The Problem of Paul for All Faiths/Outlooks

[Rhiamom]

Exodus 12:48-49 And when a STRANGER shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and HE SHALL BE as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. ONE TORAH shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the STRANGER that sojourneth among you.

Right. Note the circumcision requirement? The keeping of Passover? That is a conversion, plain and simple. The stranger that sojourneth among you, Hebrew ger, is the same Hebrew word used for a convert, a ger. No non-circumcised Gentile grafting there.

 

[Rhiamom]

The Torah commands many things that the oral Torah completely contradicts. Israelites are COMMANDED to swear by the name of YHVH, but the Rabbi's say that I am forbidden from doing such. They even declare that the one who does "has not part on the world to come"!! What utter nonsense! Who gives men the right to change what the living God decrees for His people?

So it does. If it did not, Judaism would not have survived the destruction of the Second Temple. No religion can survive for thousands of years if it is completely static. And yet the barrier to change is quite high, the pressure to maintain tradition and Jewish identity is strong.

 

[Simplelogic]

Right. Note the circumcision requirement? The keeping of Passover? That is a conversion, plain and simple. The stranger that sojourneth among you, Hebrew ger, is the same Hebrew word used for a convert, a ger. No non-circumcised Gentile grafting there.

no argument here

 

[Simplelogic]

So it does. If it did not, Judaism would not have survived the destruction of the Second Temple. No religion can survive for thousands of years if it is completely static. And yet the barrier to change is quite high, the pressure to maintain tradition and Jewish identity is strong.

You can't prove this statement. As if following YHVH's commandments diligently would cause his people to be destroyed. Its actually the opposite. Israel has been destroyed because of turning away from pure Torah. The last 2000 years attest to this.

 

[Rhiamom]

You can't prove this statement. As if following YHVH's commandments diligently would cause his people to be destroyed. Its actually the opposite. Israel has been destroyed because of turning away from pure Torah. The last 2000 years attest to this.

You keep ignoring the fact that we practice Rabbinic Judaism, not Biblical Judaism, today because it is impossible to practice Biblical Judaism without a Temple, a ritually pure group of Kohanim, and the sacrifices made by those priests in that Temple. It could not be done in the wake of the Roman crackdown, and it cannot be done now. Rabbinic Judaism is how we, as a People and as a religion, survived. No matter how scrupulously you might follow the Torah you will never be able to do all that HaShem commands. Rabbinic Judaism has the Talmud to tell us how to best follow as many Torah commandments as possible, while understanding that all the Temple Laws can not be practiced.

Do you not understand that many of the silly rules devised by rabbis are adapting the Temple purity laws for the home? That shechita was originally just for ritual Temple slaughter, but now for our food? That ritual washing hands was required of the priests in the Temple, and now for all before eating? That our home is now our Temple, our dinner table our altar? The Rabbis knew what they were doing.

 

[Rhiamom]

no argument here

Then why did you provide that quote from Torah in response to my request for Torah evidence of grafting Gentiles?

 

[Simplelogic]

You keep ignoring the fact that we practice Rabbinic Judaism, not Biblical Judaism, today because it is impossible to practice Biblical Judaism without a Temple, a ritually pure group of Kohanim, and the sacrifices made by those priests in that Temple. It could not be done in the wake of the Roman crackdown, and it cannot be done now. Rabbinic Judaism is how we, as a People and as a religion, survived. No matter how scrupulously you might follow the Torah you will never be able to do all that HaShem commands. Rabbinic Judaism has the Talmud to tell us how to best follow as many Torah commandments as possible, while understanding that all the Temple Laws can not be practiced.

Do you not understand that many of the silly rules devised by rabbis are adapting the Temple purity laws for the home? That shechita was originally just for ritual Temple slaughter, but now for our food? That ritual washing hands was required of the priests in the Temple, and now for all before eating? That our home is now our Temple, our dinner table our altar? The Rabbis knew what they were doing.

Maybe we should spend a little more time mourning and repenting for the return of the Temple then trying to reinvent some way to make it applicable to our diaspora. Maybe our inability to truly keep the Temple commandments is part of the point that YHVH wants us to understand. Perhaps we are not meant to be comfortable in the nations we have been scattered to.

 

[Simplelogic]

Many things are impossible to keep outside of Israel. Even the Jewish calendar is impossible to discern unless His people are in the land. I do believe there are a number of commands that are not relevant in diaspora. Its our inability to properly keep His commands which should be the fuel that drives us to yearn and mourn for true restoration.

Most of the Jewish people today are comfortable in diaspora. Most aren't repentant and longing for the return. This is a travesty and part of the reason this dispersion has lasted so long imho.

 

[Simplelogic]

Then why did you provide that quote from Torah in response to my request for Torah evidence of grafting Gentiles?

Because we are talking about two different things. I was talking about grafting in the Torah. Not some concocted idea made up in the NT, which is what you assumed I was referring to.

 

[Rhiamom]

Because we are talking about two different things. I was talking about grafting in the Torah. Not some concocted idea made up in the NT, which is what you assumed I was referring to.

Grafting is not conversion. You were clearly arguing for grafting of Gentiles into the tribe, which is not the same thing as conversion. Just as you use your own definition of a Jew (to include yourself) instead of the commonly accepted definition, you are now trying to redefine the well known Christian term grafting to mean conversion. Grafting is not conversion; grafting is replacing what existed naturally with something else.

You are not privileged to redefine theological terms to mean what you would prefer them to mean. Using them in any way other than the generally accepted meaning is the same type of intellectual dishonesty as representing yourself as a Jew. I suggest a good university level course in comparative religions if your study to date has been so limited that you do not know how common words like Jew, grafting, and conversion are defined. And if you do know how they are defined, but deliberately use them to mean something else, then your entire theology is as broken and baseless as your claim to be Jewish.

 

[Simplelogic]

Grafting is not conversion. You were clearly arguing for grafting of Gentiles into the tribe, which is not the same thing as conversion. Just as you use your own definition of a Jew (to include yourself) instead of the commonly accepted definition, you are now trying to redefine the well known Christian term grafting to mean conversion. Grafting is not conversion; grafting is replacing what existed naturally with something else.

You are not privileged to redefine theological terms to mean what you would prefer them to mean. Using them in any way other than the generally accepted meaning is the same type of intellectual dishonesty as representing yourself as a Jew. I suggest a good university level course in comparative religions if your study to date has been so limited that you do not know how common words like Jew, grafting, and conversion are defined. And if you do know how they are defined, but deliberately use them to mean something else, then your entire theology is as broken and baseless as your claim to be Jewish.

You might want to check out Rashi's comments of "grafting in" in the Tanakh.

 

[Rhiamom]

You might want to check out Rashi's comments of "grafting in" in the Tanakh.

You might want to come up with a verse in Torah or even Tanach that talks about grafting Gentiles, as you insist there is one. But all you came up with is about conversion. No Gentile can ever be grafted into the tribe.

 

[Simplelogic]

You might want to come up with a verse in Torah or even Tanach that talks about grafting Gentiles, as you insist there is one. But all you came up with is about conversion. No Gentile can ever be grafted into the tribe.

you should go check to see what your rabbi's say before you accuse me of making up new concepts.

 

[Rhiamom]

you should go check to see what your rabbi's say before you accuse me of making up new concepts.

You should provide some evidence that your claim of Gentiles being grafted into the Jewish tribe is true, but you have not, and I have asked more than once. You have provided a Torah verse about conversion, claimed that Rashi spoke of grafting, and suggested I ask a rabbi about it. All evasions, to avoid admitting that Gentiles cannot be grafted into the tribe. You would have provided a verse if one existed.

 

[dantech]

You do realize though that even if what you say is correct(it isn't), it still doesn't equate into becoming Jewish, right? It would only mean that the 'grafted' was affiliated to a tribe.

Now look, if your mom was Jewish, it doesn't matter whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammed or the flying spaghetti monster, you're Jewish.
If your mom isn't Jewish, and you believe in something that is simply contrary to Jewish beliefs(in more ways than one), and haven't gone through a conversion, then you aren't Jewish.
If you have gone through a conversion, and believe in anything at all that is contrary to Jewish beliefs, then you are still Jewish. Although you're a Jew who will be judged according to Jewish law, and believing in Jesus goes against that law.

 

[Desert Snake]

no argument here

There is no reason for people to practice circumcision who aren't converting to Judaism. Again, you are cleverly using conversion as an example of Christian grafting.

 

[Simplelogic]

There is no reason for people to practice circumcision who aren't converting to Judaism. Again, you are cleverly using conversion as an example of Christian grafting.

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:3

Rabbi Eleazar further stated: “What is meant by the text: ‘And in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed [Genesis 12:1]?’ The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Abraham, ‘I have two goodly shoots to engraft on you: Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess.’ All the families of the earth, even the other families who live on the earth are blessed only for Israel's sake. All the nations of the earth, even the ships that go from Gaul to Spain are blessed only for Israel's sake.” (b.Yevamot 63a)

The word for “blessed” in Genesis 12:1 is v’nivrachu. Lancaster writes: “The Hebrew verb (v’nivrachu) translated as ‘will be blessed’ is related to a Mishnaic Hebrew term (mavrich) that means ‘to intermingle, to graft.’ Thus, one might translate the verse as ‘All peoples on earth will be grafted into you.’” [1] The context of the passage in Genesis dictates that it is impossible that this was the original intent of the verse but the sages like to dig into the texts and pull out new interpretations.

How can Ruth the Moabitess and Naamah the Ammonitess be added into Israel if the Torah states “No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the LORD” (Deuteronomy 23:3)? The sages reason that they are no longer considered a Moabitess or an Ammonitess because they were grafted into Abraham, i.e., cut off from their old root and grafted onto a new one.

 

[Simplelogic]

You do realize though that even if what you say is correct(it isn't), it still doesn't equate into becoming Jewish, right? It would only mean that the 'grafted' was affiliated to a tribe.

Now look, if your mom was Jewish, it doesn't matter whether you believe in Jesus, Mohammed or the flying spaghetti monster, you're Jewish.
If your mom isn't Jewish, and you believe in something that is simply contrary to Jewish beliefs(in more ways than one), and haven't gone through a conversion, then you aren't Jewish.
If you have gone through a conversion, and believe in anything at all that is contrary to Jewish beliefs, then you are still Jewish. Although you're a Jew who will be judged according to Jewish law, and believing in Jesus goes against that law.

Have you checked the Torah to see what its qualifications are for being Jewish?? Probably not, blind adherence to false Rabbinic enactments does not equate to truth. Only YHVH's Torah is truth, which you have replace.

Having a Jewish mother is NOT the litmus test for determining someones Jewishness and the Torah agrees with me.

 

[dantech]

Have you checked the Torah to see what its qualifications are for being Jewish?? Probably not, blind adherence to false Rabbinic enactments does not equate to truth. Only YHVH's Torah is truth, which you have replace.

Having a Jewish mother is NOT the litmus test for determining someones Jewishness and the Torah agrees with me.

I don't "check" the Torah. I read it 4 times a week for my synagogue, and study it 7 times a week for two hours or more. To call that blindly adhering to anything is foolish. I have shown you in a post earlier parts of the Tanakh (nothing that would include scripture that you seem to reject), that helps prove my stance, whereas is helps disprove yours. Seems to me like you're not only the one who is blindly adhering to something, but you're fooling yourself into believing your own version of Scripture so that it fits your needs, not the other way around.

Tell me, what would be my benefit in blindly not using the computer on Shabbat? What would be the benefit of me not putting butter on my steaks, something I've been craving my whole life? What would be the benefit/s for me to do any of the many things I do or don't do, if I didn't firmly believe, after extensive study, that this is the way to pleasing God? Trust me, I'm not blindly adhering to anything. You on the other hand are very easily dismissing many clear parts of Judaism, because they don't please you. And you are brushing it off as "blindly adhering to false Rabbinic enactments" to justify what has been proven to you time and time again as wrong.

 

[Simplelogic]

I don't "check" the Torah. I read it 4 times a week for my synagogue, and study it 7 times a week for two hours or more. To call that blindly adhering to anything is foolish. I have shown you in a post earlier parts of the Tanakh (nothing that would include scripture that you seem to reject), that helps prove my stance, whereas is helps disprove yours. Seems to me like you're not only the one who is blindly adhering to something, but you're fooling yourself into believing your own version of Scripture so that it fits your needs, not the other way around.

Tell me, what would be my benefit in blindly not using the computer on Shabbat? What would be the benefit of me not putting butter on my steaks, something I've been craving my whole life? What would be the benefit/s for me to do any of the many things I do or don't do, if I didn't firmly believe, after extensive study, that this is the way to pleasing God? Trust me, I'm not blindly adhering to anything. You on the other hand are very easily dismissing many clear parts of Judaism, because they don't please you. And you are brushing it off as "blindly adhering to false Rabbinic enactments" to justify what has been proven to you time and time again as wrong.

Please then, present your verses from Torah which proves your claim of needing a Jewish mother to prove ones Jewishness. I will be waiting.

I would also love to expose your false milk/meat complex which the Torah doesn't teach. Take the Rabbinic blinders off!! Abraham served the angels a double cheeseburger when they showed up!