The Miracles of Hamas

[Jeremy Taylor]

It's only point is to demonize the Palestinians. It serves the purpose if someone already hated them beforehand - as is the purpose of all apologetic literature.

See, now you are coming perilously close to equating attacking Hamas to attacking all Palestinians.

We know Hamas has done far worse than this, so, even if it is untrue in this instance, it is not beyond the realms of possibility it might be true.

 

[dust1n]

It's only point is to demonize the Palestinians. It serves the purpose if someone already hated them beforehand - as is the purpose of all apologetic literature.

Which would be a bit more tolerable if it wasn't the 27th thread for the same explicit purpose.

 

[dantech]

Who figured there would be confusion about what rocket hit what in the strongest day of airstrikes?

As far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been made clear what exactly happened. I assume most people assume it was a bomb, because Israel was air striking all day (or tank shell, I've heard both things mentioned). So, even let's say it was a notoriously genius plan on behalf of Hamas to bomb their own power supply and endanger their own fighters by making it more difficult to support themselves, most viewers are not going to be privy to whats going on, especially Western media outlets.

Secondly, it's not like Israel hasn't hit this particular power plant before in past conflicts.

Thirdly, it could have been an accident on a number of peoples parts.

Fourthly, an American organization (that I don't necessarily like) covered the thing through an insurance policy.

Fifthly, billions of dollars poured in to fix the place as fast as possible, since its sort of a humanitarian crises.

I mean, do I really need to keep going to illustrate what an insanely pointless thread this is?

The point of the thread is to show that Hamas exaggerates, and does everything they can to demonize Israel as much as possible. It's working, as you can see on these forums.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Obviously I am talking about Palestinians.

And how does it dehumanise and demonise them? Accepting that there is a clear distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people. You seem to be implying that thinking Hamas is despicable and acts evilly is to denigrate all Palestinians.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

See, now you are coming perilously close to equating attacking Hamas to attacking all Palestinians.

We know Hamas has done far worse than this, so, even if it is untrue in this instance, it is not beyond the realms of possibility it might be true.

[CMike has stated repeatedly on other threads that Palestinians should be punished for the actions of Hamas, because Hamas acts on behalf of all Palestinians.]

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

But I thought your comments were based on past baggage?

It is actually you in this thread who is coming closest to equating Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But I thought your comments were based on past baggage?

It is actually you in this thread who is coming closest to equating Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole.

That 'baggage' is very slight, and you have absolutely no basis to accuse me of making CMike's logical fallacies when I respond to him in his context. This thread does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[dust1n]

See, now you are coming perilously close to equating attacking Hamas to attacking all Palestinians. We know Hamas has done far worse than this, so, even if it is untrue in this instance, it is not beyond the realms of possibility it might be true.

Well, we know Israel has bombed the same power plant before in the past, so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they hit the power plant.

I guess we'll have to wait for evidence. :sarcastic But the fact that the power plant is up is not evidence for anything at all, despite the desperation in the OP for it to be so.

 

[dust1n]

The point of the thread is to show that Hamas exaggerates, and does everything they can to demonize Israel as much as possible. It's working, as you can see on these forums.

And Israel has never done that...

How gullible do you think we are? I know Hamas is a ****** organization. That doesn't mean I need to pay taxes to support some endless war on the other side of the world, neither party which I have any vested interest in at all. And I'm not light on critizing American when it knowingly risks hitting civilians time after time. Why would I feel different about Israel, or Hamas, or ISIL, or Assad, or Putin...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And Israel has never done that...

And if you can't find an example, you can always make some up...

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

That 'baggage' is very slight, and you have absolutely no basis to accuse me of making CMike's logical fallacies when I respond to him in his context. This thread does not exist in a vacuum.

The basis is you have accused the OP of demonising and dehumanising Palestinians as a whole, without really showing how it does this, seeing as it is almost entirely about Hamas' claims and their veracity.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The basis is you have accused the OP of demonising and dehumanising Palestinians as a whole, without really showing how it does this, seeing as it is almost entirely about Hamas' claims and their veracity.

It is self-congradulatory drivel that springs from hatred.

The sarcasm is not innocent, but acerbic. When the source is that biased, the information is almost never truthful. But the nature of the actual evidence is absolutely irrelevant to the thread.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

And Israel has never done that...

How gullible do you think we are? I know Hamas is a ****** organization. That doesn't mean I need to pay taxes to support some endless war on the other side of the world, neither party which I have any vested interest in at all. And I'm not light on critizing American when it knowingly risks hitting civilians time after time. Why would I feel different about Israel, or Hamas, or ISIL, or Assad, or Putin...

Israel had to defend itself. It couldn't have done so robustly, given the conditions in Gaza and the tactics of Hamas, without pretty much the results we have seen. It, generally, tried to avoid civilian causalities. But to expect it to allow hundreds of rockets to rain down on its citizens, who must dart to bomb shelters all the time, is absurd and smacks of dubious thinking and skewed priorities.

I agree civilians should never be targeted purposefully. I think the atom bombs should not have been dropped on Japan, for example. And all care should be taken to minimise civilian causalities. But this is something quite different. No country should be prevented from defending itself properly because its enemies hide amongst civilians.

 

[dust1n]

Israel had to defend itself. It couldn't have done so robustly, given the conditions in Gaza and the tactics of Hamas, without pretty much the results we have seen. It, generally, tried to avoid civilian causalities. But to expect it to allow hundreds of rockets to rain down on its citizens, who must dart to bomb shelters all the time, is absurd and smacks of dubious thinking and skewed priorities.

Of course, the reverse would also be true, no? But, I don't expect Israel to not respond when they are attacked. But trying to ironically spin the truth as to what happened at the power plant with no evidence at all is still just as dishonest as any other dishonest statement. And it's mostly annoying.

Also, I'm still not responsible for what happens in the ME, and I would prefer if my government stopped sending money and arms to any of the countires over there, because I have no vested interest in maintaining a foot hold in the ME, nor do I gain from it, yet, I will be expected to pay $100,000 dollars over the course of my life in taxes to pay or these little expediters.

But if you'd like to go join the fighting if you are so impassioned about it, I won't stop you. The meat grinder always need more meat.

I agree civilians should never be targeted purposefully. I think the atom bombs should not have been dropped on Japan, for example. And all care should be taken to minimise civilian causalities. But this is something quite different. No country should be prevented from defending itself properly because its enemies hide amongst civilians.

I'm not sure where anyone suggested otherwise.

 

[dantech]

And Israel has never done that...

There's free press in Israel. That makes it a little bit tougher to lie to the public. There are plenty of sources. When one lies, it's clear on the spot.

In Gaza however...

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Of course, the reverse would also be true, no?

I'm not sure what you mean.

But, I don't expect Israel to not respond when they are attacked. But trying to ironically spin the truth as to what happened at the power plant with no evidence at all is still just as dishonest as any other dishonest statement. And it's mostly annoying.

I recall the media mentioning the power plant was going to be down for a prolonged period. Given the general skewed reporting of the Western media on Gaza, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to suggest that was the general story about the power plant.

Also, I'm still not responsible for what happens in the ME, and I would prefer if my government stopped sending money and arms to any of the countires over there, because I have no vested interest in maintaining a foot hold in the ME, nor do I gain from it, yet, I will be expected to pay $100,000 dollars over the course of my life in taxes to pay or these little expediters.

But if you'd like to go join the fighting if you are so impassioned about it, I won't stop you. The meat grinder always need more meat.

I agree that the fighting in the ME has little to do with Britain or America. But that doesn't mean one cannot take an opinion on it. You clearly have, as have I.

I'm not sure where anyone suggested otherwise.

You seemed to imply so when you talked about criticising those who knowingly risk hitting civilians. That is not the criterion of who is wrong in these conflicts. It is legitimate to risk hitting civilians if that is absolutely necessary for proper defence. That is my point. Most of the silly condemnations of Israel in the recent conflict completely ignore this.

 

[s2a]

The power plant that was completely destroyed in Gaza, and would take over a year to get it running again, is now operational.

Wow. What a miracle.

Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News: "Destroyed" Gaza power plant miraculously repaired

"Destroyed" Gaza power plant miraculously repaired

​

The Guardian reported on July 29:

Flames and clouds of black smoke billowed over Gaza's only power plant on after it was destroyed during the most relentless and widespread Israeli bombardment of the current conflict.

"The power plant is finished," said its director, Mohammed al-Sharif, signalling a new crisis for Gaza's 1.8 million people, who were already enduring power cuts of more than 20 hours a day.

Amnesty International said the crippling of the power station amounted to "collective punishment of Palestinians". The strike on the plant will worsen already severe problems with Gaza's water supply, sewage treatment and power supplies to medical facilities.

"We need at least one year to repair the power plant, the turbines, the fuel tanks and the control room," said Fathi Sheik Khalil of the Gaza energy authority. "Everything was burned." He said crew members who had been trapped by the fire for several hours were evacuated.
​

It wasn't only The Guardian that said this. The Times (UK), Haaretz, the ICRC,and many others reported that the power plant was "destroyed."

Israel denied attacking the power plant or having bombed anything in the vicinity that day but that news was barely reported outside being buried in a single CNN report. That didn't stop Amnesty and HRW from blaming Israel for the attack, and not one media outlet or NGO even considered that Hamas may have attacked Gaza infrastructure and been guilty of war crimes in order to increase suffering - which was a major part of its war strategy.

As recently as two weeks ago, the PA continued to blame Israel for the supposed destruction of the power plant. The PA claimed that "the energy sector needed $250 million after the Strip's only power plant was destroyed by two Israeli missiles."

I guess there has been a miracle, then.

Gaza's only power plant is ready to begin running again as soon as a shipment of fuel arrives to the Strip, the plant's executive manager said Saturday.

Walid Saad Sayil said at a news conference that he was waiting on a response from President Mahmoud Abbas' office on providing fuel to run the plant.

Sayil expects to hear back from either Ramallah or Qatar within 48 hours regarding a fuel shipment, he said.
​

Within two weeks the power plant went from being completely destroyed to being ready to work. All the reports from the major media and NGOs were found to be quite wrong.

People were lied to.

:clap:clap:clap

Bodies that are supposed to be dead were moving. Maybe they are zoombies.

Another miracle. :clap:clap:clap

[youtube]tPaq_TNEYwY[/youtube]

It's utterly amazing.

And the family that was killed on the Gaza beach was fabricated.

[youtube]zfM6oYW3arY[/youtube]

A miracle!

What else could explain it?

 

[dust1n]

There's free press in Israel. That makes it a little bit tougher to lie to the public.

I live in America. The free press makes it easier to lie. In fact, things remain just as unclear as ever.

There are plenty of sources. When one lies, it's clear on the spot.

In Gaza however...

Is this suppose to be an argument for why its okay to be dishonest or something? I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at.

The power plant is still damaged. It still has to be repaired. And the little blog that's spreading around the internet now is not only dishonest because the power plant had already been up, working, the day after the strike, and insinuates that Hamas attacked it, without any evidence to back it up.

 

[dust1n]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Palestinians have to defend themselves, back, no?

I recall the media mentioning the power plant was going to be down for a prolonged period. Given the general skewed reporting of the Western media on Gaza, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to suggest that was the general story about the power plant.

Well, I'm sorry the ominous media misled you. Apparently, that's the great thing about free speech.

I agree that the fighting in the ME has little to do with Britain or America. But that doesn't mean one cannot take an opinion on it. You clearly have, as have I.

I really don't have an opinion. I don't like Hamas. I don't like the IDF. I don't like any of the military leaders of any of those countries. My opinion is, I shouldn't be the way paying for it, nor should numerous of other future American generations who have no say but will foot the seemingly infinite bill.

You seemed to imply so when you talked about criticising those who knowingly risk hitting civilians. That is not the criterion of who is wrong in these conflicts. It is legitimate to risk hitting civilians if that is absolutely necessary for proper defence. That is my point. Most of the silly condemnations of Israel in the recent conflict completely ignore this.

I'm not a fan of collateral damage. If you know a certain ratio (in this case 75+%) of deaths are going to accidental civilian causalities, than you know you are going to kill those civilians. And all that collateral damage will forever push more orphans into being future soldiers for a meat grinder that means nothing.

Three kids get kidnapped and murdered. Israel comes in and arrests 250 people.

Israel blames Hamas. Hamas claimed to have nothing to do with it.

Two airstrikes (or tank shells) hit a power plant in Gaza during the more fighting intensive day during the conflict.

Palestinians blame Israel. Israel claimed to have nothing to do with it.

No evidence necessary, just perpetual war, with a hand full people making lots of money either off the people of this war, or by having the foot billed by the American public.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Palestinians have to defend themselves, back, no?

Well, firstly, they are the aggressors, or Hamas is. Secondly, they cannot target civilians purposefully.

I'm not a fan of collateral damage. If you know a certain ratio (in this case 75+%) of deaths are going to accidental civilian causalities, than you know you are going to kill those civilians. And all that collateral damage will forever push more orphans into being future soldiers for a meat grinder that means nothing.

Three kids get kidnapped and murdered. Israel comes in and arrests 250 people.

Israel blames Hamas. Hamas claimed to have nothing to do with it.

Two airstrikes (or tank shells) hit a power plant in Gaza during the more fighting intensive day during the conflict.

Palestinians blame Israel. Israel claimed to have nothing to do with it.

No evidence necessary, just perpetual war, with a hand full people making lots of money either off the people of this war, or by having the foot billed by the American public.

What you are saying is that Israel shouldn't defend itself properly. That is the only conclusion if you think civilian causalities must be proportionate, given the situation in Gaza and tactics of Hamas.

And Hamas are the aggressors.