The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

[Desert Snake]

How can you accuse me of "cherry picking" if we aren't even discussing any verses?? Thank you for the lesson on contextual reading. Are you prepared to read the gospels in context with me?

THERE IS NO MENTION OF YESHUA'S DIVINITY IN THE GOSPELS. This would be blasphemous it was taught in the gospels but it was not. This concept, like many others, were laminated onto Yeshua because of Paul. Yes, you still don't know the difference between Yeshua and Paul. You also are unaware that Yeshua completely rejected Paul and everything he taught. I can prove this to you if you are willing to look.

Many Jews of Yeshua's time DID embrace him. Though they rejected Paul's gentile movement. James (Yeshua's brother) was one of the most respected (Torah observant) Jews of the first century. Many first century Pharisees believed that the destruction of the Temple was linked to the murder of James. Let me know if you want to search any of this out.

I realize that mainstream Christianity and Judaism reject my views. They are both an inch deep and a mile wide. I promise you brother, Yeshua is not who the church has made him out to be…and he is certainly not what Judaism has made him out to be.

I applaud you in your rejection of Christianity. It takes a lot for any man to change his mind on faith issues that are taught from a young age. But I would also challenge you to look deeper into the pitfalls of mainstream Judaism. There are many concepts that have been adopted that completely go against the Torah.

Xianity isn't Judaism. The reasons why many 'teachings' are different is because the theology is different. Xiaity allows for Deity manifestations, hence Jeshua, but there are other differences. The 'physical' aspects of worship/law like circumcision are not 'required', not because we're talking about Gentiles, but because this is an opposing viewpoint to the Xian type of adherence; even 'baptism' ie Jeshua didn't baptize with water. (That's right folks, baptism is just symbolic).
Anyways, your parameters for what is 'required' by Jeshua are flawed because you haven't added or changed the theistic and theology according to the way Jeshua taught His disciples to understand it.
Further, there is an aspect where we don't want to 'add' to Jeshuas teachings, this is why even though we don't circumcise (aside from other religious reasons for not circumcising), we also don't hold the "same" (exact) Sabbath, and follow different dietary laws, but only to an extent. I feel you are lessening the teachings of Jeshua to a mere 'anti-Pharisee' doctrine, and that's not what Xianity is imo.

 

[Tarheeler]

Are you prepared to read the gospels in context with me?

I can prove this to you if you are willing to look.

Let me know if you want to search any of this out.

I promise you brother, Yeshua is not who the church has made him out to be…and he is certainly not what Judaism has made him out to be.

Spoken like a true missionary.

Several times in this thread you have stated that you have no need or desire to convert people to your understanding of the Christian Bible. But, so far, that is all you have been doing. You are free to strip away whatever you wish from your scriptures in order to justify your beliefs, but that has no affect on those of us who don't even acknowledge it in the first place.

Our conversation started with my statement that Paul wasn't the problem we have with Jesus, and that statement still stands. Your insistence that everything we disagree with in the Christian Bible is a product of Paul, even when it comes from a totally unrelated source, falls flat on its face. It's messianic eisegesis, and, while it does differ from Christian eisegesis, it is no less biased or contrary to Judaism.

Jesus is not our messiah, he is not our king, he is not the divine arbitrator of our Law. And, without those things, he was just a man who taught heretical ideas in ancient Israel.

 

[Simplelogic]

Xianity isn't Judaism. The reasons why many 'teachings' are different is because the theology is different. Xiaity allows for Deity manifestations, hence Jeshua, but there are other differences. The 'physical' aspects of worship/law like circumcision are not 'required', not because we're talking about Gentiles, but because this is an opposing viewpoint to the Xian type of adherence; even 'baptism' ie Jeshua didn't baptize with water. (That's right folks, baptism is just symbolic).
Anyways, your parameters for what is 'required' by Jeshua are flawed because you haven't added or changed the theistic and theology according to the way Jeshua taught His disciples to understand it.
Further, there is an aspect where we don't want to 'add' to Jeshuas teachings, this is why even though we don't circumcise (aside from other religious reasons for not circumcising), we also don't hold the "same" (exact) Sabbath, and follow different dietary laws, but only to an extent. I feel you are lessening the teachings of Jeshua to a mere 'anti-Pharisee' doctrine, and that's not what Xianity is imo.

Paul

 

[Simplelogic]

Spoken like a true missionary.

Several times in this thread you have stated that you have no need or desire to convert people to your understanding of the Christian Bible. But, so far, that is all you have been doing. You are free to strip away whatever you wish from your scriptures in order to justify your beliefs, but that has no affect on those of us who don't even acknowledge it in the first place.

Our conversation started with my statement that Paul wasn't the problem we have with Jesus, and that statement still stands. Your insistence that everything we disagree with in the Christian Bible is a product of Paul, even when it comes from a totally unrelated source, falls flat on its face. It's messianic eisegesis, and, while it does differ from Christian eisegesis, it is no less biased or contrary to Judaism.

Jesus is not our messiah, he is not our king, he is not the divine arbitrator of our Law. And, without those things, he was just a man who taught heretical ideas in ancient Israel.

Yet you can't name one

Spoken like a true missionary.

Several times in this thread you have stated that you have no need or desire to convert people to your understanding of the Christian Bible. But, so far, that is all you have been doing. You are free to strip away whatever you wish from your scriptures in order to justify your beliefs, but that has no affect on those of us who don't even acknowledge it in the first place.

Our conversation started with my statement that Paul wasn't the problem we have with Jesus, and that statement still stands. Your insistence that everything we disagree with in the Christian Bible is a product of Paul, even when it comes from a totally unrelated source, falls flat on its face. It's messianic eisegesis, and, while it does differ from Christian eisegesis, it is no less biased or contrary to Judaism.

Jesus is not our messiah, he is not our king, he is not the divine arbitrator of our Law. And, without those things, he was just a man who taught heretical ideas in ancient Israel.

Just because I am discussion who the real Yeshua was does not mean I am trying to convert you. I could care less if you believe in Yeshua. I am simply stating that Yeshua was a fully Torah observant Jew who was upstaged by an false apostle whom Yeshua foretold himself. You can do what you want with this information.

 

[Flankerl]

Just because I am discussion who the real Yeshua was

Which you can't because you are relying on the books selected by the Christian Church and written by Hellenistic gentiles who didn't even know the man.

 

[Simplelogic]

Which you can't because you are relying on the books selected by the Christian Church and written by Hellenistic gentiles who didn't even know the man.

There are later additions to the texts which I address. Your notion of the gospel writers being "hellenists" is completely illogical. Yeshua is recorded to have kept the entire Law of Moses in the 4 gospels. He is even recorded as someone who taught others to offer animal sacrifices and upheld the Torah in regards to stoning commandments!! No…not the work of hellenist writers. Try again.

 

[Simplelogic]

Israeli Professor: Our Problem is With Paul, Not Jesus

Professor Admiel Kosman after teaching as a professor at Bar Llan University in Israel is now professor of religion at Potsdam University, and heads the first Reform rabinnical college in Germany. (See link.) He has written some of modern Judaism's liturgy. He claims Paul, not Jesus, is the problem in Jews viewing Christianity favorably. That should give us pause then to examine whether Paul is essential to Jesus' misssion being accomplished, especially in light of the obstacle Paul places in the path of Jews to accept Jesus.


Friday, February 07, 2014 | Israel Today Staff

In a recent article for Israel's Ma'ariv daily newspaper, a renowned Israeli-born professor of Talmud, Admiel Kosman, explained that mainstream Judaism doesn't so much have a problem with Jesus as it does with the teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Exploring the early history of the Church, Kosman asserted that Paul intentionally worked to undo the Jewish character of the early community of believers to pave the way for Christianity to become its own religion.

"It is Paul who founded Christianity, and not Jesus," he wrote.

The professor pointed out that even in the pages of the New Testament, the rest of the early church leadership was opposed to Paul moving in a non-Jewish direction, and believed that anyone wanting to follow the Jewish Messiah needed to join the Jewish faith.

According to Kosman, Paul wasn't a true follower of Jesus, but rather used the platform provided by Jesus to advance his own teachings. That being the case, Kosman concluded that Jesus, himself a law-abiding Jew, would not have been pleased with Paul's activities.


Israeli Professor: Our Problem is With Paul, Not Jesus - Israel Today | Israel News

 

[Tarheeler]

Israeli Professor: Our Problem is With Paul, Not Jesus.....

Could you produce the original article?
I'd love to read his statement in the context it was written in.

 

[Simplelogic]

Israeli Professor: Our Problem is With Paul, Not Jesus - Israel Today | Israel News

This link should point you in the right direction.

 

[Simplelogic]

Influential Rabbi in Israel Sees Judaism Can Embrace 'The Nazarene' Without Paul



In a 2013 book by a Jewish Rabbi, Avraham Feld, entitled Jewish Secrets Hidden in the New Testament(Jerusalem, Eldad, 2013), he argues that the Nazarene (Jesus / Yahshua) can be embraced by Jews as one who led them

back to the Law, as long as Paul is not added into the mix as a teacher. Paul is lawless, confusing, ambiguous, and simply a man of 'like passions' as the rest of us.

 

[Simplelogic]

No…I am not the only one who has reached this conclusion.

 

[Tarheeler]

Israeli Professor: Our Problem is With Paul, Not Jesus - Israel Today | Israel News

This link should point you in the right direction.

No, it's the same thing you just posted.
I'm asking for the actual article that the professor wrote, not the Op Ed piece that someone else wrote about it.


And will you tell us next that Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri really did write Jesus's name on his deathbed?

 

[Tarheeler]

No…I am not the only one who has reached this conclusion.

You're right about that.
About 2.18 billion people agree with at least part of you're saying.

 

[Simplelogic]

No, it's the same thing you just posted.
I'm asking for the actual article that the professor wrote, not the Op Ed piece that someone else wrote about it.


And will you tell us next that Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri really did write Jesus's name on his deathbed?

There is another link (in the link above) which will show you the original article.

 

[Tarheeler]

There is another link (in the link above) which will show you the original article.

Really? We're having this conversation and you're going to direct me to a site for this organization?

"The Caspari Center for Biblical and Jewish Studies is an evangelical resource and education center for training, discipleship, and academic research and study, where Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians work together to strengthen and support the movement of Jewish believers in Jesus in the midst of the universal church"

Hell, you might as well just go ahead and point me to Jews for Jesus.

And there is no link to the original article.

As I told you earlier, the agenda is clear. We get a couple of people doing this every year, and it's nothing new.
But maybe you'll get somewhere with the Christians.

(I'm really missing the smiley right now).

 

[Simplelogic]

You're right about that.
About 2.18 billion people agree with at least part of you're saying.

[QUOTE="Tarheeler, post:


And will you tell us next that Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri really did write Jesus's name on his deathbed? [/QUOTE]

I am not sure what Rabbi Kaduri wrote. I have heard different theories. What is your opinion?

 

[Simplelogic]

Really? We're having this conversation and you're going to direct me to a site for this organization?

"The Caspari Center for Biblical and Jewish Studies is an evangelical resource and education center for training, discipleship, and academic research and study, where Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians work together to strengthen and support the movement of Jewish believers in Jesus in the midst of the universal church"

Hell, you might as well just go ahead and point me to Jews for Jesus.

And there is no link to the original article.

As I told you earlier, the agenda is clear. We get a couple of people doing this every year, and it's nothing new.
But maybe you'll get somewhere with the Christians.

(I'm really missing the smiley right now).

Are you really suggesting that there is no original article?? Who cares what website posts the original??? Its still the original.

 

[Tarheeler]

Are you really suggesting that there is no original article?? Who cares what website posts the original??? Its still the original.

Where on earth are you getting that conclusion from?

Look, I wish you well. I participated in this thread originally because I wanted to see what you were about.
While I suspected that this is exactly where it would end up, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt; we do have some who share beliefs similar to yours, but aren't interested in making others "see the light". But you've made it clear what your after.

Like I said, maybe you'll have better luck with the more mainstream Christians.

 

[Simplelogic]

Where on earth are you getting that conclusion from?

Look, I wish you well. I participated in this thread originally because I wanted to see what you were about.
While I suspected that this is exactly where it would end up, I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt; we do have some who share beliefs similar to yours, but aren't interested in making others "see the light". But you've made it clear what your after.

Like I said, maybe you'll have better luck with the more mainstream Christians.

Blessings.

 

[Simplelogic]

I am discussing the Torah and the historical Jesus. I could care less who "sees the light".