The Qur'an allows sex-slaves...!?

[Godobeyer]

That would still be dealing in human beings.

I don't understand , can you explain ?

 

[crossfire]

That would still be dealing in human beings.

I don't understand , can you explain ?

"Transfer of Ownership" (even if it is a gift) of a human being = dealing in human beings. (Human Trafficking)
Edit to add:
definition of trafficking:

traf·fic
ˈtrafik/
verb
gerund or present participle: trafficking

1. deal or trade in something illegal.
   "the government will vigorously pursue individuals who traffic in drugs"
   synonyms: trade (in), deal (in), do business in, buy and sell; More

Wrong livelihood includes dealing (trafficking) in weapons, intoxicants, humans, meat, and poisons.

human trafficking definition:

the illegal movement of people, typically for the purposes of forced labor or commercial sexual exploitation.​

 

[Godobeyer]

"Transfer of Ownership" (even if it is a gift) of a human being = dealing in human beings. (Human Trafficking)

Bahai ban trade with slaves , not ban slavery.

 

[crossfire]

Bahai ban trade with slaves , not ban slavery.

The post you quoted was specifically about Buddhism. (More than 1,000 years before Islam and about 2500 years before Baha'i)

 

[Godobeyer]

The post you quoted was specifically about Buddhism. (More than 1,000 years before Islam and about 2500 years before Baha'i)

Again it's also talking about trade and business, check this out :



There were 5 types of slaves in ancient India:

1. Those born to enslaved mothers (amayadasa)
2. Those purchased (dhanenakita)
3. Those who voluntarily became slaves (sayam upayanti), eg. to escape starvation during famine.
4. Those who became slaves out of fear (bhayapanunna), and
5. Prisoners of war (kammaranito)

Ja.IV,285; Vin.IV,224).

The Buddha said that the buying and selling of human beings is a wrong means of livelihood for laypepole (A.III,207)
and he forbade monks and nuns to accept gifts of slaves or to own them (D.I,5).
These teachings seem to be the oldest known prohibition against slavery.

(A-Z Guide to Buddhism, S. Dhammika)

Despite this,
slavery existed in all Buddhist countries as it did everyone in the world.

The last country in the world to abolish slavery was Buddhist Bhutan in 1962, although it continued in parts of the Middle East and Africa up to the present day.

 

[crossfire]

Again it's also talking about trade and business, check this out :



There were 5 types of slaves in ancient India:

1. Those born to enslaved mothers (amayadasa)
2. Those purchased (dhanenakita)
3. Those who voluntarily became slaves (sayam upayanti), eg. to escape starvation during famine.
4. Those who became slaves out of fear (bhayapanunna), and
5. Prisoners of war (kammaranito)

Ja.IV,285; Vin.IV,224).

The Buddha said that the buying and selling of human beings is a wrong means of livelihood for laypepole (A.III,207)
and he forbade monks and nuns to accept gifts of slaves or to own them (D.I,5).
These teachings seem to be the oldest known prohibition against slavery.

(A-Z Guide to Buddhism, S. Dhammika)

Despite this,
slavery existed in all Buddhist countries as it did everyone in the world.

The last country in the world to abolish slavery was Buddhist Bhutan in 1962, although it continued in parts of the Middle East and Africa up to the present day.

The Eightfold Path is the way to end suffering. It's not the same as political law.

 

[firedragon]

Actually, they don't. The Jewish scriptures support having servants but not chattel slaves.

“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Thats from Leviticus, cut and paste from TNIV that I use, that's chattel slavery explicitly explained, but lo and behold, not for the Israelites.

You dont buy servants to become property, inherit or leave them to your children as inherited property to be slaves for life. I didn't bring up your scriptures or any other scripture here because the topic was if Islam okays "sex with slaves". But I knew that would be inevitable when you started on history and irrelevant stuff for theology.

No where in the Quran does it explain buying, bequeathing and inheriting slaves for life etc. Thus, its not that I dont believe you when you say Jewish scriptures dont support slaves, I think its a lie. Unless you can explain that and show me that inheriting, bequeathing and buying slaves to slave for life means something something else.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

No, slavery of all kinds is outlawed in Islam.

Maria RA was not a slave during her life with Prophet Muhammad, she was a wife.

People need to get their facts straight.

 

[Demonslayer]

The holy books love slavery overall. God is a big fan of human trafficking.

 

[Demonslayer]

No, slavery of all kinds is outlawed in Islam.

You couldn't tell that by reading the Quran. You can't turn a page without running into a slavery reference.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

You couldn't tell that by reading the Quran. You can't turn a page without running into a slavery reference.

That is yet more of a lie.

Islam, specifically via the life of the Prophet PBUH and teh Quran talks, time and time again of freeing slaves. It's one of the charitable duties of a muslim where and when possible.

 

[firedragon]

You couldn't tell that by reading the Quran. You can't turn a page without running into a slavery reference.

Show me.

You can take that as a few pages, or one page. Its the first chapter and the beginning of the second chapter.

 

[YmirGF]

In the spirit of your nuanced version of history, why would you suggest that the prohibition of slavery in Indonesia was a reluctant sop to 'the civilised world', rather than reflecting the desires of the Indonesian people and their secular nationalist leader who advocated a populist form of socialism? (Ymir: It probably isn't a fashion there simply because they know how the rest of the world would react.)

No, Augustus, that is not what I was meaning. No country in the world, at the time Indonesia was incorporated would have "gotten away" with having a slave trade. The whole world had pretty well evolved past that stage. It was a crass comment based on the idea that slavery has never been abolished in Islam, nor has the practice of owning slaves. The only thing I have ever seen on the matter is the admonition to both treat slaves kindly and to even free them. There is simply no exhortation to give up slaves altogether, as Muhammad himself, to his dying day, owned slaves.

 

[Augustus]

No country in the world, at the time Indonesia was incorporated would have "gotten away" with having a slave trade.

Mauritania did

 

[Nefelie]

It's fact ,I am not try to change.

Yes dear. And I’m queen Cleopatra.

Slavery is supported in the Jewish scriptures, too.

Passages, please.

This video needs more attention.

This video is 2 hours long! I think it’s a time problem.
Personally, I watched some parts of it here and there. That was all the time I had for it.
It is good that there are Muslims that ban slavery, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Qur’an doesn’t have a firm stand against it… and it is supposed to be god’s word, is it not?

Here is a question for all of you Muslims:
Slavery is forbidden by international law. But the Qur’an does not forbid it. So, if a Muslim, living in a Muslim country, wishes to have slaves, will he go to trial or not? And if he does, can’t he just evoke the Qur’an and get away with it?

~~~

Shaul, I really do admire your patience with FearGod

~~~

And I spent several months reading a translation that doesn't exist, yeah right!!!! That I was given as a gift by the mosque, who had tonnes of Yusef Ali translations which they told me weren't very good, and only a few of this one which were I assume quite expensive by comparison, and yet because its not available on your search of the internet, you claim it doesn't exist and I am a liar. great way to have a dialogue, you're not doing well with your other arguments either, I'm absolutely sure Zoroastrian society had just as big a problem with slavery as Islam did.

I tried to find it too and couldn't. Do you have a photo or something to prove the existence of that translation?

.

 

[Raahim]

Yes dear. And I’m queen Cleopatra.



Passages, please.



This video is 2 hours long! I think it’s a time problem.
Personally, I watched some parts of it here and there. That was all the time I had for it.
It is good that there are Muslims that ban slavery, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Qur’an doesn’t have a firm stand against it… and it is supposed to be god’s word, is it not?

Here is a question for all of you Muslims:
Slavery is forbidden by international law. But the Qur’an does not forbid it. So, if a Muslim, living in a Muslim country, wishes to have slaves, will he go to trial or not? And if he does, can’t he just evoke the Qur’an and get away with it?

~~~

Shaul, I really do admire your patience with FearGod

~~~



I tried to find it too and couldn't. Do you have a photo or something to prove the existence of that translation?

.

Muhammad ﷺ is a person we need to look up to & he in fact did forbid slavery. Multiple times Muhammad ﷺ said to free slaves & not to have one, so logical conclusion is that Muslims should not have slaves in this period and in the future, Muslims in the time of Prophet ﷺ (when slaves were common thing) freed slaves. The video despite lasting two hours gave all answers about this topic.

 

[BSM1]

When told that islam teaches to free slaves, you said "to free a slave one must first have a slave" indicating that that islam is teaching slavery.

If you were taught to solve your problems, does that mean the person that taught you is encouraging having problems?

That was my point. If you suggest a solution for a problem that exists, that doesn't mean you are supporting it.

I am trying to understand your point but it seems you are still skirting to issue. Your quote in no way says to free all slaves in captivity, nor does it condemn slavery, it says to give up one of your slaves as compensation for harming a non-slave. Again you can't give up something you don't have in the first place.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

No, slavery of all kinds is outlawed in Islam.

Then why did it take Western colonial influence in the Middle East to put said outlawing of slavery into practice in actual lawmaking? Why were there no pro-abolition movements in the Muslim world prior to this?

 

[Demonslayer]

Muslims, don't get bent out of shape because your holy book supports slavery, as the Bible does as well. The Abrahamic God supports slavery...Quran, Torah, Old Testament, New Testament...human slavery is accepted all over the place in all of these works. As the old saying goes, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a bit about slavery in any of the Abrahamic holy books.

What this should tell every thinking person is that the reason slavery is so ingrained in these works is because these "holy books" were written by ancient men, in a time when slavery was a given and accepted part of society, and not inspired by some Omnibenevolent Overlord.

Because otherwise, if there was some God and this God was really the pinnacle of morality, all of the holy books would just say: "God says no human slavery, ever, under any circumstance" and that would be the end of it. The mental gymnastics required to believe that 1) God is the pinnacle of morality and 2) this same God inspired written works that condone human slavery all over the place, are just too great.

 

[Raahim]

Muslims, don't get bent out of shape because your holy book supports slavery, as the Bible does as well. The Abrahamic God supports slavery...Quran, Torah, Old Testament, New Testament...human slavery is accepted all over the place in all of these works. As the old saying goes, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a bit about slavery in any of the Abrahamic holy books.

What this should tell every thinking person is that the reason slavery is so ingrained in these works is because these "holy books" were written by ancient men, in a time when slavery was a given and accepted part of society, and not inspired by some Omnibenevolent Overlord.

Because otherwise, if there was some God and this God was really the pinnacle of morality, all of the holy books would just say: "God says no human slavery, ever, under any circumstance" and that would be the end of it. The mental gymnastics required to believe that 1) God is the pinnacle of morality and 2) this same God inspired written works that condone human slavery all over the place, are just too great.

Qur'an does not support slavery. Concept of slave is different in Islam than it's in for e.g in Roman Empire. Judaism has different rules depending on slave's roots & Christianity was influenced by Rome in sense of slavery. If Qur'an was given in this time (where slavery was not an global issue) it wouldn't be mentioned at all, since in the time Qur'an was given had slavery as huge issue around the globe it had to deal with it in moral ways.