The Myths of Christianity

[outhouse]

So you are just dismissing the information that doesn't agree with your point of view. I see no point to continue then.

face it, your wrong on this one Dustin.

congradulation's, youve supplied a small sect. if you found more information simular, i'd be all ears. No really you have my attention now that you have a sliver of what you stated there may be hope for you.

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion

 

[fallingblood]

face it, your wrong on this one Dustin.

congradulation's, youve supplied a small sect. if you found more information simular, i'd be all ears. No really you have my attention now that you have a sliver of what you stated there may be hope for you.

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion

It really isn't worth trying to debate with you on this. I tried. I gave you an article, I have you verses, I gave you a general time period and at least one group (which does signify that the idea was present). Yet you dismiss my article, ignore the verses, dismiss the group, and refuse to actually show why I am wrong. You have yet, in our conversation, supply any verses.

So why should I go on when you won't even debate in a worthwhile manner? You act like you are some type of expert on this subject, and that you have to be right. Really then, it is useless to go on, especially when you refuse to address most of what I have said or provide verses that support you point of view.

 

[outhouse]

It really isn't worth trying to debate with you on this. I tried. I gave you an article, I have you verses, I gave you a general time period and at least one group (which does signify that the idea was present). Yet you dismiss my article, ignore the verses, dismiss the group, and refuse to actually show why I am wrong. You have yet, in our conversation, supply any verses.

So why should I go on when you won't even debate in a worthwhile manner? You act like you are some type of expert on this subject, and that you have to be right. Really then, it is useless to go on, especially when you refuse to address most of what I have said or provide verses that support you point of view.

I have supplied a mountain of evidence in support of the ancient hebrews view of a afterlife.

in fact, I just supplied you more. why do you ignore this??? because you stepped in it and I called you on it :thud:

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion

 

[outhouse]

define, Gehenna

define, sheol

define, Olam ba ha

define, Gan Eden


are these all christian terms??


does not every ONE of these terms originate in the ancient hebrew culture?

and does not everyone of them deal with a afterlife????

 

[outhouse]

this phrase here proves where your wrong Dustin.

Difference between you and me, is I will admit when im wrong

Jewish eschatology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


please pay attention.

Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world (Olam Ha'zeh — "this world"), all of classical Judaism posits an afterlife



and this phrase

While all classic rabbinic sources discuss the afterlife

 

[URAVIP2ME]

please pay attention.
Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world (Olam Ha'zeh — "this world"), all of classical Judaism posits an afterlife
and this phrase
While all classic rabbinic sources discuss the afterlife

Josephus reported the Jewish sect of the Essenes believed souls are immortal.
Like the opinion of the Greeks [pagans] ....they allot the bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments.

Apocryphal writings crept into 2nd-century Christianity. [Acts 20vs29,30]

Interesting back in 1995 the Doctrine Commission for the Church of England said: 'that the only end is total non-being'.
Total non-being as in destruction forever is slated for the wicked according to Psalms 92v7.

The 'afterlife' of Scripture is Not a deathless soul, but dead souls being resurrected. Resurrected to either heaven or resurrected on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.


-Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23

 

[outhouse]

Josephus reported the Jewish sect of the Essenes believed souls are immortal.
Like the opinion of the Greeks [pagans] ....they allot the bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments.

Apocryphal writings crept into 2nd-century Christianity. [Acts 20vs29,30]

Interesting back in 1995 the Doctrine Commission for the Church of England said: 'that the only end is total non-being'.
Total non-being as in destruction forever is slated for the wicked according to Psalms 92v7.

The 'afterlife' of Scripture is Not a deathless soul, but dead souls being resurrected. Resurrected to either heaven or resurrected on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.


-Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23

that ill also confirm and agree on.



they did follow that and more

 

[arcanum]

you believe wrong again.

Afterlife - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The afterlife (also referred to as life after death, the Hereafter, the Next World, or the Other Side) is the belief that a part of, or essence of, or soul of an individual, which carries with it and confers personal identity, survives the death of the body of this world and this lifetime, by natural or supernatural means, in contrast to the belief in eternal oblivion after death. In some popular views, this continued existence often takes place in a spiritual realm, and in other popular views, the individual may be reborn into this world and begin the life cycle over again. In this latter view, such rebirths and deaths may take place over and over again continuously until the individual gains entry to a spiritual realm. Major views on the afterlife derive from religion, esotericism and metaphysics.



now that we have the definition out of the way, maybe you can pay attention to the real evidence


The Talmud offers a number of thoughts relating to the afterlife.


The Book of Enoch describes Sheol as divided into four compartments for four types of the dead: the faithful saints who await resurrection in Paradise


The book of 2 Maccabees gives a clear account of the dead awaiting a future resurrection and judgment


The Zohar describes Gehenna not as a place of punishment for the wicked but as a place of spiritual purification for souls.


Jewish mystics who believed in reincarnation simply accepted it as a divine reality.


Rabbi Shraga Simmons commented that within the Bible itself, the idea [of reincarnation] is intimated in Deut. 25:5-10, Deut. 33:6 and Isaiah 22:14, 65:6

"Let Reuben live and not die..." (Deuteronomy 33:6) to mean that Reuben should merit the World to Come directly, and not have to die again as result of being reincarnated.


, Nachmanides (Ramban 1195-1270), attributed Job's suffering to reincarnation, as hinted in Job's saying "God does all these things twice or three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit to...the light of the living' (Job 33:29,30)."[






World to Come - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The World to Come, or more properly the Hebrew transliteration Olam Haba, is an important part of Jewish eschatology. Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world (Olam HaZeh — "this world"), all of classical Judaism posits an afterlife.[citation needed] The Hereafter is known as Olam HaBa (the "world to come"), Gan Eden (the Heavenly "Garden of Eden") and Gehinom ("Purgatory").[1][2][3] According to religious Judaism, any non-Jew who lives according to the Seven Laws of Noah is regarded as a Righteous Gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come, the final reward of the righteous.





from 1200 BC to 600 BC ancient hebrews were polytheistic. And every religion that influenced their religion had a concept of a afterlife.

There is no reason at all to think they were magically different.

Your trying to demonstrate that the ancient Hebrews had a belief in the afterlife by citing Apocrypha, the Talmud, and the kabbalah all of which definitely don't represent the teachings of the ancient Hebrews but came after the captivity, sometimes way after. The most important writings to the Jews is the Torah, if there was a belief in an afterlife it should be spelled out there. Can you use the Torah to clearly demonstrate an ancient Jewish belief in the afterlife?

 

[outhouse]

Your trying to demonstrate that the ancient Hebrews had a belief in the afterlife by citing Apocrypha, the Talmud, and the kabbalah all of which definitely don't represent the teachings of the ancient Hebrews but came after the captivity, sometimes way after. The most important writings to the Jews is the Torah, if there was a belief in an afterlife it should be spelled out there. Can you use the Torah to clearly demonstrate an ancient Jewish belief in the afterlife?

I was waiting for this to come up. good catch.


im on my way out the door but much of the script ive produced is early. with that said remember from 1200BC to roughly 600 BC they were polytheistic and hadnt developed strict monotheism to Yahweh. after about what 628 BC the early OT went through a heavy redaction as they switched to montheism.

 

[outhouse]

Gehenna

sheol

Gan Eden


do any of these 3 exist in early text, if so you have a view of their limited afterlife.

again its silly to think they did not, when so far only one small hated sect has been noted clearly as not viewing a afterlife.


If you could find more sects like that id be game. so far they dont exist

 

[arcanum]

Gehenna

sheol

Gan Eden


do any of these 3 exist in early text, if so you have a view of their limited afterlife.

again its silly to think they did not, when so far only one small hated sect has been noted clearly as not viewing a afterlife.


If you could find more sects like that id be game. so far they dont exist

As far as an ancient hebrew idea of an afterlife is concerned I think you've said enough and as has been mentioned by falling blood you keep repeating yourself without providing any new or definitive proof on the subject. I think we need some new blood here to weigh in the subject.

 

[work in progress]

As far as an ancient hebrew idea of an afterlife is concerned I think you've said enough and as has been mentioned by falling blood you keep repeating yourself without providing any new or definitive proof on the subject. I think we need some new blood here to weigh in the subject.

The phrase "beating a dead horse" comes to mind! Some people will not give up on a strong belief regardless of contrary evidence. I'm used to seeing this from people trying to protect religious or metaphysical beliefs, but this goes to show that many who view themselves as rationalists are just as prone to being trapped in a state of denial as anyone else.

 

[outhouse]

Gehenna

sheol

Gan Eden


do any of these 3 exist in early text??



answer the question, because you both sound like your looking in a mirror

 

[outhouse]

And if you cant find any more sect of ancient hebrews like the Sadducees, then the Sadducees is all you have.


Show me more, I have a open mind.

 

[outhouse]

One thing I hate is ignorance of those who ramble off what they do not know.

here is a more in depth view of Hebrews and the afterlife.


refute this if you can

The Hebrew Scriptures' teachings on the afterlife: liberal viewpoint



This essay describes a common liberal interpretation of the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews concerning life after death. A conservative interpretation is explained elsewhere on this web site.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica].Judaism before 623 BCE. The ancient Israelites originally followed a polytheistic religion; their beliefs were identical to other Semitic peoples. The dead were believed to have led type of shadowy existence under the earth, without energy, and separated from God. People worshipped both their ancestors in the underworld and many Sky Gods in heaven..[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Judaism from 623 to 586 BCE:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]from the introduction of monotheism to the Babylonian captivity. Belief in the gods of the underworld and ancestor worship ended. Polytheistic belief was abandoned. Yahweh alone is worshiped. They continued to believe that the dead lead a shadowy, totally isolated existence under the earth in Sheol, cut off from their relatives and from God.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Judaism from 586 to 332 BCE: from the Babylonian captivity to the Greek invasion: Zoroastrian religious ideas are incorporated into the Jewish beliefs about Sheol. The faithful dead are viewed as being resurrected, to live a second life in a cleansed Jerusalem for 500 years. Then, they die, are annihilated, and are no more.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Judaism during and after the Greek occupation. All the dead will be resurrected. They will be judged by God and sent either to an eternal reward or never-ending punishment. The Christian religion, having been founded by Jews, continued much of this belief system.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

[/FONT]​

Beliefs in Israel, up to 623 BCE:

Centuries ago, scholars coined the term "Semitic" to refer to a group of civilizations in the Middle East which originally shared a similar language, culture and religion. These included the Assyrians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Hebrews, Phoenicians, etc. Prior to the official introduction of monotheism in ancient Israel by King Josiah in 623 BCE, Jewish beliefs about their Gods, the universe, and life after death appear to have paralleled closely those of the other Semitic cultures. The people interacted with the many "sky gods" in heaven and the "infernal deities" in the underworld:


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The universe was conceived as consisting of 4 layers: a more or less flat earth floating on water, large caverns under the earth, a sky in the form of a dome over earth, and a heaven above the dome. Multiple "sky gods" resided in heaven. A set of infernal deities lived under the earth, ruled over by a deity named "Mot".[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]At a person's death, their soul went to live underneath the earth, in a place called Sheol, or "the Pit" or "Earth." (A person's "soul" was believed to represent both their body and spirit).[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Various English Bible version translate the Hebrew word "Sheol" as Grave, Hell or Pit; some leave it as Sheol.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Some of the dead became minor deities in Sheol. Their descendents who placed regular offerings of food and water on their tombs would reap blessings from these gods. Those who ignored their ancestors would be ignored or even harmed as punishment.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The dead who received regular offerings from their descendents occupied the upper levels of Sheol, where life was easier. Those who were not remembered sank lower in the depths of the Pit. Those who had been improperly buried were sent to the lowest, most unpleasant area.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The people worshiped multiple sky gods in public rituals. They also communicated with the gods of the netherworld in private, family rituals in which their ancestors were venerated.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The dead could also be accessed through necromancy. 1 Samuel 28:7-20 describes how King Saul persuaded a medium at Endor to contact the spirit of the deceased Samuel in order to predict the future.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]If some favor was to be asked of the gods by the entire nation or community, the the priests conducted a public ritual. Adequate rain to grow the crops, or victory over neighboring tribes were common examples. If a favor for a family or an individual was sought, then a private ritual was conducted, to seek support from some of the inhabitants of Sheol. A long life and many children were common examples.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The dead of all nations and all walks of life were sent to Sheol. There was no judgment day. All individuals ended up in Sheol after death - both those who had led a righteous and those who were evil while on earth. See Genesis 42:38 and Numbers 16:30-33.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]They believed that the inhabitants of Sheol were abandoned forever: [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]A Psalm for the Sons of Korah petitions God to save the writer from his expected death. "...my life draws near To Sheol. I am reckoned among those who go down to the Pit; I am a man who has no strength, like one forsaken among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, like those whom thou dost remember no more, for they are cutoff from thy hand." Psalms 88:3-5[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"You [God] restored me to health and let me live...In your love you kept me from the pit of destruction...For...those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." Isaiah 38:16-18. (NIV)[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Since the plight of the dead was so discouraging, ancient Israelites believed that God rewarded a righteous man with a long life and many offspring. This is mentioned frequently in the Hebrew Scriptures, including Psalms 127:3-5.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]The ancient Hebrews had no concept of heaven. The dead who had led the most righteous lives were not taken to be with God after death. (Enoch and Elijah were exceptions. They were directly taken up to heaven to be with God. They never died; they never went to Sheol). See Genesis 5:24.[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Most writers of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) portrayed Sheol as a grim place. Its inhabitants were seen as living a type of shadowy existence for all eternity. It was dark. "The dead existed without thought, strength, or even consciousness." 1 [/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Sheol is not at all related to the Christian Hell. There is no unending torture of humans there; just a ghostly existence. In its original form, there was a great deal of interaction between people living on earth and the inhabitants of Sheol.[/FONT]

 

[arcanum]

First of all I provided that very link in a previous post. Here read this outhouse, many of the important concepts central to judiasm and in turn Christianity were borrowed from the Zoroastrians.
Evolution of heaven and hell in the Bible from Zoroastrianism – Good news for the fearful

 

[outhouse]

First of all I provided that very link in a previous post.

excellent, it seems some people forgot to read it the first time around.

Here read this outhouse

done

many of the important concepts central to judiasm and in turn Christianity were borrowed from the Zoroastrians

I cant really argue that, only to what degree. I would like to say that there was some degree of syncretism between the two as well.

 

[Muffled]

I beleive that what was revealed by God in the Hebrew scriptures about death is the truth about death.

That is why we JW's dont believe in an afterlife....the scriptures are Gods word and Gods word is true above all others. Just because some jews ''evolved''their ideas later on does not mean those ideas are true. It just means they adopted ideas from pagan nations around them such as the greeks. You will not find those ideas anywhere in the hebrew scriptures because God is the author of the hebrew scriptures, not the jews.

So the concept is that old ignorance is better than new truth. I would expect that kind of thinking from memeber of certain sects. Of course that means that Jesus has to be ignored as though He were just anignorant preacher who was too influenced by Greeks. Maybe that is why some people beleive menbers of a certain sect aren't really Christians.

 

[Muffled]

First of all I provided that very link in a previous post. Here read this outhouse, many of the important concepts central to judiasm and in turn Christianity were borrowed from the Zoroastrians.
Evolution of heaven and hell in the Bible from Zoroastrianism – Good news for the fearful

That is not proof. It is mere speculation. The truth is that Daniel was a prophet of God, so if the issue showed up in Zaroastrianism, God would settle it for Daniel. The concept does not lose veracity having come from a different religion, as long as God verifies it.

 

[arcanum]

That is not proof. It is mere speculation. The truth is that Daniel was a prophet of God, so if the issue showed up in Zaroastrianism, God would settle it for Daniel. The concept does not lose veracity having come from a different religion, as long as God verifies it.

Daniel was really the first prophet to speak more definitively about an afterlife but of course he was post exile. The book of Daniel really ushered in a lot of apocalyptic literature and had a big influence on the early jesus movement and probably the Essenes as well. A good book to read that talks about the evolution of Jewish thought regarding the afterlife is a book called Heaven by lisa miller, who is Jewish. It's basically an exploration of the different belief's on the afterlife and provides some good history and perspective on the subject.