The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[metis]

It is witnessed Scripture,...

Every single set of religious scriptures that I have ever read (I used to teach comparative religions) claims their scriptures were witnessed one way or another.

...if you ignore that from Yisrael, then are you to ignore it all?

Why all or nothing?

There is much that can be discussed as regards Yahshuah and his divinity.

That is a divinity that you assume.

But a simple verse like Heb 1.8 has to be answered. If you ignore it, then we can ignore yours. How then do we discuss?

I don't care if you ignore ours, nor do I particularity feel compulsed to discuss such matter with any particular person. I find much in the Christian scriptures to be of value, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every single verse or concept. I go to church regularly with my wife as a non-participant, and I enjoy it even of I don't agree with everything. She goes to synagogue with me, and the irony is that most of what she hears there she agrees with.

 

[paarsurrey]

That does not make it wrong though, even if that might sound incorrect. it is the finished product that counts, though I take your point

The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.

NT Bible only depicted the mythical cruel God invented by Paul who preferred to kill his own son for the imaginary sins of the human beings.

So the OT and the NT have mixed up things. Some or a large number of them are definitely corruptions done and highlighted out of proportions by the sinful scribes for their own nefarious motives.

Regards

 

[CMike]

The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.
That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God.

NT Bible only depicted the mythical cruel God invented by Paul who preferred to kill his own son for the imaginary sins of the human beings.

So the OT and the NT have mixed up things. Some or a large number of them are definitely corruptions done and highlighted out of proportions by the sinful scribes for their own nefarious motives.

Regards

Then obviously you have no clue regarding jewish scriptures.

 

[RabbiO]

Then obviously you have no clue regarding jewish scriptures.

Based on previous posts I believe the poster is a Muslim and the Muslim position is that both Jews and Christians are dealing with corrupted scripture, the only accurate scripture being the Qu'ran.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Why would I "sound like an atheist", which I'm not? If your inner witness tell you something, let me remind you that "inner" may apply to your consideration but maybe not the consideration of many others as interpretation is always variable. The point becomes that "Eloheim" is plural for reasons that are not really abundantly clear, but to assume that it refers to Jesus along with the HS and God is just your interpretation.

But let's look at in another way. Christians often refer to Jesus as "God's only begotten son", or some similar words. OK, if God is the Father and Jesus is the son, then how in the world can father and son be one and the same? I have a son, and he's not exactly the same as I, but he is at least partially of me.

We use different labels to differentiate differences, so "father" and "son" simply cannot be one and the same. The son could be of the father to a certain extent, but they simply cannot logically be one and the same.

Explanations which fit well usually fit well because they are right. We know early Yisrael went after other gods, so why not use a plural word, "elohiym".

The Father and son is like water. Separate water and you see difference, put them together and they are the same. We should not limit God with our human understandings

 

[Robert.Evans]

Every single set of religious scriptures that I have ever read (I used to teach comparative religions) claims their scriptures were witnessed one way or another.

Why all or nothing?

That is a divinity that you assume.

I don't care if you ignore ours, nor do I particularity feel compulsed to discuss such matter with any particular person. I find much in the Christian scriptures to be of value, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every single verse or concept. I go to church regularly with my wife as a non-participant, and I enjoy it even of I don't agree with everything. She goes to synagogue with me, and the irony is that most of what she hears there she agrees with.

I do not ignore yours; they are one of the same;

 

[metis]

Explanations which fit well usually fit well because they are right. We know early Yisrael went after other gods, so why not use a plural word, "elohiym".

Simply because there's no indication that this is what is being referred to especially in light of so many other verses whereas "Eloheim" is being used.

The Father and son is like water. Separate water and you see difference, put them together and they are the same. We should not limit God with our human understandings

Since you state that our human understanding of God is limited, then how can you turn around and then say Jesus and God are one? Seems like you're using a double standard here. But let me post several verses to then get your response:

Matthew 10 [32]: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;[32] So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;..."

"Matthew 11 [32]: So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;..."

Matthew 24 [36]: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

Mark 14 [36]: "And he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt.'"

OK, notice something here as far as the situation vis-a-vis Jesus and God? If Jesus is God, then exactly whom is Jesus praying to-- himself? Notice Jesus also states that he does not know when the "day and the hour" will come-- only the Father?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Simply because there's no indication that this is what is being referred to especially in light of so many other verses whereas "Eloheim" is being used.



Since you state that our human understanding of God is limited, then how can you turn around and then say Jesus and God are one? Seems like you're using a double standard here. But let me post several verses to then get your response:

Matthew 10 [32]: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;[32] So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;..."

"Matthew 11 [32]: So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;..."

Matthew 24 [36]: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

Mark 14 [36]: "And he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt.'"

OK, notice something here as far as the situation vis-a-vis Jesus and God? If Jesus is God, then exactly whom is Jesus praying to-- himself? Notice Jesus also states that he does not know when the "day and the hour" will come-- only the Father?

This is an old argument. I am not disagreeing with you though, he was a man, because he 'emptied himself'. But even other Jews on this site have said that all there is, is God, and even the lord himself said, "did I not say you are gods (elohiym)". Perhaps you just don't look at it in such a deep level as I do. There has to be something of us which could be considered a God particle (if you will) that is not seen, much like the mind is not seen, God is not seen, atoms are not seen, but all of those invisible things are the things which are most important; because 'that which is seen is made by that which is not seen' as it is written.

EDIT
Either way, we still have verses like Heb1.8 which declares him to be God, ho theos

 

[paarsurrey]

Then obviously you have no clue regarding jewish scriptures.

Please quote from Torah to prove your point.

Regards

 

[metis]

This is an old argument. I am not disagreeing with you though, he was a man, because he 'emptied himself'. But even other Jews on this site have said that all there is, is God, and even the lord himself said, "did I not say you are gods (elohiym)". Perhaps you just don't look at it in such a deep level as I do. There has to be something of us which could be considered a God particle (if you will) that is not seen, much like the mind is not seen, God is not seen, atoms are not seen, but all of those invisible things are the things which are most important; because 'that which is seen is made by that which is not seen' as it is written.

EDIT
Either way, we still have verses like Heb1.8 which declares him to be God, ho theos

Again, you ignore matters that quite clearly indicate that your "deep level' is more imagination than reality. Your understanding of how we deal with various interpretations within our commentary system is pretty much nonexistent; your attempt to manipulate one of the Hebrew names for God is disingenuous; and even your supposed "deep level" of even understanding the Christian scriptures is actually quite shallow.

Anyhow, I will leave this conversation with you, not out of anger, but out of disappointment.

shalom

 

[Robert.Evans]

Again, you ignore matters that quite clearly indicate that your "deep level' is more imagination than reality.

or you don't understand it. Yet I said I agree with you, but you sound as if I did not?!

Your understanding of how we deal with various interpretations within our commentary system is pretty much nonexistent;

who is "we"?

your attempt to manipulate one of the Hebrew names for God is disingenuous;

how so? it is elohiym and it is rendered as gods.

and even your supposed "deep level" of even understanding the Christian scriptures is actually quite shallow.

according to you

Anyhow, I will leave this conversation with you, not out of anger, but out of disappointment.

shalom

so after basically telling me I am an idiot, you say peace. And that somehow negates everything else you said.

I will leave you with the quote from your own writings. If it is wrong of course, then you let me know, if indeed you have an answer:

Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods,[elohiym] sons of the Most High, all of you

 

[metis]

Some might be interested in this:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִי&#1501 is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language.

When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers". It is generally thought that Elohim is a formation from eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (אֵל, ʾēl). It is usually translated as "God" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods". The related nouns eloah (אלו&#1492 and el (אֵ&#1500 are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim... -- Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Robert.Evans]

Some might be interested in this:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִי&#1501 is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language.

When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers". It is generally thought that Elohim is a formation from eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il (אֵל, ʾēl). It is usually translated as "God" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities. With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods". The related nouns eloah (אלו&#1492 and el (אֵ&#1500 are used as proper names or as generics, in which case they are interchangeable with elohim... -- Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"some" might mean me then, eh. Elohiym is still plural. You said yourself that you don't know why. I am aware that inflection changes the word. It makes a plural word into a singular; if you are saying that is wrong then say so. The easy answer is that they worshipped gods from time to time, and thus used that word. The inflection was changed to make it singular as they got rid of the old gods and became a monotheistic faith

 

[CMike]

Here is why.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/638043/jewish/Why-is-Gd-Called-Elokim.htm

When Abraham started off, people understood that there is one original G‑d who is the essence of being. This is what we refer to with the four-letter name, the Tetragrammaton, whose code name in Kabbalah is "Havaya." That name can only be written in singular form.

In fact, it is basically a conjugation of the verb "to be."
They knew of this concept of Havaya, but they considered it far too lofty an idea, seemingly inaccessible and irrelevant to their lives. Instead, they connected to the many forces of nature.

They called these "Elohim"—meaning, "mighty forces."
Abraham came along and said, "You guys got it all wrong. Havaya is Elohim! It's all one! He is the essence of being and He is all the forces of nature in one big package!"

That's why, as the Biblical commentator Baal HaTurim points out, the Hebrew letters in the name Elohim have the same gematria (numerical value) as "haTeva"—which means the natural order.

For more on the relation of these two names of G‑d, see Shaar HaYichud V'ha-Emunah by Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi. You can find that here.

 

[CMike]

Explanations which fit well usually fit well because they are right. We know early Yisrael went after other gods, so why not use a plural word, "elohiym".

The Father and son is like water. Separate water and you see difference, put them together and they are the same. We should not limit God with our human understandings

Because they didn't.

Jews that followed the Torah, only worshipped one G-D.

That would be the G-D of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It certainly had nothing to do with jesus.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by metis
"Hebrews" is not in Torah nor the Tanakh. To me when I read the gospels, I much more get the feeling that the early church didn't believe that Jesus was God but, instead, that Jesus was of God. This especially gets magnified when one reads the gospels and notes that many times Jesus refers to "the Father" in a manner that is different than himself.

It is witnessed Scripture, if you ignore that from Yisrael, then are you to ignore it all? There is much that can be discussed as regards Yahshuah and his divinity. But a simple verse like Heb 1.8 has to be answered. If you ignore it, then we can ignore yours. How then do we discuss?

The christian bible has absolutely no authority in judaism. You are welcome to ignore the jewish scriptures.

In fact, I would rather christians ignore jewish scriptures than twist it around to fit their beliefs.

 

[CMike]

But I have just told that I am not, so why say it? But to extend this point, if it is the same God, then did he have a personality change for the NT? How do you explain the difference in 'kill them all' and 'God is love'

Are you referring to when jesus said to kill anyone who doesn't accept him as king or the love shown by him saying that no matter how good of a person someone is if he doesn't accept jesus then he is going to hell?

Which indication of love please?

 

[metis]

Because they didn't.

Jews that followed the Torah, only worshipped one G-D.

That would be the G-D of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It certainly had nothing to do with jesus.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

Isn't it just amazing that we get a parade of these people in here to tell us how to interpret the scriptures we wrote, interpreted, commented on, and translated into other languages, the "education" of which they undoubtedly must have received from sitting back and reading their little English-language Bible while having no background in any serious theology or Torah study? Oh ya, we are just so ignorant that we could never top that.

 

[Sabour]

Ok, but if Yahshuah is not God, then what would you say of Hebrews 1.8. That is what a Trinitarian would say. There is more than just the gospels.

And if he is still called in three places 'begotten' then what of that?

I think I already addressed that.

I said that the examples I provided aren't the only men made additions.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Because they didn't.

Jews that followed the Torah, only worshipped one G-D.

That would be the G-D of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It certainly had nothing to do with jesus.

As you say, "Jews that followed the Torah", but they did not all do that, which is my point I think:

This is just one passage:

Jdg 2:11 And the people of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and served the Baals.
Jdg 2:12 And they abandoned the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt. They went after other gods, from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed down to them. And they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdg 2:13 They abandoned the LORD and served the Baals and the Ashtaroth.


Thus the Hebrew "elohiym" would make sense as plural, because that would be how it was used. The fact that they decided to reject all others and keep that title, changing the inflection to make it read singular is neither here nor there. I think that is the best answer, I see no reason as of yet to say it is wrong