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The Only Rule is Don't Get Caught

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Let's get one thing straight, I don't like humans as a whole. I think we're vicious, hypocritical, Machiavellian little parasites as a collective species and so I have very little empathy for anybody but those rare individuals who occasionally prove me wrong. I also don't believe morality is anything more than a social and biological construct intended to help our species thrive.
Yet I still don't agree with the idea that "The only rule is don't get caught" because it seems to promote more risk taking than is necessary. If I was to go out and kill people again and again eventually I'm going to get caught. When that happens I have to answer to a whole host of vicious, hypocritical, Machiavellian parasites which is not something I'm keen on the idea of.
I personally prefer a "return the favour" policy and treat people as they treat me for better or for worse. At least that way you occasionally bump into some truly lovely people and you're not setting yourself up as a target for the not so lovely people.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Let's get one thing straight, I don't like humans as a whole. I think we're vicious, hypocritical, Machiavellian little parasites as a collective species and so I have very little empathy for anybody but those rare individuals who occasionally prove me wrong. I also don't believe morality is anything more than a social and biological construct intended to help our species thrive.
Yet I still don't agree with the idea that "The only rule is don't get caught" because it seems to promote more risk taking than is necessary. If I was to go out and kill people again and again eventually I'm going to get caught. When that happens I have to answer to a whole host of vicious, hypocritical, Machiavellian parasites which is not something I'm keen on the idea of.
I personally prefer a "return the favour" policy and treat people as they treat me for better or for worse. At least that way you occasionally bump into some truly lovely people and you're not setting yourself up as a target for the not so lovely people.

But the rule is to not get caught, thus you will avoid whatever it is that will get you caught. If you feel like you'll get caught killing someone then don't kill someone, it has a fair chance that you will become immoral to yourself. Thus nothing to worry about, if you want to avoid getting caught, and know when to stop and all, then you have no worry.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But the rule is to not get caught, thus you will avoid whatever it is that will get you caught. If you feel like you'll get caught killing someone then don't kill someone, it has a fair chance that you will become immoral to yourself. Thus nothing to worry about, if you want to avoid getting caught, and know when to stop and all, then you have no worry.
Ah, well that's a different matter, then.

You may want to work on the wording a bit, though. To avoid getting caught saying things that make your mom angry.

I would suggest this rule: Avoid doing things that you might live to regret.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Trying to understand someone else's perspective isn't empathy. That may be where we are getting confused.

Empathy is more like someone's parents just died and you can relate to how awful that would feel and therefore you feel some hurt on behalf of that person which may will you to lend some support.

This is not empathy: my friend thinks its moral to hunt animals and I try to relate to that belief.

Empathy is not something you have to force. In fact, you can have empathy that leads to sadism rather than compassion.

I don't think any part of your topic actually involves empathy, especially since one does not 'empathise with a moral code'. You can empathise with the feelings a person has that leads to having that moral code but you can't empathise with the moral code itself, which is not an emotional thing.

I hope that makes sense.

People were calling it empathy, I just went with it.


What's your point?


That... it doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't make a magical wall around you to protect you from the criminals.

Why is creation and destruction more meaningful than anything else? Maybe the existence of the universe is not at all meaningful. Or maybe every aspect of the universe, including this world, is meaningful. How do you make that judgement?


I can perceive it as not because killing a fly has never been an issue for me or the rest of the universe. The universe as a whole is separated, it's not like dominoes.

Why does an action have to be meaningful to all things in order to have meaning?

Because objective meaning is the only meaning. Relative meaning isn't meaning for all, it's worthless to the grand scheme of all things.


This is all so relative. Meaning is relative. Even in relation to the universe. My action is meaningful in relation to the things my action affects. Some actions actually do have effect on outer space and are meaningful in relation to the parts of outer space they effect. Some people's actions are more meaningful than others. It's all relative. My action doesn't have to impact on the creation or destruction of the universe in order to have some meaning in the world it actually pertains to.

You don't understand what 'meaning is relative' means, it is relative to the species that it has some sort of meaning to. In some things it doesn't have meaning at all. To have objective meaning it has to effect the whole universe. Objective meaning is the only meaning because a small tribe's opinion is no match for the entire world's opinion. Why 0.00000000000000001% of the universe have a meaningful opinion if the rest of the universe has no interest?


What isn't wrong? You don't think your actions could have negative consequences? You said your aim is to not get caught. But you did get caught, most people do. And there are inevitable consequences. So your actions are negatively impacting on your own life. That has meaning relative to you and your family. It doesn't matter if you are ethically correct about the physical harm something might do to you. The reality is that there are other factors. And now you've gone and made things very hard on your mother. That is on you. You did that.

But why does that matter? She didn't call the police or anything so it didn't really harm me, I didn't get caught in the way I didn't want to, in other words. A big speech doesn't hurt me, being in jail does.

Who says love is all the same? Surely you love multiple things and people in your life in different ways? Why would loving everyone equally then eliminate the complex social relations? It would just mean that your parents and your siblings and your partner and your children and your neighbours would all be very important to you. But they would be important in different ways. No reason why that would not be the case.

No, they wouldn't be important to me because not everyone can be important and still be important. The same way not everyone can be completely unique and still be unique.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Ah, well that's a different matter, then.

You may want to work on the wording a bit, though. To avoid getting caught saying things that make your mom angry.

I would suggest this rule: Avoid doing things that you might live to regret.

That's not exactly it but close, since I usually don't regret things unless it is prison. I don't regret doing the thing, I just regret getting caught...
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
It wasn't an attempt at fear (I don't actually expect you Mom to do that). I was taking your theory to an extreme example to express the flaws in it. If the only rule is "Don't get caught", everything becomes fair game. Do you not see the problems with that?

No, you're putting me into a situation in which I'd hate, asking me to express my mentality at that moment to prove I'd feel like there should be some sort of rule against hurting me. Objectively, whatever happens to me doesn't matter in the world. Instinctually, my mind will say that whatever is going on is bad, but that's just because when a body is in extremist situations, it follows insanity.

This is your only personal rule? I find that very hard to believe.

Maybe look again a little more carefully and I'm sure you'll find more. ;)

Hmm... Nope.

Right--that it's relative is inherent in what I said. Each opinion is what it is regardless of any other. It has relation to every other, but if we're to use it as a basis of comparison, if the thing being compared to everything else changes, that relation also changes. That's what it is to be relative.

Relativity means each opinion is meaningful, and I deliberately stated post #37 as an opinion to demonstrate that. Regardless that you have a different opinion, my opinion is still meaningful.


Your opinion is subjectively meaningful, it's not objectively, thus not meaningful to everything and the universe, thus not meaningful to the point where it matters.

I'd like to hear more of this "drops to 0" bit, because, as I read it, in my worldview there is nothing that ever "drops to 0" for any reason.

Could you quote it please?
 

Cassiopia

Sugar and Spice
So I stole this phrase from Gjallarhorn and I think it is a good rule, I mean what a person doesn't know doesn't hurt them.

When my mom found out I was doing something that is highly considered illegal after finding it in my room, she asked me "Do you have any manners?" It just ticked into my mind to be a smarty hardy and say "My only rule is to not get caught."

...she flipped the hell out. I asked what was wrong with that rule and she didn't answer so I figured I'd ask you guys.

What is wrong with that being your only rule, IYO?

Both. I think I understand why my mom was mad, just wish we'd have debated morality right then and there.
Given the length of this thread so far I can quite understand why your mum didn't want to get into a debate about morality with you at the time. (After rightfully telling you off for breaking the law and showing her disrespect in her own house).

Seven plus pages of avoiding the real issue. Gotta love spotty teenagers! :sarcastic
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Given the length of this thread so far I can quite understand why your mum didn't want to get into a debate about morality with you at the time. (After rightfully telling you off for breaking the law and showing her disrespect in her own house).

Seven plus pages of avoiding the real issue. Gotta love spotty teenagers! :sarcastic

:D lol.

But I wasn't really avoiding a real issue, I can understand why she was angry, just think that she wouldn't be if she listened.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Because objective meaning is the only meaning. Relative meaning isn't meaning for all, it's worthless to the grand scheme of all things.


You don't understand what 'meaning is relative' means, it is relative to the species that it has some sort of meaning to. In some things it doesn't have meaning at all. To have objective meaning it has to effect the whole universe. Objective meaning is the only meaning because a small tribe's opinion is no match for the entire world's opinion. Why 0.00000000000000001% of the universe have a meaningful opinion if the rest of the universe has no interest?
That 0.00000000000000001% of the universe objectively exists, just like all the other 0.00000000000000001% bits of the universe. :shrug:
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
That 0.00000000000000001% of the universe objectively exists, just like all the other 0.00000000000000001% bits of the universe. :shrug:

But the opinion of that percentage is practically nonexistent, irrelevant, and unimportant.

"It is objectively true that Jack thinks X is wrong" does not imply "It is objectively true that X is wrong" And what Jack thinks, I don't give a spout about.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But the opinion of that percentage is practically nonexistent, irrelevant, and unimportant.

"It is objectively true that Jack thinks X is wrong" does not imply "It is objectively true that X is wrong" And what Jack thinks, I don't give a spout about.
But it does exist. So in terms of its existence, it stands on precisely the same grounding as every other 0.00000000000000001% bit. They are all equally important, all equally relevant, and not nonexistent at all.

"It is objectively true that Jack thinks X is wrong," would only imply "it is objectively true that X is wrong" if we weren't saying something different with the second sentence than with the first.

We actually are. Saying something different.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
But it does exist. So in terms of its existence, it stands on precisely the same grounding as every other 0.00000000000000001% bit. They are all equally important, all equally relevant, and not nonexistent at all.

"It is objectively true that Jack thinks X is wrong," would only imply "it is objectively true that X is wrong" if we weren't saying something different with the second sentence than with the first.

We actually are. Saying something different.

How does it imply that? It would lead to contradiction, being that Bob thinks X is right, thus it is objectively right to do it but objectively wrong to do it.

And how does one tiny atom's opinion even matter?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
How does it imply that? It would lead to contradiction, being that Bob thinks X is right, thus it is objectively right to do it but objectively wrong to do it.
My point was that we are saying something entirely different with "It is wrong to do X" than we are saying with "Jack thinks it is wrong to do X." The first is an objective statement, the second isn't, and they are the way they are because of what we're saying with each.

An implication relation might exist between them if we were saying the same thing with each--and that's entirely possible--but if we're not, then there is no implication relation between them.

The opinion that is 0.00000000000001% of the universe would (might) only be "practically nonexistent, irrelevant and unimportant" if it were required to be objective. But it's not. We're saying something different with it.

And how does one tiny atom's opinion even matter?
Because "universe" can mean nothing more or less than "the whole set of each of those tiny atoms."
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
My point was that we are saying something entirely different with "It is wrong to do X" than we are saying with "Jack thinks it is wrong to do X." The first is an objective statement, the second isn't, and they are the way they are because of what we're saying with each.

Ah, I see. Yes it is an objective statement but it's not objectively truthful.



The opinion that is 0.00000000000001% of the universe would (might) only be "practically nonexistent, irrelevant and unimportant" if it were required to be objective. But it's not. We're saying something different with it.

Doesn't matter as whatever that 0.00000000000001% does doesn't matter.


Because "universe" can mean nothing more or less than "the whole set of each of those tiny atoms."

As I've said before, a fly dead doesn't effect the world.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Ah, I see. Yes it is an objective statement but it's not objectively truthful.


Doesn't matter as whatever that 0.00000000000001% does doesn't matter.


As I've said before, a fly dead doesn't effect the world.
"Objective" and "subjective" are about describing reality. They are two ways of stating reality. They are not in themselves reality.

And "relative" is another way of stating it.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Look at it this way: Does that you think that "one person's opinion doesn't matter" actually matter? You think it doesn't, and I disagree. So if neither of us has an opinion that matters--indeed, if nobody in the universe has an opinion that can matter--then what's the point of them? Why do they exist? Why does anything get done about opinions?

You're making the world meaningless with your opinion--that's an effect. :)
 
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