The NATO

[Heyo]

Quite the opposite. The NATO can try at least to stop the war to favor negotiations between the belligerent parties.
But they will never do that, because as the senator said, their goal and purpose is to use Ukraine as proxy war battlefield and to use Ukrainians to wage a war against Putin.

I'm usually the first to suspect the US and the weapons manufacturers as the driving force behind most wars. There's precedent enough to justify that position.
But this one goes on Putin's ledger and nobody else's. He started the war. He wasn't coerced or provoked.

 

[Estro Felino]

He wasn't coerced or provoked.

Doch!
He was provoked. Those non-European élites colonized Ukraine and funded the nationalist Government of Kiev in 2014 who started harassing the Russian speaking populations, through mercenaries and non conventional battalions. So the conflict between Donbas separatists and Kiev started like that. And these separatists asked for Putin's help. From 2015 to 2021.
It is all documented. All the evidence will be brought to the ICJ of The Hague someday and I really want to see how the perpetrators will justify themselves.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Doch!
He was provoked. Those non-European élites colonized Ukraine and funded the nationalist Government of Kiev in 2014 who started harassing the Russian speaking populations, through mercenaries and non conventional battalions. So the conflict between Donbas separatists and Kiev started like that. And these separatists asked for Putin's help. From 2015 to 2021.
It is all documented. All the evidence will be brought to the ICJ of The Hague someday and I really want to see how the perpetrators will justify themselves.

So you have already made the verdict. Jury, lawyer and judge in your own court.

 

[Estro Felino]

So you have already made the verdict. Jury, lawyer and judge in your own court.

Is this EU exclusively led by élites who are untouchables?
Or is there some sort of democracy?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is this EU exclusively led by élites who are untouchables?
Or is there some sort of democracy?

We are so far a part of how we understand the world that we practice live in totally different individual realities.

I have been doing CTs for some years. You don't even understand that you are doing a CT. That is okay. That is how the world works for you. But it still works differently for me.

The Eu is not really a full democracy. That is the first part we can't even agree on. And we can't agree on what a democracy is. Or what evidence is. And the list goes on.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Is this EU exclusively led by élites who are untouchables?
Or is there some sort of democracy?

There is some sort of democracy.
The main problem, is that we won't overthrow the corrupt financial system, without the majority wanting it.
..which they don't as far as I can see.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There is some sort of democracy.
The main problem, is that we won't overthrow the corrupt financial system, without the majority wanting it.
..which they don't as far as I can see.

It is not even just that. It is a part of it, but not all of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Doch!
He was provoked. Those non-European élites colonized Ukraine and funded the nationalist Government of Kiev in 2014 who started harassing the Russian speaking populations, through mercenaries and non conventional battalions. So the conflict between Donbas separatists and Kiev started like that. And these separatists asked for Putin's help. From 2015 to 2021.
It is all documented. All the evidence will be brought to the ICJ of The Hague someday and I really want to see how the perpetrators will justify themselves.

Interestingly, the Ukranians seem to disagree.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Interestingly, the Ukranians seem to disagree.

But they are really Russians. Didn't you know that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

He wasn't coerced or provoked.

He is, by NATO's expansion in all former USSR states in Europe. Ukraine is among the last. That is what has started the war.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

He is, by NATO's expansion in all former USSR states in Europe. Ukraine is among the last. That is what has started the war.

But they are not any more. That is buying into Imperialism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All countries have their security concerns. Why was USA disturbed when USSR tried to place nukes in Cuba?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

All countries have their security concerns. Why was USA disturbed when USSR tried to place nukes in Cuba?

Yeah. But even that is too simple.

 

[Estro Felino]

He is, by NATO's expansion in all former USSR states in Europe. Ukraine is among the last. That is what has started the war.

Back when USSR was dismantled, it was replaced by the Commonwealth of Independent States, a sort of Union, like the EU, where Russia and its allies used to maintain good relations with each other.
The NATO and the EU (almost the same thing) started to phagocytize countries of this CIS.
Russia is right.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Back when USSR was dismantled, it was replaced by the Commonwealth of Independent States, a sort of Union, like the EU, where Russia and its allies used to maintain good relations with each other.
The NATO and the EU (almost the same thing) started to phagocytize countries of this CIS.
Russia is right.

Yeah, all of its over 100 nationalites should be free. Start there.

 

[Heyo]

Doch!
He was provoked. Those non-European élites colonized Ukraine and funded the nationalist Government of Kiev in 2014 who started harassing the Russian speaking populations, through mercenaries and non conventional battalions. So the conflict between Donbas separatists and Kiev started like that. And these separatists asked for Putin's help. From 2015 to 2021.
It is all documented. All the evidence will be brought to the ICJ of The Hague someday and I really want to see how the perpetrators will justify themselves.

War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means? Putin wasn't forced to attack Ukraine, he could have negotiated - exactly what you demand the west should be doing.
Your argument may explain why Putin attacked, but it doesn't justify it.

 

[Estro Felino]

War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means? Putin wasn't forced to attack Ukraine, he could have negotiated - exactly what you demand the west should be doing.
Your argument may explain why Putin attacked, but it doesn't justify it.

I perfectly agree with you. 100%
I haven't understood why he didn't ask Europeans for diplomatic help. As you know, he came to Rome in 2019, and our PM wanted to help the situation about the sanctions. So he went to Washington DC to plead for the cause, but Trump said: sanctions will stay.
He even danced at the Austrian Minister Kneissl's wedding.
I will never excuse war, I will never condone war.

 

[LuisDantas]

He is, by NATO's expansion in all former USSR states in Europe. Ukraine is among the last. That is what has started the war.

That claim has been made. I don't see how it could hold any water, though.

 

[LuisDantas]

Back when USSR was dismantled, it was replaced by the Commonwealth of Independent States, a sort of Union, like the EU, where Russia and its allies used to maintain good relations with each other.
The NATO and the EU (almost the same thing) started to phagocytize countries of this CIS.
Russia is right.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. None whatsoever.

For starters, what do you mean by "to phagocytize"? I am pretty certain that those countries were not invaded by NATO or anything.

Also, I think that you are either misrepresenting or misremembering things. There are currently nine CIS members (thanks to Wikipedia for the list).


Country Signed Ratified Charter ratified Membership Status
Armenia 1991-12-21 1992-02-18 1994-03-16 official member
Azerbaijan 1991-12-21 1993-09-24 1993-12-14 official member
Belarus 1991-12-08 1991-12-10 1994-01-18 official member
Kazakhstan 1991-12-21 1991-12-23 1994-04-20 official member
Kyrgyzstan 1991-12-21 1992-03-06 1994-04-12 official member
Moldova 1991-12-21 1994-04-08 1994-06-27 official member
Russia 1991-12-08 1991-12-12 1993-07-20 official member
Tajikistan 1991-12-21 1993-06-26 1993-08-04 official member
Uzbekistan 1991-12-21 1992-04-01 1994-02-09 official member

The only former member is Georgia. Turkmenistan was never a full member, but that seems to make little difference in practice (it is considered a founding member and an associate state). Ukraine, too used to be a founding member without full membership until 2014.

Georgia applied for NATO membership in 2004 and left the CIS in 2008-2009. It is still not a NATO member, and it has been partially occupied by Russia since 2008. There are literally no countries that used to be members of the CIS and have already joined NATO, although odds are that Georgia and Ukraine will at some point.

There are also no CIS members of any kind (former or current, founding or associate) that are currently members of the EU either. There are several EU members who joined since 1999 that used to be part of the Soviet sphere of influence, yes. Feel free to explain why they are not within their rights.


How would that give Russia - which is currently a true imperialistic state if any ever existed - any justification in invading Krimea, and now Ukraine?

 

[Wandering Monk]

If Russia embraced democracy and submitted internationally supervised elections and decided to become a productive member of the European community, NATO would be unnecessary.