The Mental Illness Question

[Timothy Bryce]

This is a topic of interest of mine for a variety of reasons. Especially in my line of work, life and observations of the lives of various, if not all, people I've encountered in my life, mental illness and health seems to be a prominent, if not latent, issue. There's a lot of open ended questions I seem to have.

My first response to the issue is to identify it as a cultural/societal construct where a society decides to categorize and treat various types of personalities, dispositions and disorders so that it isn't disrupted by the individual and that the individual benefits in having said illness/disorder treated or cured. This raises a talking point in which I'm forced to consider whether these relatively artificial labels being applied to people is necessarily for this supposed greater good.

I'm also concerned with the apparent impact that a doctor or psychiatrist's diagnosis of a person's individual mental circumstances falling under a general term has on that individual's "mental health" in general. Whether labelling someone with "depression" may be a counterproductive measure which holds the potential to discourage someone from addressing the material circumstances that have caused a persistent low mood and assume that their mood is in the hands of circumstances that are completely out of their control. Big pharmaceutical plays a role in this concern as each diagnosable mental issue seems to have a medication available to treat it in addition to availability of psychological treatment; all of a sudden the concept takes on the character of a working industry.

All of this raises questions about maintaining a status quo that is threatened by an inclusiveness of people with temperaments, dispositions and psychological makeups that are alternative to this. I recall having a conversation with a New Age type who cited ancient and not so ancient civilizations who actually privileged various types of people who, in today's western culture, would be considered to be insane or suffering from a mental condition. I've heard and entertained the suggestion that people with schizophrenia were actually considered to be naturally gifted shamans with an ability to access the mystical and divine.

My sister is a psychologist and deals with people locked away in asylums and we discuss whether these people - if they were of a different time and place - might have been celebrated in ways that most of our culture only knows how to apply to celebrities, sports figures and politicians.

Does anyone have any insight or able to share any experiences opinions on the way western culture perceives mental "deviances" for the lack of a better expression?


EDIT: I also recall having a conversation with a former housemate about certain celebrity lifestyles in modern western culture (at the time we refered exclusively to "troubled rockstars") and my housemate suggested that many of the icons who experienced recreational substance use and a spectrum of mental dispositions were actually our version of a venerated class of people - "Our shamans". The 27 club was brought up and we were left wondering whether many of the early ends to these lives was a necessary aspect of their role - to eventually end up with a form of total self sacrifice for the benefit of the greater good - "the legendary sacrificial lamb remixing christ's greatest hit". Wild stuff I thought.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think it's just as important to not romanticise mental health issues by reflecting positively on ancient cultures that viewed it as supernatural, as it is to make sure accurate information about stigmatised mental health issues are more widely available.

I've supported a few people who hear voices and let me tell you, it's often a terrifying and painful experience for them and I think it's quite insulting to reflect on the "good ole days" when they would have been afforded special status due to ignorance.

You often hear people refer to themselves as Schizo when they have conflicting feelings or interests and say schizophrenia is a multiple personally disorder, which it isn't. Often it is misconceptions about mental health issues that lead to fear and contribute to isolation.

Some people feel relieved when they are diagnosed because they feel it gives them a language they can use to understand themselves and explain it to others. Other people feel it's a restricting label that hinders their recovery. I think when treating mental health illnesses it does have to be very individual but the problem is that there often isn't enough resources for that to happen for most people, especially for people who would not be able to afford their own treatment.

 

[allfoak]

With my many years in and out of drug rehabs i have found that it is not very difficult to convince the psychiatrists and psychologists that i am either sane or mentally ill.
Using the system became easy because many who are "educated" only know what they have been told to think.
Those of us who have had to rely on experience to learn often know a great deal more about mental states than those who have been "educated" about them.

This being the case, the system of diagnoses seems to have a major flaw.
It relies on the interaction of doctor and patient.
I can essentially decide for myself what the diagnoses will be without the doctors every knowing that they have been manipulated.

Mental states can be moved in and out of like we move in and out of a room.
Many who end up on pharmaceuticals for the rest of their life for something that some Dr. thinks is not quite normal will never have an opportunity to learn what it is that they need to overcome the issue that may exist.
Some of these people just need a knowledgeable person to guide them, not drugs.
People who get stuck in one place or another in their mind just need someone to show them to the door to get out.
Sometimes this door is nothing more than a kind word.

 

[picnic]

I'm also concerned with the apparent impact that a doctor or psychiatrist's diagnosis of a person's individual mental circumstances falling under a general term has on that individual's "mental health" in general. Whether labelling someone with "depression" may be a counterproductive measure which holds the potential to discourage someone from addressing the material circumstances that have caused a persistent low mood and assume that their mood is in the hands of circumstances that are completely out of their control.

I agree that everybody seems to have a diagnosis today. Eventually the psychologists may have NPD (normal personality disorder)

Regarding depression, it is more than simply a response to material circumstances. I seem to have a weird form of depression that comes and goes. The coming and going allows me to observe the difference. When I come out of depression, I'm always shocked by how distorted my perceptions had been before just an hour earlier. I'm also not a fan of psychiatric medications, but I know they are beneficial to some people.

I recall having a conversation with a New Age type who cited ancient and not so ancient civilizations who actually privileged various types of people who, in today's western culture, would be considered to be insane or suffering from a mental condition. I've heard and entertained the suggestion that people with schizophrenia were actually considered to be naturally gifted shamans with an ability to access the mystical and divine.

I agree with that. I would say religion would not exist without mental illness. A person who would have gone to a monastery and become a famous saint in ancient times would simply take medication today. This is something to consider when we look for inspiration and wisdom in the writings of these ancient saints, etc. If it is hard to understand, maybe that is because it is schizophrenic word salad instead of subtle wisdom.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

@allfoak
Sorry but what was that? That was extremely overly simplistic. I have supported people with serious mental health issues and although a kind word can help them get through the day, it's no where near a cure.
The problem is developing treatment that goes beyond basic talk therapy and drugs. Recently avatar therapy has been developed for people who hear voices and apparently it's been proven to be very effective. Whether or not it becomes widely available is the issue.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's a complicated issue. On one hand, yes some cultures very much held those with certain conditions in very high regards, but it's not uncommon either to find some conditions treated on the basis it was believed the person was spiritually possessed. I feel strongly that if it were possible to do a thorough and proper investigation into it, we would probably find a strong correlation between certain conditions being venerated, some really not being noticed, while some where abhorred and even feared.
In my experience, Western Culture doesn't like any sort of mental deviance. I have Asperger's Syndrome, and even though that tends to come with a range of very strong and desirable traits, being introverted tends to bother people and make getting jobs harder, people are sometimes disturbed by logical thinking that can easily dismiss emotional thinking that would get other people caught up, people tend to assume you are broken, flawed, or "bad" if you don't feel for others, and many people are unnerved by a face that doesn't show much expression, sometimes impatient and even mean when you fail to understand a social situation, and there is a ton of crap that is believed about Asperger's Syndrome and Autism in general.
This reflects a much larger problem in society in which mental disorders, largely and mostly, and feared, shunned, demonized, and just flat-out misunderstood. The mentally ill, as a whole, commit very few violent crimes and are far more likely to be the victims of violence but many people think those with things such as schizophrenia are dangerous when. in reality they very rarely are. Really what society needs is a paradigm shift in how we approach mental illness, how we treat and think of those with a mental illness, and adding more resources to help those with a mental illness.
However, therapy and a diagnosis can help and have great benefits for many. Myself, this has been in the form of better learning how to interview and how to better conduct myself at job interviews. For some, such as those with bi-polar disorder, moods can be stabilized which can significantly help them to function in society and reduce the chances of them causing harm to themselves.

I can essentially decide for myself what the diagnoses will be without the doctors every knowing that they have been manipulated.

That isn't a problem with psychotherapy, but a problem with yourself for not being honest with care providers.

 

[Valjean]

While many disorders are pretty much globally disabling, others may be more situationally or culturally dysfunctional, so I think you make a good point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_hypothesis

 

[allfoak]

@allfoak
Sorry but what was that? That was extremely overly simplistic. I have supported people with serious mental health issues and although a kind word can help them get through the day, it's no where near a cure.
The problem is developing treatment that goes beyond basic talk therapy and drugs. Recently avatar therapy has been developed for people who hear voices and apparently it's been proven to be very effective. Whether or not it became widely available is the issue.

The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to help these people may be an indication that you have complicated the process?
I am not suggesting that a kind word is going to cure anything.
I am suggesting that what is being done currently is not working and in my opinion it is the process of diagnoses and the lack of knowledge on the part of the doctors that is the problem.

 

[allfoak]

I know people who are considered mentally ill.
I have had these people tell me that i am better at helping them than their doctor.
If i were a doctor i would find that disturbing.

 

[allfoak]

That isn't a problem with psychotherapy, but a problem with yourself for not being honest with care providers.

I see, so the fact that these educated people can't tell the difference between being manipulated and reality is my problem?
I have found many of these doctors have more problems than i do.
The education of these people is deplorable.

 

[picnic]

The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to help these people may be an indication that you have complicated the process?
I am not suggesting that a kind word is going to cure anything.
I am suggesting that what is being done currently is not working and in my opinion it is the process of diagnoses and the lack of knowledge on the part of the doctors that is the problem.

I agree with you that the caregivers often don't know as much as the patients. My therapist observed several times that I seem to want to control my own treatment. (She wasn't being critical.) I view the therapist as a consultant to help me understand and solve my problems. They can look at me from the outside, and they have more general knowledge than me. I can look at me from the inside, and I can tell them about me specifically.

It's impossible for the caregiver to understand these illnesses in the same way that the patient can understand them through direct experience. Some caregivers have been patients in the past, and that can give them an edge.

 

[allfoak]

I agree with you that the caregivers often don't know as much as the patients. My therapist observed several times that I seem to want to control my own treatment. (She wasn't being critical.) I view the therapist as a consultant to help me understand and solve my problems. They can look at me from the outside, and they have more general knowledge than me. I can look at me from the inside, and I can tell them about me specifically.

It's impossible for the caregiver to understand these illnesses in the same way that the patient can understand them through direct experience. Some caregivers have been patients in the past, and that can give them an edge.

My experience has been that they are unable to help the mentally ill in any significant way because they are simply doing it wrong.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The fact that you are still trying to figure out how to help these people may be an indication that you have complicated the process?
I am not suggesting that a kind word is going to cure anything.
I am suggesting that what is being done currently is not working and in my opinion it is the process of diagnoses and the lack of knowledge on the part of the doctors that is the problem.

I volunteer for a temporary emotional support service. I do not complicate the process on my own terms. I know for a fact it's more complicated than what you are making it out to be because I have listened to people with serious mental health illnesses without giving them direct treatment.
Making simplistic statements like "they just need someone to show them the way out.." (what does that even mean!!??" Just shows you have very little understanding about serious mental health illnesses.
I'm not saying I'm particularly educated myself but I know very well from listening to people with serious mental health illnesses that being "shown the way out" isn't a straight forward process and does require diagnosis and drugs and talk therapy. But I think there needs to be faster developments that are more widely available.

 

[allfoak]

I volunteer for a temporary emotional support service. I do not complicate the process on my own terms. I know for a fact it's more complicated than what you are making it out to be because I have listened to people with serious mental health illnesses without giving them direct treatment.
Making simplistic statements like "they just need someone to show them the way out.." (what does that even mean!!??" Just shows you have very little understanding about serious mental health illnesses.
I'm not saying I'm particularly educated myself but I know very well from listening to people with serious mental health illnesses that being "shown the way out" isn't a straight forward process and does require diagnosis and drugs and talk therapy. But I think there needs to be faster developments that are more widely available.

Maybe you should have just asked me what i meant by the phrase, rather than get offended?

What is it that you would like to know?
I found the way out.
That qualifies me to help others do the same.
I'm afraid some of these doctors don't even know they are trapped themselves.

I can't cure mental illness (whatever that means) but i can do a lot to help those with the problem.
Do a study on genius.
They are often living on the edge of sanity.
I am often called a lunatic or worse.
I don't mind so much anymore because i know that i think very different than most.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am suggesting that what is being done currently is not working and in my opinion it is the process of diagnoses and the lack of knowledge on the part of the doctors that is the problem.

Well, considering that it really hasn't been that long since we abandoned locking those with mentally illnesses away and putting them away in asylums, such treatments are still in their infancy. Some doctors do screw up, but many doctors have helped many people from being at the mercy of their mood swings or other impairing conditions to being able to function without their illness being a major detriment.
Really, what is more damaging is dismissing treatment entirely and talking as if it's just all in the head, and trying to say that someone with several years of education has an education that is "deplorable."

I see, so the fact that these educated people can't tell the difference between being manipulated and reality is my problem?

Actually, they usually can tell, but they can't put words in your mouth. They can often tell when someone is just saying what they want to hear, or trying to lead them down a certain path. But when you say you can convince them you are either mentally ill or sane, you probably aren't, and it very much is your problem for not being honest with care givers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do a study on genius.
They are often living on the edge of sanity.

That is a myth that has no empirical data to support the claim.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Maybe you should have just asked me what i meant by the phrase, rather than get offended?

What is it that you would like to know?
I found the way out.
That qualifies me to help others do the same.
I'm afraid some of these doctors don't even know they are trapped themselves.

I can't cure mental illness (whatever that means) but i can do a lot to help those with the problem.
Do a study on genius.
They are often living on the edge of sanity.
I am often called a lunatic or worse.
I don't mind so much anymore because i know that i think very different than most.

What did find the way out of and how did you?

 

[picnic]

My experience has been that they are unable to help the mentally ill in any significant way because they are simply doing it wrong.

FWIW, therapists have sometimes helped me by giving me new information to understand my problems. Sometimes it helps to have more information.

Another thing that has helped me is forums. Simply talking to other people. People are often more open on forums due to the anonymity. We can share things we have learned and everybody benefits.

 

[DawudTalut]

...... Especially in my line of work, life and observations of the lives of various, if not all, people I've encountered in my life, mental illness and health seems to be a prominent, if not latent, issue. There's a lot of open ended questions I seem to have..........

Peace be on you....If I may ask, in your opinion
1-what were various reasons for mental illness in % cases. Family issues, unable to solve life problems, oppression, nutrition, substance abuse, parental negligence, schools' pressure.....etc.
2-How much % people should not have used medicine for mental illness.
3-How many cultures are represented by your patients(?) ?
4-How many patients % could get benefit with proper life routines, good sleep, less TV, balanced food etc.
Thanks

 

[allfoak]

That is a myth that has no empirical data to support the claim.

There is no empirical data to support modern psychiatry.
I would imagine you wouldn't recognize a genius if you met one.