick to assume that you are right over him and others who are Jewish. Do you think there was a mistake made on the part of God when He established the testimonies and the Law in the Jewish People? Or even further, do you think He lied and really psalm 78:5 should have been your name? There is nothing wrong to read and have a personal view of the Tanakh on your own, but to just disregard those who God said we were to pay attention is to disregard the Word of God... and Paul did support this repeatedly as is shown in such statements as "shut their mouths" <----- speaking of the Jewish People. Does this not ring off alarm bells in your head when, AGAIN, God said He established the Word with *them*.. the Jews?
He REPEATEDLY called what is written in the Torah, the commands and traditions of men. He tells Gentiles not to worry about being circumcised when even in Ezekiel, God is clear that to enter His sanctuary, one MUST be circumcised not only in the heart, but also IN THE FLESH!
Paul repeatedly implies that Jesus is God and that is the Saviour and calls him Lord when God is clear in Isaiah that HIS name is LORD, that He is the ONLY Saviour (there is no other), and that He alone is God.. there was not one formed before Him and neither would there be after... not to mention it repeatedly states throughout the Tanakh that God *is* not a man. To say that He was, is, or will be is to blatantly ignore the Truth of God's Word. Also, the Son of God is not only Jesus... Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1 say who it is that is declared by God as His firstborn. Now... when you ignore those who are Jewish and trying to teach you, such as Ben or others, then how are you going to say that you would have paid any attention to Jesus who would not have been in disagreement with what they are telling you? You *are* denying the Son of God when you deny ANY of the Chosen of God, the People of Israel.
Jesus himself though confirms that what HE was teachings is found in the Hebrew Scriptures.. not in the writings of the NT... those did not even exist. And the New Covenant in the Hebrew Scriptures is covered in Jeremiah 31.. there is nothing in the testimonies or in the Old Covenant that contradicts the New Covenant being made between the house of Israel, the house of Judah and God.
JESUS CONFIRMED *THAT* COVENANT.... Matthew 5:17-19. He even repeatedly states that it is to the house of Israel that he is calling and not the Gentiles. He appointed Peter to be the one to deal with the Gentiles who GOD WOULD call out to join themselves to the New Covenant. Paul was speaking on his own behalf about the covenant that he made up and he used Jesus, a religious jew hanging on a cross as the symbol for his covenant with death between him (Paul) and the Gentiles.
Truly, it is strange and it is the Truth. Paul told his new followers to shut their mouths.. that being the Jewish who are the Chosen People... the Son of God... the Light to the Gentiles. Paul told the Gentiles through his writings to disregard what they say and dismiss it as commandments of men and traditions of men... replace those things with the image of a religious Jew hanging on a cross...
Come on.. I am not speaking biasedly here. I have nothing to be vain or deceitful about.. I have no agenda except to tell the truth as it is there in front of us.
:sad:*We* were the ones to have inherited the lies. US!!! Because of Paul and the Church. ***CONSIDER*** Jeremiah 16:19 " O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." I have nothing to gain to tell you the truth. If I lie to you, then I have my own self to lose, and thus I would not do it...lie to anyone, that is. There is nothing bias for me in what I say nor is there any reason for me to deceive anyone. I am just calling it as I am reading it.. I am not even interpreting anything..
The Torah is for all that will accept it. Go read Isaiah 56 about the strangers that accept the Torah. Sha’ul was speaking to those that were Torah observant when making statements.
Explain how you think that Paul was wise to instruct Gentiles to disregard what it is that is in the Torah and the testimonies. God is clear even in Ezekiel that to enter into His Sanctuary, the covenant, it is not ONLY the circumcision of the heart that counts... one MUST ALSO BE circumcised in the flesh as well. The New Covenant that is laid out in Jeremiah 31 has not abolished anything that was laid out in the Old covenant... only that instead of it being written in stone, it is written on the heart. All else still stands. For Gentiles to be a part of the covenant between Israel and God, they still must join as it is laid out by God and not by Paul.
Other than the question of whether the Gentiles are to circumcise or not, just what differences are there?
The Church and most Christians do consider themselves having replaced the Jewish People in their covenant with God. To say that you can not see what all is changed in their views, all the disregarding of the Torah and their misunderstanding of the testimonies... a lot of this *does* fall on Paul. I have given you examples and you dismiss them only proving my point.
Yes they are. What we do today is observe the memorial of those Holy Days as was commanded but the full fledged observance will return at the rebuilding of the Temple when Yahshua returns.
Who is the "we" here... and what are the Holy Days according to you?
I don’t blame Sha’ul for the false messengers and sons of beliel that have taught such lies and deceits to the masses which call themselves christians today. Sha’ul taught Yah’s Torah and truth as was expressed by Yahshua Ha Moshiach. As I told Ben Masada, the christians don’t have it anymore right than he, and now you.
Ben is Jewish though... Psalm 78:5... so, though I can see you disregarding what it is I say, why are you so quick to assume that you are right over him and others who are Jewish. Do you think there was a mistake made on the part of God when He established the testimonies and the Law in the Jewish People? Or even further, do you think He lied and really psalm 78:5 should have been your name? There is nothing wrong to read and have a personal view of the Tanakh on your own, but to just disregard those who God said we were to pay attention is to disregard the Word of God... and Paul did support this repeatedly as is shown in such statements as "shut their mouths" <----- speaking of the Jewish People. Does this not ring off alarm bells in your head when, AGAIN, God said He established the Word with *them*.. the Jews?
What total hogwash. He taught them to observe the Torah which if anyone does, and believes on Yahshua Ha Moshiach, they will have a place in the kingdom.
He REPEATEDLY called what is written in the Torah, the commands and traditions of men. He tells Gentiles not to worry about being circumcised when even in Ezekiel, God is clear that to enter His sanctuary, one MUST be circumcised not only in the heart, but also IN THE FLESH!
Paul repeatedly implies that Jesus is God and that is the Saviour and calls him Lord when God is clear in Isaiah that HIS name is LORD, that He is the ONLY Saviour (there is no other), and that He alone is God.. there was not one formed before Him and neither would there be after... not to mention it repeatedly states throughout the Tanakh that God *is* not a man. To say that He was, is, or will be is to blatantly ignore the Truth of God's Word. Also, the Son of God is not only Jesus... Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1 say who it is that is declared by God as His firstborn. Now... when you ignore those who are Jewish and trying to teach you, such as Ben or others, then how are you going to say that you would have paid any attention to Jesus who would not have been in disagreement with what they are telling you? You *are* denying the Son of God when you deny ANY of the Chosen of God, the People of Israel.
As far as acting as the adopted bride which is the assembly, that not only holds to the faith and understanding of the man Yahshua but that of his teachings as well, what’s wrong with that? Disregarding the covenant? Come on now. You just said yourself that the gentiles have nothing to do with the covenant made between Yah and Yisrael. Yah is an El of covenants. He can make covenants with whomever He chooses. He doesn’t need your permission nor that of those that call themselves jews. If He also wanted to have covenant with the Gentiles then He most assuredly could. Better yet, He even has. He has made a covenant with whoever chooses to do his commands as well as keeps the faith of Yahshua Ha Moshiach.
Jesus himself though confirms that what HE was teachings is found in the Hebrew Scriptures.. not in the writings of the NT... those did not even exist. And the New Covenant in the Hebrew Scriptures is covered in Jeremiah 31.. there is nothing in the testimonies or in the Old Covenant that contradicts the New Covenant being made between the house of Israel, the house of Judah and God.
JESUS CONFIRMED *THAT* COVENANT.... Matthew 5:17-19. He even repeatedly states that it is to the house of Israel that he is calling and not the Gentiles. He appointed Peter to be the one to deal with the Gentiles who GOD WOULD call out to join themselves to the New Covenant. Paul was speaking on his own behalf about the covenant that he made up and he used Jesus, a religious jew hanging on a cross as the symbol for his covenant with death between him (Paul) and the Gentiles.
It would be strange if it were true which it is not. This is lies and deceits spewed by those with an agenda to disqualify Sha’ul as well as Yahshua as Moshiach. Its not going to happen. Sha’ul taught those that would believe to follow Torah. No one can replace another without the express will of Yah. It is His choice which He has already made so no matter what anyone says it doesn’t change a thing. All it does it get those like yourself all twisted up in a rage over nothing.
Truly, it is strange and it is the Truth. Paul told his new followers to shut their mouths.. that being the Jewish who are the Chosen People... the Son of God... the Light to the Gentiles. Paul told the Gentiles through his writings to disregard what they say and dismiss it as commandments of men and traditions of men... replace those things with the image of a religious Jew hanging on a cross...
Come on.. I am not speaking biasedly here. I have nothing to be vain or deceitful about.. I have no agenda except to tell the truth as it is there in front of us.
:sad:*We* were the ones to have inherited the lies. US!!! Because of Paul and the Church. ***CONSIDER*** Jeremiah 16:19 " O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." I have nothing to gain to tell you the truth. If I lie to you, then I have my own self to lose, and thus I would not do it...lie to anyone, that is. There is nothing bias for me in what I say nor is there any reason for me to deceive anyone. I am just calling it as I am reading it.. I am not even interpreting anything..
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