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The Miracle of Water.

ecco

Veteran Member
That's a fair point.

But that still leaves the question, do you think these people are lying, then?
It's really hard to tell, isn't it? I lump UFO believers, Bigfoot believers, theists, mediums, faith healers, psychics, etc into the same big pile of "supernaturalists".

I think many actually believe. I think some are in it just for the money and fame.

I also think the more religious indoctrination one got as a child, the more open they are to other "supernaturalist" things. I don't know any atheists who believe in UFOs or telekinesis.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Who will stop them from destroying the only home we have? It's well on it way to the point of no return. Are we in for the mass extinction of all mass extinctions?

Perhaps you can explain why it is mostly religious people who disbelieve and argue against AGW.




ETA:
Did you know that the Bible makes reference to those who are 'ruining the earth' in our time? It says that before they actually accomplish it, that God will bring them to ruin. (Revelation 11:18)
Perhaps you just answered the above question. Religious people don't care about the reasons for Climate Change. They are just hoping for the "destruction" to begin so that Jesus will make his grand reappearance.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
the video seems to be missing the point.
Earth life evolved in water so naturally it adapted itself to use water to it's advantage.
If life evolves on a planet with other substances, like ammonia, methane and other gasses then it would not need water.

Missing the point?....how ironic when those who are determined to deny the clear design in nature are bent on never seeing it. Have it your way. You can believe whatever you wish.

There is no substance on earth that is more vital to life, than water. It didn't just make itself. It has such unique properties. Nothing on this planet could exist without it. On planets (even in our own solar system,) that are devoid of water, we see that they are also devoid of life.

If life is a product of natural forces, then why has it never appeared on other planets? Why has life not evolved, adapted to the conditions that naturally occur on those other planets?

Can you tell me what would happen if water froze and sank to the bottom of the ocean like so many other liquids do when you freeze them? Why does ice float? What is the advantage of that?
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Perhaps you can explain why it is mostly religious people who disbelieve and argue against AGW.

You won't get any arguments from me on that issue. Why would anyone deny the evidence? The water levels are rising....ice shelfs are melting....it's a fact. Man has contributed greatly to the sad and sorry state of this planet.....and we mostly have the misuse of science to thank for it. o_O

ETA:

Perhaps you just answered the above question. Religious people don't care about the reasons for Climate Change. They are just hoping for the "destruction" to begin so that Jesus will make his grand reappearance.

We clearly acknowledge the reasons for climate change but it is also clear who is the main cause of it. This is our only home and we are trashing it because of the greedy, lazy, "disposable" lifestyle that people have been induced to follow. Who induced man to threaten his very existence?

We are resting our hope on someone who has the power and the will to curb human greed and to undo the damage he seems to be in no hurry to fix.

You have some solutions do you? Let's hear them...
and then let's see humans who can act to halt the activities that continue unabated, and then let's see them reverse the damage.

Are you as patient as we are? Can you depend on the system that caused the damage to rectify it at great cost to themselves?
I won't hold my breath. :rolleyes:
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You won't get any arguments from me on that issue. Why would anyone deny the evidence? The water levels are rising....ice shelfs are melting....it's a fact. Man has contributed greatly to the sad and sorry state of this planet.....and we mostly have the misuse of science to thank for it.

One of the causes of the poor conditions is overpopulation. Religions have and continue to argue against birth control methods developed by science.

We clearly acknowledge the reasons for climate change but it is also clear who is the main cause of it. ...
We are resting our hope on someone who has the power and the will to curb human greed and to undo the damage he seems to be in no hurry to fix.
You are not just hoping. Many Christians are praying for Armageddon. Many of those same Christians deny AGW. I guess that's a +1 for JW.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
those who are determined to deny the clear design in nature are bent on never seeing it

What scientists are determined to do is to explain how reality works. They see the patterns in nature, but have no need yet to attribute them to an intelligent designer. Science has no use for that hypothesis - an idea with no evidentiary support, no explanatory power, and one of no value in any scientific theory,

[Water] didn't just make itself.

As far as we know, it did. You can watch it make itself wherever the proper ingredients and conditions come together.

If life is a product of natural forces, then why has it never appeared on other planets?

It probably has. On moons, too. Life may very well exist everywhere that it is possible for it to exist, the way that water probably exists everywhere that it is possible to exist. Why wouldn't it?

And if you'll be honest with yourself, you'll realize that all evidence points to a god to you, whatever it is. You only mention this matter here because you think that if you can declare that life on earth is a unique, one-off event in the universe, that it will support your god belief, but that as soon as life is found extraterrestrially, it will not be evidence of naturalistic abiogenesis to you, but just more evidence that your god is real.

Your entire argument is an incredulity fallacy. You just can't see how reality could be as it is without an intelligent designer, so, that proves to you that there is one.

But what persuasive power do you think that that argument has with those who have no trouble imagining a godless reality? You show people pretty pictures and tell them that you can't see how this could happen without a conscious artist. Fine. They can. What else is there to add?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The natural forces have always been so no created them. The universe is in constant change but it has no beginning and no end.
We must stop what we are doing to our home. We have to change our behavior and accept that unlimited growth leads to the destruction of our own kind and all life around us. You and I and all that will listen must reach out to the rest no matter what religion one believes in to stop destroying our precious world.

I am wondering how you arrived at the conclusion the Universe had No beginning__________________
I can agree we must stop what we are doing our home.
Since there is NO indication of changing behavior then that is showing mankind can't direct his step.
That is why God will have Jesus step in. Executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked.

As per - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Revelation 11:18 B.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
One of the causes of the poor conditions is overpopulation. Religions have and continue to argue against birth control methods developed by science.
............. Many Christians are praying for Armageddon....................

Even if ' religions ' argue against birth control does Not mean the Bible does.
I find Jesus taught us to pray Not for Armageddon to come, but for God's kingdom to come (thy kingdom come).
That would be the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to come because Jesus is King/Ruler of God's Kingdom government.
So, instead of praying for Armageddon destruction, rather for the 'healing' of earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Missing the point?....how ironic when those who are determined to deny the clear design in nature are bent on never seeing it. Have it your way. You can believe whatever you wish.

There is no substance on earth that is more vital to life, than water. It didn't just make itself. It has such unique properties. Nothing on this planet could exist without it. On planets (even in our own solar system,) that are devoid of water, we see that they are also devoid of life.

Take two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom and combine them. You get water. That will form spontaneously given the ingredients and is fairly common in the universe.

If life is a product of natural forces, then why has it never appeared on other planets? Why has life not evolved, adapted to the conditions that naturally occur on those other planets?

Given how few other planets we've explored, how do you know it hasn't?

Can you tell me what would happen if water froze and sank to the bottom of the ocean like so many other liquids do when you freeze them? Why does ice float? What is the advantage of that?

Can you say how this would be possible and still be water? The properties of water follow from the properties of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, which follow from the properties of electrons, and nuclei, which follow from the properties of electrons and quarks. The physical laws determine the properties of water. There is no other real option.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And you are a conspiracy nut, too- surprise surprise!

The interesting thing about conspiracy theories is that every now and then there is one that rings true and makes you go and do research on the subject. Ignorant people lump them all together imagining that if most of them are rubbish, they must all be rubbish......how do you think they get away with what they do? They play on the very mentality that you display....and you think we are gullible.....? :rolleyes:

What I never understand about people that say this is how they think that a cure for cancer would NOT make Big Pharma billions?

The Bible says that the whole world is ruled from behind the scenes by a powerful and evil entity who is bent on taking as many people as he can fool, down with him. Those who don't believe he exists are his primary dupes.

I have heard many unbelievers say, after witnessing or hearing about the depth of depravity demonstrated in certain events in history and in the world today, that they start to wonder about the existence of this evil force, because they understand that when something is described as "inhuman" that it probably does not originate with human thinking, but may be coming from a source of evil that is more powerful and is collectively influencing these poor excuses for human beings.

Next to politics, the commercial system is a prime example of this level of evil. The making of money at the expense of suffering has been carried on for decades under the guise of competent medical treatment. Do you know how many people survive chemotherapy? For many types of cancer, it is extremely low and the 5 year survival rate is hardly a guarantee of a cure. Many cancers return after the 5 years are up.

This is a multi-billion dollar business that because of politics, the almost invisible role of insurance companies and the medical community’s lack of desire to do any research that will alter the outdated paradigm that they are stuck with, will most likely not change the thinking of the medical system any time soon. They are reaping too much from this cash cow and the resulting suffering and death is deplorable, given the advances in science in so many other areas. Why in this 21st century are people still suffering and dying and the medical system is laughing all the way to the bank. Did you know that doctors are not allowed to even suggest better natural therapies to their patients under threat of losing their licence? If someone presents with cancer they are only permitted to suggest three approaches...chemo, radiation and surgery.....all have been demonstrated to increase the risk of return of the cancer or the spread of it.

To their credit, many doctors are now turning to functional medicine....tired of the drug approach to everything with often poor very outcomes.

Alternative therapies have proven to be more successful than chemo, for the simple reason that the immune systems of patients have been stimulated and used to promote, not only remission, but a complete cure in many cases. Chemo destroys what little is left of the human immune system and often times is the cause of death, not the cancer. Doctors can bury their mistakes and still profit from them.

If you had done any real research, you would know this.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Take two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom and combine them. You get water. That will form spontaneously given the ingredients and is fairly common in the universe.

Can I ask where the hydrogen and oxygen atoms came from? Were they always just floating about, waiting to become water?
What a marriage! Imagine how many of them had to come together accidentally to cover the whole planet! Then somehow accidentally salt got thrown in.....how very convenient. What would happen to the oceans if there was no salt?

No land dweller can drink salty water so another convenient accident of nature provided the means to lift water from the ocean, condense it into clouds that can hold millions of tons of water, then float them over land to release their cargo.....giving life to vegetation and animals and man.....how many accidents so far, and we've only started. We haven't even mentioned how life began......

Given how few other planets we've explored, how do you know it hasn't?

Science seems so talented when predicting the existence of water on other planets....or even on the moon....and yet there is no real evidence of life anywhere but here.

Can you say how this would be possible and still be water? The properties of water follow from the properties of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, which follow from the properties of electrons, and nuclei, which follow from the properties of electrons and quarks. The physical laws determine the properties of water. There is no other real option.

Ah...the properties.....how do these properties exist accidentally for there to be a follow on?

What if the atoms that form water had never accidentally come together? What if some other liquid covered the planet instead? What are the odds of life ever appearing without it?

Where did the physical laws come from? Are they all just an amazing coincidence too? :shrug:
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Can I ask where the hydrogen and oxygen atoms came from? Were they always just floating about, waiting to become water?

Well, most hydrogen came from the early stages of the Big Bang (at least the nucleus, a proton, did) through decay of neutrons (ye, we can go back further, but at some point we don't know what happened). Oxygen is primarily formed inside of stars and so did not exist in abundance until the first generation of stars exploded or otherwise distributed what they had produced.

What a marriage! Imagine how many of them had to come together accidentally to cover the whole planet! Then somehow accidentally salt got thrown in.....how very convenient. What would happen to the oceans if there was no salt?

Well, we know that there are very large quantities of water in the various nebula where stars form. Yes, the hydrogen and oxygen come across each other 'randomly', but there is enough of each that this is predictable and gives a lot of water.

No land dweller can drink salty water so another convenient accident of nature provided the means to lift water from the ocean, condense it into clouds that can hold millions of tons of water, then float them over land to release their cargo.....giving life to vegetation and animals and man.....how many accidents so far, and we've only started. We haven't even mentioned how life began......

Yes, for any liquid there will be such a cycle. There are clouds of hydrocarbons on Saturn's moon Titan. They do a very similar convection circle, only for the local liquid on Titan. Not too special. Sorry.

Science seems so talented when predicting the existence of water on other planets....or even on the moon....and yet there is no real evidence of life anywhere but here.

We know there was liquid watr on Mars: we can see the erosion canals. We know there is water (ice) on the moon: we can detet it spectrographically. But we do NOT know the composition of any planet outside of our solar system. We know there is water in the nebula, so we strongly suspect that there are many planets with water (it is certainly around), but that isn't known yet (we simply don't have the resolution to tell for planets around other stars).

And again, of the thousands of other planets we have found over the last decade or two, we have details about NONE of them. They are simply too far to get such details with the instruments we currently have. So detecting microbial life (which would be the most common sort) is simplyimpossible at this time.


[QUOTE[Ah...the properties.....how do these properties exist accidentally for there to be a follow on?

What if the atoms that form water had never accidentally come together? What if some other liquid covered the planet instead? What are the odds of life ever appearing without it?[/QUOTE]

If some other conditions prevailed on Earth, life would not have formed here. But given the number of other planets, it almost certainly has formed somewhere else. No, we don't know that for certain right now. But it is only in the last couple of decades that we even knoew there are planets around other stars.

Where did the physical laws come from? Are they all just an amazing coincidence too? :shrug:

I think it is nonsense to speak of causes of the fundamental physical laws. Any explanation would require some deeper physical law.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Even if ' religions ' argue against birth control does Not mean the Bible does.
That really doesn't matter, does it? Many people take go forth and multiply to mean to have as many children as possible.

It's not my fault the bible is so vague that everything is open to interpretation.


I find Jesus taught us to pray Not for Armageddon to come, but for God's kingdom to come (thy kingdom come).

It's not my fault the bible is so vague that everything is open to interpretation.



That would be the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to come because Jesus is King/Ruler of God's Kingdom government.
So, instead of praying for Armageddon destruction, rather for the 'healing' of earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2.

It's not my fault the bible is so vague that everything is open to interpretation.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The interesting thing about conspiracy theories is that every now and then there is one that rings true ...
and you think we are gullible.....?
The making of money at the expense of suffering has been carried on for decades under the guise of competent medical treatment. ...
If you had done any real research, you would know this.

Keep on ranting if you must, but here is the result of your kind of thinking...


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...npox-outbreak-decades/?utm_term=.fb34df83deed
By Isaac Stanley-Becker
November 19
Chickenpox has taken hold of a school in North Carolina where many families claim religious exemption from vaccines.

Cases of chickenpox have been multiplying at the Asheville Waldorf School, which serves children from nursery school to sixth grade in Asheville, N.C. About a dozen infections grew to 28 at the beginning of the month. By Friday, there were 36, the Asheville Citizen-Times reported.

The outbreak ranks as the state’s worst since the chickenpox vaccine became available more than 20 years ago. Since then, the two-dose course has succeeded in limiting the highly contagious disease that once affected 90 percent of Americans — a public health breakthrough.

The school is a symbol of the small but strong movement against the most effective means of preventing the spread of infectious diseases. The percentage of children under 2 years old who haven’t received any vaccinations has quadrupled since 2001, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Some people believe that it's OK to let children needlessly get sick.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Imagine how many of them had to come together accidentally to cover the whole planet! Then somehow accidentally salt got thrown in.....how very convenient. What would happen to the oceans if there was no salt?

Do you think it is important for you to continually show you have absolutely no knowledge of nature? Really, it's no longer necessary. We get it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The Bible says that the whole world is ruled from behind the scenes by a powerful and evil entity who is bent on taking as many people as he can fool, down with him. Those who don't believe he exists are his primary dupes.

I have heard many unbelievers say, after witnessing or hearing about the depth of depravity demonstrated in certain events in history and in the world today, that they start to wonder about the existence of this evil force, because they understand that when something is described as "inhuman" that it probably does not originate with human thinking, but may be coming from a source of evil that is more powerful and is collectively influencing these poor excuses for human beings.
church_lady_could_it_be_satan.jpeg
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The Bible says that the whole world is ruled from behind the scenes by a powerful and evil entity who is bent on taking as many people as he can fool, down with him. Those who don't believe he exists are his primary dupes.

If it's good: GodDidIt
If it's bad: The Debil made me do it.

It's really sad that some people have such a simplistic view of the world.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well, most hydrogen came from the early stages of the Big Bang (at least the nucleus, a proton, did) through decay of neutrons (ye, we can go back further, but at some point we don't know what happened). Oxygen is primarily formed inside of stars and so did not exist in abundance until the first generation of stars exploded or otherwise distributed what they had produced.

Who or what caused the Big Bang? Can you rule out a Creator simply because his existence is not testable by current scientific methods?

Well, we know that there are very large quantities of water in the various nebula where stars form. Yes, the hydrogen and oxygen come across each other 'randomly', but there is enough of each that this is predictable and gives a lot of water.

How do you know there are very large quantities of water out there when you are so unsure about so many other things? When does science draw the line between what they "know" as compared to what they "believe" to be true at this moment?

Yes, for any liquid there will be such a cycle. There are clouds of hydrocarbons on Saturn's moon Titan. They do a very similar convection circle, only for the local liquid on Titan. Not too special. Sorry.

Cause and effect....right? For every effect there has to be a cause. But science cannot even entertain the thought of the very first cause of every process they know, being something they cannot quantify. It doesn't mean that such a cause cannot exist...only that they have no way to demonstrate his existence with their current knowledge. Isn't that true?

We know there was liquid watr on Mars: we can see the erosion canals. We know there is water (ice) on the moon: we can detet it spectrographically. But we do NOT know the composition of any planet outside of our solar system. We know there is water in the nebula, so we strongly suspect that there are many planets with water (it is certainly around), but that isn't known yet (we simply don't have the resolution to tell for planets around other stars).

Again, science seems to speak so confidently about things they cannot possibly know for sure. It is what they suspect to be correct until new evidence emerges to correct a wrong assumption. It's not terribly exact, is it?

And again, of the thousands of other planets we have found over the last decade or two, we have details about NONE of them. They are simply too far to get such details with the instruments we currently have. So detecting microbial life (which would be the most common sort) is simplyimpossible at this time.

And looking for microbial life is solely dependent on the assumption that life evolved on earth that way. But science does not know for sure that macro-evolution ever happened, taking microscopic organisms and assuming that all life (including the extinct, gigantic creatures of the past) evolved from them, given enough time....but we know they have no way to know for sure. They base their findings on what they 'believe' to have taken place in the past, based on what they can test and interpret in the present. It's mostly based on assumption, not facts.

If some other conditions prevailed on Earth, life would not have formed here. But given the number of other planets, it almost certainly has formed somewhere else. No, we don't know that for certain right now. But it is only in the last couple of decades that we even knoew there are planets around other stars.

Why was Earth the only planet in our solar system where life is not only found, but is seen in staggering variety and abundance? Is it just an accident that this is the "Goldilocks" planet?

When Genesis was written, no one knew about our place in the solar system or our place even in our own galaxy....yet there is so much in Genesis that only someone from outside of earth could know. The preparation of the planet itself from a state that was completely inhospitable to life, to the stages and order in which living things appeared. There was no way for the writer of Genesis to know these things.

I think it is nonsense to speak of causes of the fundamental physical laws. Any explanation would require some deeper physical law.

Well, I'd be surprised if you thought otherwise. You have a whole raft of knowledge accumulated in a system that has successfully eliminated all need for a Creator. The laws that govern everything just "are"....they need no author. Science seems to take so much for granted.

For every question I have....there are answers in the Bible. But science, having come to a vast amount of accumulated knowledge in relatively recent times, still grapples with the most fundamental question of all....where did life come from? I can confidently answer that question and all the other questions that naturally follow. In my conversations with evolutionists, it is clear that this question is swept under the carpet as if it isn't even important. To me, it is the most important question of all.

Religion, particularly YEC has done a lot of damage to the credibility of the creation account, but interestingly, the Bible itself does not promote YEC.

I can happily accept both the Bible and what science can actually prove. I don't have to accept either one or the other....I can comfortably accept both. I see the Creator as the one who is responsible for all that science studies.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Who or what caused the Big Bang? Can you rule out a Creator simply because his existence is not testable by current scientific methods?

And there may not *be* a cause for the BB. We don't know. If time doesn't exist before the BB, then causality is meaningless for it.

How do you know there are very large quantities of water out there when you are so unsure about so many other things? When does science draw the line between what they "know" as compared to what they "believe" to be true at this moment?

The strength of the evidence. We know the spectrum for water. It is distinctive. We can detect that spectrum in nebula. It really is that simple. We are unsure when the evidence isn't conclusive.


Cause and effect....right? For every effect there has to be a cause. But science cannot even entertain the thought of the very first cause of every process they know, being something they cannot quantify. It doesn't mean that such a cause cannot exist...only that they have no way to demonstrate his existence with their current knowledge. Isn't that true?

Well, there may not *be* a cause. Causality requires time. If time doesn't go back before the BB, then causality isn't even defined: it makes no sense. On the other extreme, if time goes infinitely far into the past, everything can have a cause, but there would be no 'first cause'. You make assumptions that are not justified.

Again, science seems to speak so confidently about things they cannot possibly know for sure. It is what they suspect to be correct until new evidence emerges to correct a wrong assumption. It's not terribly exact, is it?

We can know a lot more than you seem to think. It requires analyzing the evidence and understanding what can and cannot cause what we see.

And looking for microbial life is solely dependent on the assumption that life evolved on earth that way.
Simply false. We would look no matter what. That's how science works: test all the assumptions and see what the actual evidence says.

But science does not know for sure that macro-evolution ever happened, taking microscopic organisms and assuming that all life (including the extinct, gigantic creatures of the past) evolved from them, given enough time....but we know they have no way to know for sure. They base their findings on what they 'believe' to have taken place in the past, based on what they can test and interpret in the present. It's mostly based on assumption, not facts.

We *know* that the species alive at different times in the past have been different. We know the range of species alive has shifted over time. That *is* evolution. We may not know the specifics of the mechanisms, but that is quite different than knowing it happened in some form.

Why was Earth the only planet in our solar system where life is not only found, but is seen in staggering variety and abundance? Is it just an accident that this is the "Goldilocks" planet?

Well, the only other planets in the region where water can be liquid for long stretches are Mars and Venus, both just barely. It may well be (we don't know) that Mars once had life before it dried up (which happened because of its low gravity). Venus had a run-away greenhouse effect and isn't inhabitable.

When Genesis was written, no one knew about our place in the solar system or our place even in our own galaxy....yet there is so much in Genesis that only someone from outside of earth could know. The preparation of the planet itself from a state that was completely inhospitable to life, to the stages and order in which living things appeared. There was no way for the writer of Genesis to know these things.

And reading it makes it clear the authors didn't know.


Well, I'd be surprised if you thought otherwise. You have a whole raft of knowledge accumulated in a system that has successfully eliminated all need for a Creator. The laws that govern everything just "are"....they need no author. Science seems to take so much for granted.

Let me put it this way: is God caused? if not, you admit there is something that is not caused. Why not admit it is possible the universe is uncaused?

For every question I have....there are answers in the Bible. But science, having come to a vast amount of accumulated knowledge in relatively recent times, still grapples with the most fundamental question of all....where did life come from? I can confidently answer that question and all the other questions that naturally follow. In my conversations with evolutionists, it is clear that this question is swept under the carpet as if it isn't even important. To me, it is the most important question of all.

Yes, you have beliefs, but you have no actual evidence. Science requires evidence. It requires taking things slowly and figuring out e what the evidence we have actually says. Just having 'faith' short circuits that process of gaining knowledge. it means you cannot really test your ideas and challenge them: trying to prove them wrong. And yes, science does try to find the limits of its ideas: it actively tries to show where it is wrong.

Religion, particularly YEC has done a lot of damage to the credibility of the creation account, but interestingly, the Bible itself does not promote YEC.

I can happily accept both the Bible and what science can actually prove. I don't have to accept either one or the other....I can comfortably accept both. I see the Creator as the one who is responsible for all that science studies.
Well, good for you. I have my doubts that you can really accept whatever science concludes, but that is for you to resolve in your own mind.
 
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