The Myths of Christianity

[fallingblood]

not good enough for a source, without quoting a specific scipture.

What the Bible Says About Death, Afterlife, and the Future
When people die, that is the end. As I said, the Hebrew Bible is my source.

 

[work in progress]

well you are wrong again if you state many did not believe there was a afterlife.

First ill state when?, what time period, since early judaism was in a constant state of evolution.

next all ask who? lower class?, teachers?


every previous religion in the area had aone form or another of a afterlife. Since these people migrated to Israel. early hebrews were no different.

when you state someone is incorrect it would be great if you could start using sources

It seems you have a belief, and you are going to insist that it is correct regardless of any contrary evidence! It's already been covered, but let me ask you to explain one verse if your theory that every Bible writer firmly believed in souls or some sort of afterlife is correct: My favourite book -- Ecclesiastes, has this famous verse in ch.9, verse 5:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. KJV
​

 

[outhouse]

What the Bible Says About Death, Afterlife, and the Future
When people die, that is the end. As I said, the Hebrew Bible is my source.

LOL you want to bring Tabor in as a source :foryou: your making my work easy


LOL the whole article talks of a afterlife.

Throughout this period Israelites apparently thought that the dead could be consulted on behalf of the living.

And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god (elohim) coming up out of the earth." He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel

Two views dominate: the hope of an eschatological transformation of the cosmos and the notion that an immortal soul escapes the body at death to enter the heavenly world

and on and on and on

please post exact scripture that states ancient hebrews had no view of a afterlife, the article you posted basical states there is no afterlife like the christian view in which I have already stated

 

[outhouse]

It seems you have a belief, and you are going to insist that it is correct regardless of any contrary evidence! It's already been covered, but let me ask you to explain one verse if your theory that every Bible writer firmly believed in souls or some sort of afterlife is correct: My favourite book -- Ecclesiastes, has this famous verse in ch.9, verse 5:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. KJV
​

Yes the OT talks of a death and that this earthly life is over. It says nothing of souls NOT moving on.

even the christian view states this as well, not one scripture in any book talks about a afterlife of the physical body

 

[work in progress]

Yes the OT talks of a death and that this earthly life is over. It says nothing of souls NOT moving on.

even the christian view states this as well, not one scripture in any book talks about a afterlife of the physical body

If the writer believed in a soul, he wouldn't say "the dead know nothing."

 

[fallingblood]

LOL you want to bring Tabor in as a source :foryou: your making my work easy

So we begin with a usual tactic of yours, a dismissal based on really nothing.

LOL the whole article talks of a afterlife.

It seems you did not really understand the article, or your definition of an afterlife is extremely vague.

As for the few statements you took out of context, if you took them in context, you would see that the general idea, at least in the earliest time, was that when one died, they died. There may have been the idea that one descended into Sheol, but that hardly is an afterlife. It is nothingness, as explained in the article.

Yes, there were a few exceptions, such as Samuel. However, as the article states, that is an exception, not the rule.

As for your last comment, that occurs later on in the article, when the idea of an afterlife began forming. As it states right above that quote you took, that began during that Greco-Roman transformation. This was at a later time.

and on and on and on

Well yes, after the last quote you took out of context from that verse, he does go on and on about the afterlife. Why? Because he is talking about a time in which the idea of an afterlife had began forming. If you read carefully, and did not take the last quote of your out of context, you would see that he stated that was part of the Greco-Roman transformation. This occurred later on, and does not effect the beginning ideas of the Hebrews.

As my initial statement, the Hebrews did not always have a view of the afterlife.

please post exact scripture that states ancient hebrews had no view of a afterlife, the article you posted basical states there is no afterlife like the christian view in which I have already stated

The article I posted does not state what you are saying. In fact, it gives a number of verses that show that the Hebrews did not have a view of the afterlife. You can't simply dismiss this article because it doesn't agree with you. That simply is illogical, and really a poor debate tactic.

But here, since it seems as if you did not read the article thoroughly, I will take the various verses from that article:

Psalms 115:16-18 puts it succinctly: "The heavens are Yahweh's heavens, but the earth he has given to the sons of men. The dead do not praise Yahweh, nor do any that go down into silence. But we [the living] will bless Yahweh from this time forth and for evermore."

Genesis 2:7: "When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his thoughts [plans] perish."

But man dies, and is laid low;
man breathes his last, and where is he?
As waters fail from a lake,
and a river wastes away and dries up,
so man lies down and rises not again;
till the heavens are no more he will not awake,
or be aroused out of his sleep. (Job 14:10-12)

Genesis 25:7-8 records the death of the greatest of all, Abraham: "These are the days of the years of Abraham's life, a hundred and seventy-five years. Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people."

These are just a few of the verses used in the article (the ones he quotes fully, and not just lists), that support the idea that the Hebrews, at least at a time, did not think of an afterlife. When you died, you died.

 

[fallingblood]

Yes the OT talks of a death and that this earthly life is over. It says nothing of souls NOT moving on.

even the christian view states this as well, not one scripture in any book talks about a afterlife of the physical body

But it doesn't say the soul does move on. Thus, we can't say that they believed that the soul does move on. It is more logical to assume that since they didn't mention it, they didn't believe it. At least in this case when they clearly are talking about death, and what happens to one when they die. There is no talk of an afterlife. There is talk about them dying, and thus, being dead.

 

[Pegg]

please post exact scripture that states ancient hebrews had no view of a afterlife, the article you posted basical states there is no afterlife like the christian view in which I have already stated

the account about Saul is not a teaching from God. It is a historical account about something a man did for which he was punished by God. what we learn from it is that, yes there were spiritistic practices in Isreal. Yes, some isrealites believed there were dead people coming up to be consulted with. But what the account shows is what Gods view of that was. And God rejected such things because he had taught Isreal what happens to the dead and Saul should have known that the mosiac law forbade spirit mediums (hence why the woman was scared to practice because she knew the law and she feared getting the death penalty) and he should have known that all mankind return to dust when they die and their consicousness ceases.

Saul ignored all that and went ahead with it and God had him killed on the battlefield for it.

 

[outhouse]

It seems you did not really understand the article, or your definition of an afterlife is extremely vague.

anything that states there is something after death. talking souls, resurrection ect ect.

There may have been the idea that one descended into Sheol

that is a form of afterlife

I never stated the christian VIEW of a afterlife, in fact I stated it was not.

 

[outhouse]

the account about Saul is not a teaching from God. It is a historical account about something a man did for which he was punished by God. what we learn from it is that, yes there were spiritistic practices in Isreal. Yes, some isrealites believed there were dead people coming up to be consulted with. But what the account shows is what Gods view of that was. And God rejected such things because he had taught Isreal what happens to the dead and Saul should have known that the mosiac law forbade spirit mediums (hence why the woman was scared to practice because she knew the law and she feared getting the death penalty) and he should have known that all mankind return to dust when they die and their consicousness ceases.

Saul ignored all that and went ahead with it and God had him killed on the battlefield for it.

this is one story in one period, that only reflected a small portion of time.

Even with that the still believed a soul moved on.

I agree with most of your post

 

[outhouse]

But it doesn't say the soul does move on. Thus, we can't say that they believed that the soul does move on. It is more logical to assume that since they didn't mention it, they didn't believe it. At least in this case when they clearly are talking about death, and what happens to one when they die. There is no talk of an afterlife. There is talk about them dying, and thus, being dead.

they did mention it

and many times. In many different context.


it is very very clear the death was not the end. They did believe in a soul.


teh fact they believed in a sould means they believed somthing existed after death

that is called a afterlife and no differnt then christians thinking your soul goes to one of two places. just because hebrews didnt believe it went to a place, they made it very clear they believed in a soul.

 

[fallingblood]

they did mention it

and many times. In many different context.


it is very very clear the death was not the end. They did believe in a soul.


teh fact they believed in a sould means they believed somthing existed after death

that is called a afterlife and no differnt then christians thinking your soul goes to one of two places. just because hebrews didnt believe it went to a place, they made it very clear they believed in a soul.

First, support your claim with specific verses. You demanded it of me, and thus you should apply that same standard to yourself.

Second, these verses must show that this belief existed throughout the entirety of their belief system, as that is what you are claiming. So one verse simply is not going to do it.

Third, you must show that these verses mean that the soul is for eternity. It has to show that the soul does not perish, and is forever.

And finally, you should show that they did not believe that death was the end. I have provided scripture that said they did believe that death was the end. You probably should show why I am wrong, probably with other verses.

As a side note, believing in a soul does not mean one believes in an afterlife. The two are not necessary interchangeable.

 

[fallingblood]

anything that states there is something after death. talking souls, resurrection ect ect.

Yet, that is not what we see here. We see them dying, and being dead, except in rare exceptions. We don't see talking souls, resurrections, or the like in most cases, at least not in the earlier form of the religion. The article I provided points that out.

that is a form of afterlife

I never stated the christian VIEW of a afterlife, in fact I stated it was not.

Not really. It was not a form of the afterlife. It was death. They don't talk about the soul or anything descending to Sheol in any of the verses I presented. Even in the article, that wasn't what was happening. Instead, we see them, the person (presumably the body) descending into Sheol (and even then, we don't see this to be the case in most of the verses I posted anyway. In fact, that wasn't the case in any of them, which you haven't addressed). There is no suggestion that the soul was descending, or one remained alive, in anyway, even though they descended into such. And really, Sheol could mean nothing more than the grave, thus reinforcing the idea that there is no afterlife.

 

[outhouse]

First, support your claim with specific verses. You demanded it of me, and thus you should apply that same standard to yourself

I already have, while you have not Dustin.

 

[outhouse]

Third, you must show that these verses mean that the soul is for eternity.

afterlife doesnt mean for ever or eternity. It simple means once dead, a soul exist in some state.

enjoy playing the creationist game of moving goal post ???

 

[outhouse]

I have provided scripture that said they did believe that death was the end

you did not, you put up a link that provided information that a soul lived on after death even if a short period and even if yahwey or el induced said time period. this is still a afterlife.

 

[outhouse]

As a side note, believing in a soul does not mean one believes in an afterlife. The two are not necessary interchangeable.

and here is when, why, and where your incorrect.

even the christian version of a afterlife is nothing more then having your soul live on.


To believe a soul lives on after physical death is in fact afterlife.

 

[outhouse]

There is no suggestion that the soul was descending, or one remained alive, in anyway, even though they descended into such. And really, Sheol could mean nothing more than the grave, thus reinforcing the idea that there is no afterlife.

the article you post contradicts this statement as noted above. Your slipping Dustin.

By the way, I wish you luck on your new webpage. Ive been following you on facebook

 

[fallingblood]

I already have, while you have not Dustin.

Actually I have. Look a few posts back. It is on the last page. Can you direct me to your verses?

 

[fallingblood]

afterlife doesnt mean for ever or eternity. It simple means once dead, a soul exist in some state.

enjoy playing the creationist game of moving goal post ???

Okay, show that they exist after death at all. No moving goal posts. However, you are using avoidance tactics.