The Myths of Christianity

[outhouse]

That's incorrect. Some ancient Hebrews had an idea of an afterlife but many didn't. More so, some did have a view of an afterlife comparable to the Christian view.

here I asked you who, the many were? and when? what period was this lack of belief exactly.


if you cannot answer this, you have failed to make your point.

 

[fallingblood]

Until you can refute this you have failed.


you have also failed to show a period in which any hebrew has not believed in a soul.



Since they have always believed in a soul and a afterlife. You cannot refute it with scripture stating a physical body dies.

Why would I have to refute that? It simply states that Sheol is their earliest idea of an afterlife. It doesn't say it always was the idea, or that it was with them from the beginning. More so, if we just look at the meaning, grave, it would not be a stretch to see that the idea of Sheol developed simply by placing people into a grave and then later on expanding it.

Now, as I have said, just because one believes in a soul, that doesn't mean they believe the soul exists after we are dead or eternal. You made the claim about the soul. You need to back it up. Provide some scripture.

As for the afterlife, I have shown verses that presuppose that death is the end. Another user should a verse that said a soul can die. You have continually refused to address the verses I supplied, and even claimed I didn't supply any. Yet you haven't supplied anything in our conversation. So back up your claims with some scripture.

As for a period when, I did mention the Sadducees a number of times. They did not believe in an afterlife. Giving a specific group should be good enough here. As for a specific time period (which is a ridiculous argument. In what way does me not supplying a time period take away from my argument? That simply is not logical, and I think shows that you are just reaching now (which also explains your dismissals of information and refusal to cite some scripture)), we just have to look at the books of the Bible that I cited. Job, Psalms, and Genesis. All are earlier books. They all occur before the time of the Greek occupation. Partially within the Babylonian captivity time. And before that to a point. Not a specific time (and it is impossible to say as there are differing opinions on the dating of this material) but gives a general overlook

 

[outhouse]

I have shown verses that presuppose that death is the end.

no you have not

you have not shown ANY verse that claims the soul dies with the body.

you have only that a physical body dies it stays

christians say close to the same thing.

 

[outhouse]

No where here does it ever state that when a body dies so does the soul.

No where does it state a time period in which any hebrew ever though a soul does not exist when the physical body dies.


you have yet to back up your claim




Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah.

 

[work in progress]

no you have not

you have not shown ANY verse that claims the soul dies with the body.

you have only that a physical body dies it stays

christians say close to the same thing.

I think you've been shown about a hundred of so far, and your refusal to consider the likelihood that Judaism and Christianity have different/contradictory concepts of death and afterlife.

Do you read the links yourself that you post for others to read through? You posted the Wiki page on Ecclesiastes earlier, and this is what it contains under the subheading:

Death and afterlife

A great portion of the book concerns itself with death. Qoheleth emphatically affirms human mortality, going so far as to say that the dead in sheol know nothing...........
The author of Ecclesiastes appears agnostic on the concept of an afterlife. Indeed, he writes “All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?” (Ecclesiastes 3:20-21).
​

 

[outhouse]

and your refusal to consider the likelihood that Judaism and Christianity have different/contradictory concepts of death and afterlife.

you have to be able to follow a thread if you want to participate.

I stated early on the ancient hebrews afterlife was different then christianity.


there for im not sure you even know what your talking about. Now if you want a piece of the debate then I would ask you to refute why Gehenna and Sheol are known as places souls go after death.

 

[outhouse]

Do you read the links yourself that you post for others to read through? You posted the Wiki page on Ecclesiastes earlier, and this is what it contains under the subheading:

Death and afterlife

​

your own link proves you wrong again.

even here you have comprehension issues.

it speaks of afterlife within these scriptures.


This view has been disputed, as Solomon's father, David, expressed a belief in the afterlife upon the death of Solomon's older brother, claiming with certainty that he would see his deceased son again. However, belief in an afterlife, a continued existence in a shadowy realm like Sheol or Hades must not be confused with the belief in a resurrection from the dead of later Christian theology.


here they talk about a afterlife and how not to confuse it.

the sooner you realize afterlife was common knowledge, the sooner you will not embarrass yourself.


now if you can find a period in time where hebrews believed a sould dies when the body dies. IM ALL EARS
​

 

[fallingblood]

no you have not

you have not shown ANY verse that claims the soul dies with the body.

you have only that a physical body dies it stays

christians say close to the same thing.

So are you still refusing to supply any scripture to support your claim? It seems as if you are simply ignoring the vast majority of what I'm saying, and then repeating the same tired things over and over again. It seems like a lame attempt to debate, or even enter into a conversation.

What I have shown is that when someone dies, they are dead. Sure, they don't say anything specifically about the soul dying (you haven't shown that it continues on, or that they even had an idea of a soul during that time), but is there a need to? I don't think so. They also don't say that the soul goes on, and there is no suggestion in those verses that I supplied that there is anything after death. Instead, they say that death is the end. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the soul, according to them did go on. To try to argue such, especially when you refuse to quote and scripture, simply is ridiculous. It will not get you anywhere.

But we do have verses in the OT that states that the soul can die. Ezekiel 18:4 states that "the soul the sinneth, it shall die." So there is no reason to think that the soul must go on. More so, if we read Genesis 2:7, it states that man becomes a living soul. So when man dies, we can assume that since he is a living soul, that soul dies. There is no distinction there between man and the soul, body and the soul. Thus, it would be logical that the soul dies when the body dies.

No where here does it ever state that when a body dies so does the soul.

So? You haven't shown otherwise. And since you are the one who has constantly brought it up, and introduced it, you have the burden of proof. However, it has been shown that man is a living soul (as I explained above, that soul would thus die) or that the soul can die, if it sins. And really, all sin, and that is widely accepted in Jewish thought.

No where does it state a time period in which any hebrew ever though a soul does not exist when the physical body dies.

So you didn't read my last post? I explained the time period. Yes, I didn't put it down specifically, and I gave that reason. Ignoring comments really is not going to get you anywhere.

you have yet to back up your claim

You're the one who refuses to support your claims with any verses. You even refuse to address the verses that I presented. Really, you refuse to address the vast majority of what I said. So to say I have not backed up my claim is asinine.

 

[work in progress]

your own link proves you wrong again.

even here you have comprehension issues.

it speaks of afterlife within these scriptures.


This view has been disputed, as Solomon's father, David, expressed a belief in the afterlife upon the death of Solomon's older brother, claiming with certainty that he would see his deceased son again. However, belief in an afterlife, a continued existence in a shadowy realm like Sheol or Hades must not be confused with the belief in a resurrection from the dead of later Christian theology.


here they talk about a afterlife and how not to confuse it.

the sooner you realize afterlife was common knowledge, the sooner you will not embarrass yourself.


now if you can find a period in time where hebrews believed a sould dies when the body dies. IM ALL EARS
​

Which plainly points out that there was confusion and disagreement about terms like Sheol. Some believed Sheol was just a grave, while others talked of some sort of confused, degraded consciousness existing in Sheol. It might not be much more than an inability to come to terms with the finality of existence that some of these interpreters have. Plus, the simple fact that Judaism became more dependent on belief in an afterlife when Messianism became the core theme. There was little value to a messiah fixing the wrongs done to Israel, if those who died would not have the capacity to enjoy it. Still, the general theme was the dead remained dead and non-existent until they were resurrected after the world was restored.

 

[outhouse]

So are you still refusing to supply any scripture to support your claim? It seems as if you are simply ignoring the vast majority of what I'm saying, and then repeating the same tired things over and over again. It seems like a lame attempt to debate, or even enter into a conversation.

lets get this straight right now.

you made the mistake of trying to correct a remark not made to you personally and you were wrong to boot.


you have failed to provide any evidence that according to you "many hebrews dont have a concept of a afterlife"

you provided a link however that was full of afterlife so to speak


until you can prove who this "many" was YOU HAVE FAILED

 

[outhouse]

Which plainly points out that there was confusion and disagreement about terms like Sheol. Some believed Sheol was just a grave, while others talked of some sort of confused, degraded consciousness existing in Sheol. It might not be much more than an inability to come to terms with the finality of existence that some of these interpreters have. Plus, the simple fact that Judaism became more dependent on belief in an afterlife when Messianism became the core theme. There was little value to a messiah fixing the wrongs done to Israel, if those who died would not have the capacity to enjoy it. Still, the general theme was the dead remained dead and non-existent until they were resurrected after the world was restored.

Now most of this I do agree with.

the only thing I would bring up is that the Mesopotamian sources were there from the beginning.


I mean really, ancient hebrews consist of Canaanites, Mesopotamians [and that area] and Egyptians and nomad tribes all of which had mythiscal concepts of a afterlife. there is no reason to think that a complation of these religions would be any different Especially since in scripture they do elude to a belief in a soul and never Made OR refference the soul dies with the body .


there was not a confusion about Sheol, the word was just used in various ways

 

[fallingblood]

lets get this straight right now.

you made the mistake of trying to correct a remark not made to you personally and you were wrong to boot.

You have never shown me to be wrong. You just repeat, over and over again, that I'm wrong. That does not make me wrong.

And really, that was not a mistake. I say a comment of yours that I believe to be wrong. Thus, I corrected it. Not a mistake at all.

you have failed to provide any evidence that according to you "many hebrews dont have a concept of a afterlife"

How did I fail to provide such evidence? I gave you verses, from the Bible, that support what I stated. I also gave you an article, that details this as well. You have either dismissed or ignored the information.

you provided a link however that was full of afterlife so to speak

If you read the link, you will see that he was showing the evolution of the idea. I still doubt you actually read the article, and if you did so, you hardly read it carefully.

until you can prove who this "many" was YOU HAVE FAILED

Who? What you want specific names or something? I mean I did provide you with at least one specific group, the Sadducees that did not believe in an after life. That is a who.

Yes, I can't give you exact names. To think such is ridiculous. However, I have provided just as much answer to who as you have (actually I have given more, but that's fine). You haven't given anything specific, and to then claim that I need to is just silly.

And again, you refuse to actually address the issue. Why?

 

[outhouse]

And really, that was not a mistake. I say a comment of yours that I believe to be wrong. Thus, I corrected it. Not a mistake at all.

you have not corrected it

that is the problem.

NOT ONCE have you shown ancient hebrews did not believe in a form of a afterlife.

 

[outhouse]

How did I fail to provide such evidence? I gave you verses, from the Bible, that support what I stated.

You did not

you provided verses that claim once a body dies the physical body remains dead.

 

[outhouse]

Who? What you want specific names or something? I mean I did provide you with at least one specific group, the Sadducees that did not believe in an after life. That is a who.

Finally you made a real claim and supplied something I can research

 

[fallingblood]

Finally you made a real claim and supplied something I can research

This is just evidence that you don't read my posts carefully at all and in fact ignore most of what I say. Because in fact, I have mentioned this multiple times now.

I won't be responding to your other comments as it would be a waste of time since you refuse to address my points and instead just dismiss them.

 

[outhouse]

I mean I did provide you with at least one specific group, the Sadducees that did not believe in an after life. That is a who.

we are talking about one sect here. this does not constitute "many" as you put it. This was in fact a very small minority.

Who? What you want specific names or something?

No i wanted what you provided with the Sadducees. a group or time.

 

[outhouse]

Because in fact, I have mentioned this multiple times now.

and you did. It doesnt constitute "many" more like a minority sect.

im still waiting for many. the verses you supplied do not indicate a soul dies with a person.

 

[fallingblood]

we are talking about one sect here. this does not constitute "many" as you put it. This was in fact a very small minority.



No i wanted what you provided with the Sadducees. a group or time.

So you are just dismissing the information that doesn't agree with your point of view. I see no point to continue then.

 

[outhouse]

So you are just dismissing the information that doesn't agree with your point of view. I see no point to continue then.

No I agree that this group didnt have a afterlife.

it took you page after page to simply state

The Sadducees from the second century to about 70 AD had no view of a afterlife. I did see your comments earlier on this.

they do not represent "many" in fact its pretty obvious "most" Ancient hebrews for most of ther existance had a view of a form of afterlife.