The Problem with "Fighting" Homosexuality

[Monk Of Reason]

Theres no issue as far as I'm concerned with the people themselves who are Gay. But as a Christian i think the act is wrong and against my beliefs. The same as I think sex before marriage is wrong or abortion is wrong. Hate the sin but love the sinner. But just because I declare that I believe this doesn't mean I am being discriminating or abusive. Sometimes people jump to conclusions or use their situations to declare that they are being treated unfairly. But everyone will have a belief about something. Some believe hunting is OK. Some believe we shouldn't kill any animals even for food. Some say abortion is OK and others think the death penalty is good. It doesn't mean they are right and its just their opinion.

But just because someone stands up for what they believe doesn't mean they hate the person who has an opposing view. It just means they disagree with what has been proposed. Thats it nothing else , nothing personal. People can use this sometimes and turn things around so that it makes the person taking the stand as the bad guy. They are the ones who are taking the issue to a level of us and them not the ones just having their say.

It is discrimination if you take that stance against their fundamental human rights.

For example would you vote against marriage equality if it was on the poll in your state? Or would you take action to revoke marriage equality if you had the chance?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I disagree but only do so to acknowledge I read your post and have investigated this quite a bit. See you in another thread.

You know how you "investigate" whether sexual orientation is a choice? Ask yourself when you consciously chose to be heterosexual. Or ask a gay person when they "chose" to be attracted to members of the same sex.

The controversy you keep alluding to doesn't exist.

 

[1robin]

You know how you "investigate" whether sexual orientation is a choice? Ask yourself when you consciously chose to be heterosexual. Or ask a gay person when they "chose" to be attracted to members of the same sex.

The controversy you keep alluding to doesn't exist.

That is not how you would investigate that issue. If I had researchers doing that I would fire them as incompetent. Heterosexuality could be 100% determined (as I believe it to be) but that would in no way what so ever demonstrate a single homosexual is orientated that way by natural causes.

The controversy exists al over the place. Even to my surprise I found in general the same number of studies suggesting it was either natural but abnormal or a choice as the opposite. Who ever is right is not the point, virtually every article I read concluded that the data was still to primitive to determine the fact of the matter. However even that is irrelevant, acting on sexual desire is a choice. Just as I am not to act on heterosexual desires when they cannot be justified and I condemn promiscuity in any form the same would apply to homosexuals whether naturally orientated or not.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is not how you would investigate that issue. If I had researchers doing that I would fire them as incompetent. Heterosexuality could be 100% determined (as I believe it to be) but that would in no way what so ever demonstrate a single homosexual is orientated that way by natural causes.

The controversy exists al over the place. Even to my surprise I found in general the same number of studies suggesting it was either natural but abnormal or a choice as the opposite. Who ever is right is not the point, virtually every article I read concluded that the data was still to primitive to determine the fact of the matter. However even that is irrelevant, acting on sexual desire is a choice. Just as I am not to act on heterosexual desires when they cannot be justified and I condemn promiscuity in any form the same would apply to homosexuals whether naturally orientated or not.

I'm talking about the "choice" part of your assertions. You don't need any studies. You need to be a human being. You need to speak to human beings. Every human being on the planet knows whether or not sexual orientation is a choice. You know the answer to it yourself. You don't need to tap dance around and pretend like nobody really knows for sure whether attraction to another human being, whether of the same sex or a different sex, is any kind of conscious choice. It's like talking about eye color as if there's some sort of choice involved in determining one's eye color.

The part about acting on natural sexual desires is more about your personal opinion on the matter than anything else. You don't like promiscuity, we get it. You seem to think gay people are more promiscuous than everybody else. We get it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Just as I am not to act on heterosexual desires when they cannot be justified and I condemn promiscuity in any form the same would apply to homosexuals whether naturally orientated or not.

So you are equally fine with heterosexuality and homosexuality provided that they are not "unjustified"? What exactly do you mean by "unjustified" here?

 

[1robin]

So you are equally fine with heterosexuality and homosexuality provided that they are not "unjustified"? What exactly do you mean by "unjustified" here?

Sorry Spiny. I had already worn myself out in this thread and told everyone I couldn't take it amny longer. I just happen to know SkepticalThinker a little and gave them a little additional information. I have probably posted two dozen posts here explaining how sex can or cannot be justified in this context. If you back up in this thread a week or two and search my posts you will find I have explained this exhaustively and adapted it to every challenge given to it.

 

[McBell]

Theres no issue as far as I'm concerned with the people themselves who are Gay. But as a Christian i think the act is wrong and against my beliefs. The same as I think sex before marriage is wrong or abortion is wrong. Hate the sin but love the sinner. But just because I declare that I believe this doesn't mean I am being discriminating or abusive. Sometimes people jump to conclusions or use their situations to declare that they are being treated unfairly. But everyone will have a belief about something. Some believe hunting is OK. Some believe we shouldn't kill any animals even for food. Some say abortion is OK and others think the death penalty is good. It doesn't mean they are right and its just their opinion.

But just because someone stands up for what they believe doesn't mean they hate the person who has an opposing view. It just means they disagree with what has been proposed. Thats it nothing else , nothing personal. People can use this sometimes and turn things around so that it makes the person taking the stand as the bad guy. They are the ones who are taking the issue to a level of us and them not the ones just having their say.

Which is fine until those people try to make everyone follow their beliefs.

Proposition 8 and other same sex marriage bans are but one area of example.

 

[1robin]

I'm talking about the "choice" part of your assertions. You don't need any studies. You need to be a human being. You need to speak to human beings. Every human being on the planet knows whether or not sexual orientation is a choice. You know the answer to it yourself. You don't need to tap dance around and pretend like nobody really knows for sure whether attraction to another human being, whether of the same sex or a different sex, is any kind of conscious choice. It's like talking about eye color as if there's some sort of choice involved in determining one's eye color.

The part about acting on natural sexual desires is more about your personal opinion on the matter than anything else. You don't like promiscuity, we get it. You seem to think gay people are more promiscuous than everybody else. We get it.

Ok, last post for me here. I do know homosexuals. I know quite a few who changed sides, some more than once in their adult lives. However what they think is not the arbiter of what is the truth here. If this was a spiritual problem what they think would be exactly the same and it would be a choice, if it were natural but abnormal what they think would be the same, even if it was pure choice what they think "could" still be the same. Society and our own nature has convinced mankind to a certainty many things were true that turned out to not be. It takes science (in spite of claims to the contrary people of faith value science as highly as possible, but only where it applies) not a fuzzy opinion about what people feel and when they began to feel that way. The fact so many switch up so often and so many actually stop having attractions to their same sex leaves me with only science to resolve this muddled issue. Ok, I am out of this never ending story.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok, last post for me here. I do know homosexuals. I know quite a few who changed sides, some more than once in their adult lives. However what they think is not the arbiter of what is the truth here. If this was a spiritual problem what they think would be exactly the same and it would be a choice, if it were natural but abnormal what they think would be the same, even if it was pure choice what they think "could" still be the same. Society and our own nature has convinced mankind to a certainty many things were true that turned out to not be. It takes science (in spite of claims to the contrary people of faith value science as highly as possible, but only where it applies) not a fuzzy opinion about what people feel and when they began to feel that way. The fact so many switch up so often and so many actually stop having attractions to their same sex leaves me with only science to resolve this muddled issue. Ok, I am out of this never ending story.

I don't think you're talking about the "choice" of which gender/sex a person is attracted to. There is no choice there that I can see.
The "choice" I think you're talking about is whether or not to engage in a relationship or a sexual encounter with a person of the same or opposite sex. They are different things.

Maybe the people you know who "changed sides" are bisexual people. And how about the heterosexual people you know. Any side switchers? Hmmmm ..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know quite a few who changed sides, some more than once in their adult lives.

It's not called "switching sides," it's bisexuality. It also suggests that sexuality is more capable of fluctuation than what people want to admit.

(in spite of claims to the contrary people of faith value science as highly as possible, but only where it applies)

"pick 'n choose" science is just as perverted as "pick 'n choose" scripture.

 

[dgirl1986]

I just came back after being away for over a week.

Do I really want to read all the posts I missed? lol

 

[dgirl1986]

Ok, last post for me here. I do know homosexuals. I know quite a few who changed sides, some more than once in their adult lives. However what they think is not the arbiter of what is the truth here. If this was a spiritual problem what they think would be exactly the same and it would be a choice, if it were natural but abnormal what they think would be the same, even if it was pure choice what they think "could" still be the same. Society and our own nature has convinced mankind to a certainty many things were true that turned out to not be. It takes science (in spite of claims to the contrary people of faith value science as highly as possible, but only where it applies) not a fuzzy opinion about what people feel and when they began to feel that way. The fact so many switch up so often and so many actually stop having attractions to their same sex leaves me with only science to resolve this muddled issue. Ok, I am out of this never ending story.

People like to paint sexuality as though it is a strictly black and white thing but it isnt. Sexuality is quite complex which is why there are still studies being conducted to understand it better.

The problem people have is when they assume what is happening not only in the mind of the person but in the core of their being. You cannot know if they are "switching sides" or struggling to accept their sexuality.

It took a long time for me to accept mine.

 

[dgirl1986]

I am Catholic and I agree with you. It is sin like many others and no one is without sin. No one should be humiliated embarrassed, bashed etc. However, the behavior is also nothing to be proud of and I don't think it should be called marriage. What ever happened to the term civil union with equal rights as married couples. That I would support more than the term marriage for two same sex married partners.

I would suggest that civil union was a title and partial allowance of such committments between two people in a legal sense. It is not permitted everywhere and even then it does not legally put us on equal terms.

 

[SkepticThinker]

People like to paint sexuality as though it is a strictly black and white thing but it isnt. Sexuality is quite complex which is why there are still studies being conducted to understand it better.

The problem people have is when they assume what is happening not only in the mind of the person but in the core of their being. You cannot know if they are "switching sides" or struggling to accept their sexuality.

It took a long time for me to accept mine.

This ^^^

 

[mahmoud mrt]

There are always a heavy supply of threads on religious type forums regarding homosexuality especially when debating the fact that it is wrong or against wrong or whatever.


What I notice the most in these discussions and debates is when outspoken conservative christians come out with what they call the truth about homosexuality, they are quite hateful towards the sexuality. This could be understandable if it ended there but it doesnt. There seems to be this irrational fear or hate towards the person with the sexuality. Is this what it means to follow jesus?


In my opinon, if these people truly cared about us and saw us as equal human beings they would do the obligatory mention that it is a sin and we may burn or whatever but it would end there. They wouldnt then disown, humiliate, embarass, bash, harass etc said person.

Form the Islamic Perspective, Homosexuality has two categories

1- Who do it just for the fun of it, they have tried the normal male-female sexual intercourse and got bored with it.

2- Who have actually a mental or psychological defect that lead them to wish for sexual intercourse with a partner of their own sex.



For both categories the Islamic instruction is to keep it secret and try hard to repent from it and stop it. Because the punishment in the hereafter for this sin is hard, it’s a major sin.

While this (repenting and stopping this sin) is easy for category 1 who do this as a kind of entertainment, it’s harder for category 2, But anyway they have to repent also, they have to sacrifice in order to keep the community healthy, and they will be rewarded greatly in heaven for their sacrifice. They can also do a smaller sin in degree which is masturbating; it’s a sin but much smaller and less punished or even forgiven by God than homosexual intercourse.

Islam’s main concern is the healthiness of the community as a whole, the community must stay healthy, and if this means that homosexuality is forbidden to be public, and that homosexuals keep it secret and try their best to stop and repent, then this is a must.



Regards

Mahmoud

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Islam’s main concern is the healthiness of the community as a whole....

For some reason I just remembered a line from a film called The Outlaw Josey Wales:

"Don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining."

 

[dgirl1986]

Form the Islamic Perspective, Homosexuality has two categories

1- Who do it just for the fun of it, they have tried the normal male-female sexual intercourse and got bored with it.

2- Who have actually a mental or psychological defect that lead them to wish for sexual intercourse with a partner of their own sex.



For both categories the Islamic instruction is to keep it secret and try hard to repent from it and stop it. Because the punishment in the hereafter for this sin is hard, it’s a major sin.

While this (repenting and stopping this sin) is easy for category 1 who do this as a kind of entertainment, it’s harder for category 2, But anyway they have to repent also, they have to sacrifice in order to keep the community healthy, and they will be rewarded greatly in heaven for their sacrifice. They can also do a smaller sin in degree which is masturbating; it’s a sin but much smaller and less punished or even forgiven by God than homosexual intercourse.

Islam’s main concern is the healthiness of the community as a whole, the community must stay healthy, and if this means that homosexuality is forbidden to be public, and that homosexuals keep it secret and try their best to stop and repent, then this is a must.



Regards

Mahmoud

Sin only applies to those that follow the religion.

 

[goodhunter819]

This is not my genre of religious topic, I usually approach subjects on unconventional religious practice vs conventional religion, the only times I address homosexuality is when it affects me directly which so happens to be a recent problem in my personal world, since I gave up being promiscuous that is intimately dating woman of easy virtue I have been subject to all manner of insults, the reason is that now that I have relocated to where I am now they are not aware of how frequent I have been with various woman so they are constantly regarding me with a messed eye which obviously has an effect on my mental psyche. I think with homosexuality is that any person would be stupid to think they could eradicate it, not that I am homosexual because I am not, I am purely for the wet between the female however homosexuality being what it is will not be weaved out of human degrees of existence no matter how much any of us want to kept away, in my opinion this is because it is a human desire, I don’t believe there is such a thing as a gay gene as announced on yahoo news by ten to a dozen hired researchers, there is however as you will know the split in the chromosome causing gender mutation within womb, there are hermaphrodites societies that have their place in human existence, fighting homosexuality? In 1913 the government passed a bill to stop homosexuals being hanged, until then homosexuality was illegal in England, homosexuals found their rights into government and have tried and are still trying to find their way into religious practice, monotheist practice to be exact which I whole heartedly disagree with simply because the law for homosexuals within monotheist church or belief is total celibacy or mutual sexual reconditioning subject to marriage guidance, specialized help and counseling so the whole scope of fighting homosexuality is only as strong is the choice the individual makes, in other words you can only successfully stop homosexuals if whomever concerned with that orientation wants to be stopped, it is worth knowing that many people don’t even have a rational approach and think that stopping homosexuality even when it is not actually taking place some people will go out of their way to top people finding the opposite sex in order to exploit that need for money as evil as they are. (Reference: Corinthians Book 1 Under Marriage, Sex and Virginity )

Before and after the renascence period and after that era many people have made many attempts to stop or fight homosexually from electric shock treatment to pharmaceuticals designed to wipe out the desire always resulting in failure, I don’t think there is any real way of fighting homosexuality, it is one of the oldest miss practices and can only be stopped if they are willing to be stopped , on a personal note if they infringe my private space then I make something of it, otherwise to themselves to are and without my support.

 

[MikeSavage]

There are always a heavy supply of threads on religious type forums regarding homosexuality especially when debating the fact that it is wrong or against wrong or whatever.

What I notice the most in these discussions and debates is when outspoken conservative christians come out with what they call the truth about homosexuality, they are quite hateful towards the sexuality. This could be understandable if it ended there but it doesnt. There seems to be this irrational fear or hate towards the person with the sexuality. Is this what it means to follow jesus?

In my opinon, if these people truly cared about us and saw us as equal human beings they would do the obligatory mention that it is a sin and we may burn or whatever but it would end there. They wouldnt then disown, humiliate, embarass, bash, harass etc said person.

Owing to the fact that one does not "burn", as hell is not a place of torment, it is the common grave of mankind, then it's not a worry. And, since we do NOT have an immortal soul as the scriptures CLEARLY say, what could be sent there to be tormented? Regarding homosexuality, it's your choice to do the ENTIRE will of God, or not. If one chooses "not", then there is no salvation, or resurrection after the Kingdom takes over ruling Earth. Simply put, you should enjoy your life now, because that's it if you reject doing God's will. If one DOES the entire will of God, then we have ETERNAL life to look forward to on Earth, after Armageddon. Could be billions of years. No one really knows what God means by eternal. It doesn't mean immortal though, just eternal. I am sure you know that it's God's will to reject homosexual acts, or any sexually immoral act, such as sex outside the bonds of marriage, so no point in hashing that over again. Your choice to either live for now, and forget eternal life as promised, or to accept that free gift from the God of all creation.

 

[MikeSavage]

Sin only applies to those that follow the religion.

No, sin does not "apply only to those that follow religion". One is born with sin. One sins constantly. Religion is All false. The "one true faith" that Jesus taught is the only thing that isn't false, and no religion teaches that. They are all, as Galations 5:19-21 clearly indicates, works of the flesh. They will ALL be destroyed, as Revelation to John clearly indicates. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that sin only applies to those involved in false religion, as all religion is false. To think that one is smarter, or more intelligent than the One who created us, is, quite simply put, insane. The creation cannot be greater than the creator.