The Myths of Christianity

[arcanum]

In Hebrew the original word for Soul is ne′phesh and in Greek it is psy‧khe′
Throughout the Old and New testament it describes the living person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.

H. M. Orlinsky of Hebrew Union College, made this comment about the word soul: "The Bible does not say we have a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being." The New York Times, October 12, 1962.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467 says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life and its various vital manifestations: breathing, blood, desire. The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject”

So the soul is the living breathing person. As Issac Newton put it, "you dont have a soul, you are a soul"

It seems that the JW like to quote the old testament quite bit to prove a theological point. I think the OT reflects writings by people who were a product of their times and reflects their understanding of god at that time. If you look at it objectively the jews did borrow many theological concepts from their pagan neighbors. The torah never mentions an afterlife, before the Babylonian captivity they believed when you died that was it. Only later on did they embrace ideas like the resurrection, heaven and hell etc. So yeah if you want to quote the OT to prove your point about the soul being the same as the physical body I'd say that was their understanding of that concept at the time and it evolved to more sophistication later on.

 

[e.r.m.]

1nd Thess 1v9 They will be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION .........

FOREVER DESTRUCTION awaits the wicked according to Psalm 92v7

Jesus was caught up in the cloud [Acts 1v9] when the resurrected Jesus ascended to heaven. So those that are left will be caught up [resurrected] as Jesus was.
Physical 'Flesh and blood' [1st Cor. 15v50] can Not inherit the kingdom......

What about Matthew 13:49-50 and 1 Samuel 28:8-19?

 

[e.r.m.]

It seems that the JW like to quote the old testament quite bit to prove a theological point. I think the OT reflects writings by people who were a product of their times and reflects their understanding of god at that time. If you look at it objectively the jews did borrow many theological concepts from their pagan neighbors. The torah never mentions an afterlife, before the Babylonian captivity they believed when you died that was it. Only later on did they embrace ideas like the resurrection, heaven and hell etc. So yeah if you want to quote the OT to prove your point about the soul being the same as the physical body I'd say that was their understanding of that concept at the time and it evolved to more sophistication later on.

The following occurred prior to the Babylonian captivity
1 Samuel 28: 8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”
13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” 16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
They had a concept of the soul since at least Saul's time.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What about Matthew 13:49-50 and 1 Samuel 28:8-19?

First of all, at Matthew [13 vs34,35] it says Jesus addresses the crowds in illustrations [parables]. That means verses 36-50 is Not literal but a parable.

'Fire' in Scripture is not always literal such as the lake of fire is not literal but stands for 'second death' according to Rev. 20vs13,14.

Satan ends up in second death -[Rev 21v8]
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
So, second death is a fitting symbol for destruction.
Forever destruction for the wicked as Psalm 92v7 says.

The demons were involved with 1st Sam 28vs 7-19
Saul had taken up a forbidden pagan practice.
-see: Deut. 18 vs10,11; Lev. 20 vs6,27; Isaiah 8vs19,20;
Samuel would Not have taken part is such a forbidden pagan practice.
Please note: 1 Sam 28v14 [KJV] that Saul only 'perceived' it was Samuel.
Saul just recognized the 'person' as Samuel.

 

[arcanum]

First of all, at Matthew [13 vs34,35] it says Jesus addresses the crowds in illustrations [parables]. That means verses 36-50 is Not literal but a parable.

'Fire' in Scripture is not always literal such as the lake of fire is not literal but stands for 'second death' according to Rev. 20vs13,14.

Satan ends up in second death -[Rev 21v8]
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2v14 B.
So, second death is a fitting symbol for destruction.
Forever destruction for the wicked as Psalm 92v7 says.

The demons were involved with 1st Sam 28vs 7-19
Saul had taken up a forbidden pagan practice.
-see: Deut. 18 vs10,11; Lev. 20 vs6,27; Isaiah 8vs19,20;
Samuel would Not have taken part is such a forbidden pagan practice.
Please note: 1 Sam 28v14 [KJV] that Saul only 'perceived' it was Samuel.
Saul just recognized the 'person' as Samuel.

Your statements regarding the passages on Samuel... what makes you so sure on that? It certainly is one of the most interesting and mysterious stories in the OT, but the statements you make about it are only your opinion.

 

[Muffled]

modern science is doing no such thing.

is this a blatantly false statement and I have yet to see you resort to tacticts like this

Perhaps you misundestood my statement, I am not saying that modern scientists have stopped believing in evoltion, only that the use of genetic engineering proves that life can be created. Of course we don't know enough yet to be completely in control of it but knowledge increases daily.

 

[Muffled]

Au contraire

(NIV) Luke 2:34-35
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, [35] so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

If a sword had ever stabbed Mary the mother of Jesus' physical body, history would have remembered.

No JW would ever come to someone's door and say
(NIV) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Because no one who believes that the soul is the body would have as part of their lingo
(NIV) Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The only people who state things in such a way are those who have no fear that their audience will conclude that the body and soul are distinct.

Would you tell someone

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

-without a disclaimer, like Jesus did?

I agreee. There is plenty of biblical evidence for an afterlife. Howewver like evolution it is very difficult to prove. I can see a problem with JW's discounting scriptures that don't support their beliefs. I know because I studied with them and they were very unhappy because I studied my Bible and found verses that contradicted what they said. They wanted me to strictly adhere to a study guide that avoided those verses like the plague.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Your statements regarding the passages on Samuel... what makes you so sure on that? It certainly is one of the most interesting and mysterious stories in the OT, but the statements you make about it are only your opinion.

The Scriptures I posted are not opinion, but written Scripture.
What did you find in error with the Scriptures I mentioned?

 

[arcanum]

The Scriptures I posted are not opinion, but written Scripture.
What did you find in error with the Scriptures I mentioned?

Well your statement that Saul only percieved it was Samuel, how do you know it wasn't actually Samuel's spirit?

 

[Pegg]

It seems that the JW like to quote the old testament quite bit to prove a theological point. I think the OT reflects writings by people who were a product of their times and reflects their understanding of god at that time. If you look at it objectively the jews did borrow many theological concepts from their pagan neighbors. The torah never mentions an afterlife, before the Babylonian captivity they believed when you died that was it. Only later on did they embrace ideas like the resurrection, heaven and hell etc. So yeah if you want to quote the OT to prove your point about the soul being the same as the physical body I'd say that was their understanding of that concept at the time and it evolved to more sophistication later on.

I beleive that what was revealed by God in the Hebrew scriptures about death is the truth about death.

That is why we JW's dont believe in an afterlife....the scriptures are Gods word and Gods word is true above all others. Just because some jews ''evolved''their ideas later on does not mean those ideas are true. It just means they adopted ideas from pagan nations around them such as the greeks. You will not find those ideas anywhere in the hebrew scriptures because God is the author of the hebrew scriptures, not the jews.

 

[Pegg]

Well your statement that Saul only percieved it was Samuel, how do you know it wasn't actually Samuel's spirit?

because the scriptures are clear that upon death, human life ceases. All consciousness ceases. Ecclesiates states: ''all that you hand finds to do, do with your very power for there is no work, nor wisdom nor knowledge in sheol, the place to whcih you are going''

And when Adam was told he would die, God informed him of what his condition would become "from dust you were and to dust you shall return"'

We also take into account that God made a law which forbade the practice of 'spirit mediums' No one was to ever consult a spirit medium and those who did were to be put to death. So God did not view it as an acceptable thing....why not? Because those spirits are not dead humans, they are the demons.

 

[e.r.m.]

I agreee. There is plenty of biblical evidence for an afterlife. Howewver like evolution it is very difficult to prove. I can see a problem with JW's discounting scriptures that don't support their beliefs. I know because I studied with them and they were very unhappy because I studied my Bible and found verses that contradicted what they said. They wanted me to strictly adhere to a study guide that avoided those verses like the plague.

Thank you.

 

[arcanum]

because the scriptures are clear that upon death, human life ceases. All consciousness ceases. Ecclesiates states: ''all that you hand finds to do, do with your very power for there is no work, nor wisdom nor knowledge in sheol, the place to whcih you are going''

And when Adam was told he would die, God informed him of what his condition would become "from dust you were and to dust you shall return"'

We also take into account that God made a law which forbade the practice of 'spirit mediums' No one was to ever consult a spirit medium and those who did were to be put to death. So God did not view it as an acceptable thing....why not? Because those spirits are not dead humans, they are the demons.

Pegg you often quote the old testament to support your claims but you have to realize most jews at that time didn't have a very clearly developed conception of the afterlife. The torah makes no mention of an afterlife, these idea's crept in later.

 

[arcanum]

I beleive that what was revealed by God in the Hebrew scriptures about death is the truth about death.

That is why we JW's dont believe in an afterlife....the scriptures are Gods word and Gods word is true above all others. Just because some jews ''evolved''their ideas later on does not mean those ideas are true. It just means they adopted ideas from pagan nations around them such as the greeks. You will not find those ideas anywhere in the hebrew scriptures because God is the author of the hebrew scriptures, not the jews.

Really? So the Jw's don't belief in an afterlife? So you believe that this life is all there is like the ancient Jews? Interesting....I thought you guys at least believed 140,000 would make the cut. What is it exactly the Jw believe on this matter?

 

[outhouse]

Pegg you often quote the old testament to support your claims but you have to realize most jews at that time didn't have a very clearly developed conception of the afterlife. The torah makes no mention of an afterlife, these idea's crept in later.

Yes they did.

Every culture and every religion at that time understood a mythical afterlife. ancient hebrews were no different.

 

[work in progress]

Really? So the Jw's don't belief in an afterlife? So you believe that this life is all there is like the ancient Jews? Interesting....I thought you guys at least believed 140,000 would make the cut. What is it exactly the Jw believe on this matter?

That's the 144,000, as mentioned in that verse in Thessalonians about being caught up in the clouds. I haven't been involved with that religion for over 35 years, and that religion is notorious for changing doctrines and revising their own history, but I would assume that they are still teaching that this elect group are the only ones who make the leap. I don't want to open up another issue, but there are biblical scholars who challenge the modern interpretation that that verse means taken up to heaven as taught in all of the modern rapture theology.

Pegg you often quote the old testament to support your claims but you have to realize most jews at that time didn't have a very clearly developed conception of the afterlife. The torah makes no mention of an afterlife, these idea's crept in later.

It seems that the concepts of an immortal soul and an underground afterworld, started creeping into Judaism after the occupation of the Ptolomies. That's when Greek concepts started filtering their way into Jewish thinking. The Old Testament books that were written before the Greek Occupation, and not tampered with by later writers (as in Daniel and Isaiah) seem to be unanimous that there is a life spirit from God, which we exhale some of which each breathe. And when we are dying and have taken our last breath, that's it...we're dead...and that life spirit has gone up and back to God.

It's fascinating to read some of the Psalms and books like my favourite -- Ecclesiastes, and find very humanistic advice with no promises of rewards up above or punishments down below. Yahweh's wrath comes after you in this life, if you break the Law and the Covenants. In later books, there are notions of the dead being still alive in some capacity while they are in Sheol...similar to the Greek concept of Hades.

The idea of a Messianic Age -- when a future anointed king of the line of David, would liberate Israel and usher in a new age when there would be no war, and plenty of food, was combined with the belief in a future resurrection of the dead...which likely drifted in from Zoroastrianism. The Resurrection teaching is at the core of most New Testament promises of an afterlife...not souls flying up to heaven! So, for the record, the Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot more scriptural support than orthodox Christian theology, for their belief in no immaterial soul and the bodies of the just being resurrected from the graves after the Tribulation.

 

[outhouse]

It seems that the concepts of an immortal soul and an underground afterworld, started creeping into Judaism after the occupation of the Ptolomies.

False

Israelites started out polytheistic from 1200 BC tp 600 BC ,,,, during this period they were heavily influenced from Canaanite religions as well as Mesopotamian religions and Egyptian religions. ALL of which had mythical afterlives.


while it was not as much a part of their religion as christianity, they had it ingrained since their beginnings.

 

[work in progress]

False

Israelites started out polytheistic from 1200 BC tp 600 BC ,,,, during this period they were heavily influenced from Canaanite religions as well as Mesopotamian religions and Egyptian religions. ALL of which had mythical afterlives.


while it was not as much a part of their religion as christianity, they had it ingrained since their beginnings.

So, why isn't it in the early writings of the Torah or Old Testament?

I am aware that most serious religion scholars agree that most polytheistic references were scrubbed...Asheroth, the consort of Yahweh comes to mind, especially since her name is inscribed on some early temples along with Yahweh; and that problem of Elohim being referenced in plural form, and used instead of Yahweh in reference to God is another problem. Some writings remained blatantly henotheistic: "thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me" doesn't make sense unless Yahweh worshippers assumed that the gods of other tribes also existed. But, you still do not have any references to a conscious afterlife in the early books of the Bible.

 

[outhouse]

Asheroth,

Asherah.

I am aware that most serious religion scholars agree that most polytheistic references were scrubbed...Asheroth, the consort of Yahweh comes to mind, especially since her name is inscribed on some early temples along with Yahweh; and that problem of Elohim being referenced in plural form, and used instead of Yahweh in reference to God is another problem. Some writings remained blatantly henotheistic: "thou shalt have NO OTHER gods before me" doesn't make sense unless Yahweh worshippers assumed that the gods of other tribes also existed. But, you still do not have any references to a conscious afterlife in the early books of the Bible.

Yes they were polytheistic not henotheistic and Elohim is really just El and Elohim was not always used as plural anyway.

They may have gone through a period of henotheism but is was very very short lived. Instead what we see is the sect of yahwehism taking over as they switched to monotheism and the polytheistic tendancies are still in script today that some held on to.

So, why isn't it in the early writings of the Torah or Old Testament?

wiki "afterlife" and they give a pretty good desciption

The fact they held on to heavy influences from Canaan and Mesopotamia which both had mythical afterlives makes it almost impossible for them not to follow.

Im not sure how much was scrubbed out as you put it, what were left with is juts the monotheistic version. They never we in as deep as christians. but if you look you can find it all over the script.

 

[Pegg]

Really? So the Jw's don't belief in an afterlife? So you believe that this life is all there is like the ancient Jews? Interesting....I thought you guys at least believed 140,000 would make the cut. What is it exactly the Jw believe on this matter?

we believe that God has chosen a small number to join Christ as rulers in the heavenly kingdom.
Rev. 7:4: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand
Rev 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand

Rev 5: 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.


not all christians will go to heaven... the majority of mankind will continue to reside on earth as God intended. Jesus called these ones his 'other sheep'
John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd

for those who will live on earth, if they die, they return to dust and their existence ceases until God resurrects them to life. That will happen in the future during the time of the 'resurrection'....all of mankind who have died (yes everyone, good and bad) will be resurrected to be given a 2nd chance at life under Gods rule.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment
Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine—they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth]