The Morality of Capitalism

[Kooky]

"<capitalism> respects individuals, their rights, and their pursuit of happiness"

Because companies would never try to mislead, cheat, or take advantage of consumers.

If capitalism isn't working the way its propaganda makes us believe it should, then we'll be sure to find that all blame for that lies with some government bureaucrat or leftist, and definitely not the people running the actual businesses violating rules and rights.

 

[Nakosis]

It may look silly in your eyes, but others might have a different perspective.

At least, give me something substantial I can respond to. Don't just drop off a cheap shot and leave me hanging. Have a heart.

My point is capitalism is not immoral either. So whatever moral/immoral discussions one would have about capitalism lacks understanding of capitalism.
The discussion should be about its economic benefits/pitfalls.

 

[muhammad_isa]

My point is capitalism is not immoral either. So whatever moral/immoral discussions one would have about capitalism lacks understanding of capitalism.
The discussion should be about its economic benefits/pitfalls.

It is not capitalism itself that is immoral.
It is a particular system that might be immoral .. such as a system based on usury, for example.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I prefer my freedoms.

Watch how sorry they will become once the honeymoon is over.

It's just a preference. They prefer happiness. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Sand Dancer]

What freedoms have European countries exchanged for functional social security systems?

Making oodles and gobs of money, having a large flashy car and a compound-like home.

 

[Stevicus]

My point is capitalism is not immoral either. So whatever moral/immoral discussions one would have about capitalism lacks understanding of capitalism.
The discussion should be about its economic benefits/pitfalls.

Economic systems are really about political systems, which relates to philosophy, in which questions of morality/immorality are perfectly valid. As for who lacks understanding of capitalism, it's usually those who don't understand the relationship between economics and politics. Some people think that economic systems exist in a vacuum, but such is not the case.

But yeah, if we want to discuss economic benefits/pitfalls on a purely amoral basis, we can do that, too.

 

[Kooky]

Making oodles and gobs of money, having a large flashy car and a compound-like home.

Last time I checked, there are still millionaires and billionaires living there. Many European countries even waive their usually very restrictive residency and naturalization rules for these people!

 

[Sand Dancer]

Last time I checked, there are still millionaires and billionaires living there. Many European countries even waive their usually very restrictive residency and naturalization rules for these people!

I was playing devil's advocate. I would like to see Twilight's answer. I love that Europeans use their bicycles so much. Very cool.

 

[Kooky]

Watch how sorry they will become once the honeymoon is over.

That honeymoon of... 50-60+ years, depending on what country we're talking about?

 

[Nakosis]

Economic systems are really about political systems, which relates to philosophy, in which questions of morality/immorality are perfectly valid. As for who lacks understanding of capitalism, it's usually those who don't understand the relationship between economics and politics. Some people think that economic systems exist in a vacuum, but such is not the case.

But yeah, if we want to discuss economic benefits/pitfalls on a purely amoral basis, we can do that, too.

So the political system in the US is a representative democracy. It is not capitalism. Of course whatever political you have needs to deal with the economy. China for example has a communistic political system with a capitalist economic system.
IOW an economic system is not tied to any political system.

For socialism, perhaps it is both a political system and a economic system? Capitalism however, I don't think you could define it as a political system in a way that would make sense.

 

[Kooky]

So the political system in the US is a representative democracy. It is not capitalism.

It is both, which creates the intrinsic tension of Western society between nominal equality before the law, and a hierarchy that sorts people from top to bottom.

We frequently call this society "liberal democracy".

For socialism, perhaps it is both a political system and a economic system?

Nope, you could have the whole gamut of political systems with a socialist economy just like you can with capitalist economics, and many more, even - it's just that Americans discussing socialisms frequently limit the topic to the authoritarian Marxist-Leninist model.

Sadly, most attempts at democratic socialist systems have been crushed militarily by capitalist authoritarianism.

 

[Stevicus]

So the political system in the US is a representative democracy. It is not capitalism. Of course whatever political you have needs to deal with the economy. China for example has a communistic political system with a capitalist economic system.
IOW an economic system is not tied to any political system.

For socialism, perhaps it is both a political system and a economic system? Capitalism however, I don't think you could define it as a political system in a way that would make sense.

An economic system can not exist without a political system. Our economic system is a manifestation of laws and policies enacted by government. Taxes are set by the government. Interest rates are governed by the Fed. The printing of money and its backing come from government. Trade policies are a function of government. Interstate commerce is another function of government. Rules and regulations regarding markets in order to ensure fairness are also made by government. If you're a business owner and someone comes in and steals all your stuff, you're likely going to call the government.

On what basis have you decided that economic systems are not tied to political systems?

 

[Nakosis]

An economic system can not exist without a political system. Our economic system is a manifestation of laws and policies enacted by government. Taxes are set by the government. Interest rates are governed by the Fed. The printing of money and its backing come from government. Trade policies are a function of government. Interstate commerce is another function of government. Rules and regulations regarding markets in order to ensure fairness are also made by government. If you're a business owner and someone comes in and steals all your stuff, you're likely going to call the government.

On what basis have you decided that economic systems are not tied to political systems?

Not tied to a specific political system. IOW both democracy and communism can have an economic system base on capitalism.

 

[Nakosis]

It is both, which creates the intrinsic tension of Western society between nominal equality before the law, and a hierarchy that sorts people from top to bottom.

We frequently call this society "liberal democracy".


Nope, you could have the whole gamut of political systems with a socialist economy just like you can with capitalist economics, and many more, even - it's just that Americans discussing socialisms frequently limit the topic to the authoritarian Marxist-Leninist model.

Sadly, most attempts at democratic socialist systems have been crushed militarily by capitalist authoritarianism.

Ok, that what I thought was correct.

 

[Revoltingest]

....communism can have an economic system base on capitalism.

Whuh?
That requires some explanation.

 

[Nakosis]

Whuh?
That requires some explanation.

China, they claim to be communist and capitalist.
But isn’t the whole idea of capitalism and profit anathema to the central tenets of communism? And if so, how did these two opposites attract? In the wake of then Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping’s 1978 reforms, a great discovery of applied politics was made in China: that you can have capitalism without democracy. Spotting a gap in the market of ideas, Deng decreed that “to get rich is glorious”, meaning that capitalism was ideologically neutral and could serve the needs of a communist regime.
How China combined authoritarianism with capitalism to create a new communism

IDK, maybe it is some weird hybrid like democratic socialism.

 

[Nakosis]

Deng brought collective farming to an end, and allowed farmers to sell surplus crops for profit. Foreign trade and investment were encouraged, and investors were given tax concessions in return for revenue and technical knowledge in special economic zones (SEZs) in Southern China.
“Never before in history have so many people escaped poverty in such a short time,” said Forbes.
https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/china/954989/is-china-capitalist

Apparently capitalism has saved the communist nation of China.

 

[Stevicus]

Not tied to a specific political system. IOW both democracy and communism can have an economic system base on capitalism.

It seems to me that the key component of capitalism involves a government guaranteeing property rights, to some degree or another. Property rights relate to a philosophical position, which would make it political, in my opinion.

Under such a system, a government need not guarantee any other rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to vote, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to be free of search and seizure, etc. All of those can go away under a capitalist system, as long as private property rights remain. The government's main essential role then becomes protection, whether it's national defense or domestic law enforcement. That, and mediating contract disputes.

It doesn't even have to apply to everyone, nor does it need to guarantee fairness or equality. That's how countries like the U.S. could still have slavery and be considered capitalist, since white male property rights were still guaranteed.

After all, if capitalists are going to invest anything at all, they'll want some reasonable assurance that the government isn't going to seize their property and take all their money. Capitalists don't seem to like things like that, however amoral they might be. Above all else, a capitalist system relies upon that promise from government (or whatever political authority happens to be in place). Without that, capitalism isn't possible. Of course, there are societies which may exist underground, outside the law or outside the realm of any established, recognized government. But even they might subscribe to some alternate form of social contract, depending on the society and their set of values.

It can be said that politics is as essential to human interactions and transactions as much as language is essential.

 

[Revoltingest]

China, they claim to be communist and capitalist.

Maybe it's Engrish.

 

[Stevicus]

China, they claim to be communist and capitalist.
But isn’t the whole idea of capitalism and profit anathema to the central tenets of communism? And if so, how did these two opposites attract? In the wake of then Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping’s 1978 reforms, a great discovery of applied politics was made in China: that you can have capitalism without democracy. Spotting a gap in the market of ideas, Deng decreed that “to get rich is glorious”, meaning that capitalism was ideologically neutral and could serve the needs of a communist regime.
How China combined authoritarianism with capitalism to create a new communism

IDK, maybe it is some weird hybrid like democratic socialism.

It seems that the Chinese Communists started to become a bit more ideologically flexible after Mao's death. Not so much in terms of democracy, though.

Don't forget that in the early days of the Soviet Union, Lenin implemented the New Economic Policy, which was somewhat capitalistic. There's no telling what direction it might have taken if not for Lenin's untimely death.