The real cause of Islamic terrorism-- the yogic perspective

[niranjan]

Probably best to consider Vivekanada's words quoted in the OP and disregard the rest of the thread.

I believe the rest is also relevant as historical facts substantiating Vivekananda's teachings.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

After all that I still don't know what to debate? Are we to take from this that all muslims are evil, taught by an evil religion? If that is your point, we get it.....

 

[niranjan]

Neither me nor Vivekananda has stated that all koranic teachings are evil. Both of us appreciated the good points of Islam like sufism and universal brotherhood.

I have made my point in a previous post in this thread that there are certain verses in the quran that violate morality. And these verses should either be eradicated, or moderate muslim scholars should educate their community on the havoc and terrible carnage that has been committed by fanatics guided by these particular verses and make sure that it doesn't happen again. I believe this is the pragmatic and logical solution to islamic terrorism and fundamentalism.

Also it would be a good thing for islamic culture and society to assimilate the principles of secular humanism, which will help their faith and society to evolve and adapt to the global world and culture and ensure universal peace and justice.

 

[Sahar]

And these verses should either be eradicated

moderate muslim scholars should educate their community on the havoc and terrible carnage that has been committed by fanatics guided by these particular verses and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Also it would be a good thing for islamic culture and society to assimilate the principles of secular humanism, which will help their faith and society to evolve and adapt to the global world and culture and ensure universal peace and justice.

I'll tell you the pragmatic and logical solution for all problems of muslims; returning to their Islam!

 

[niranjan]

I'll tell you the pragmatic and logical solution for all problems of muslims; returning to their Islam!

' Returning to their Islam ' minus the verses I mentioned above. :yes:

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

' Returning to their Islam ' minus the verses I mentioned above

And if we don't eradicate the verses?

 

[Ozzie]

I believe the rest is also relevant as historical facts substantiating Vivekananda's teachings.

"Historical facts" tend to cloud a person's teachings, where the actual words of the teacher are publically available (as is the case with Vivekanada). I regret the reality of Jesus's and Buddha's words not being publically available. Accurate interpretation of a sage's words depends entirely upon knowledge of the context within which they were uttered.

 

[niranjan]

And if we don't eradicate the verses?

I had provided an option. Moderate muslim scholars can educate their community on the bloodshed and great suffering created as a result of the adherence to these particular verses by muslim fundamentalists and hence can make sure that it is not repeated again . In that case, there is no need to eradicate the verses.

 

[niranjan]

"Historical facts" tend to cloud a person's teachings, where the actual words of the teacher are publically available (as is the case with Vivekanada)..

And these historical facts are also publicly available. The atrocities committed by Islamic fundamentalists against the Bahais, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Jains, Hindus,Sikhs, Assyrians in Asia are well documented and it is there for everyone to see.

"
I regret the reality of Jesus's and Buddha's words not being publically available. Accurate interpretation of a sage's words depends entirely upon knowledge of the context within which they were uttered.

Well, Buddhas teachings are publicly available in a lot of books and through monks in monasteries.

 

[mohamedhassan]

Your making other religions seem so nice. Let me show you what hindu's have done

The Hindu Nationalist movement, Sangh Parivar, effectively ousted the INC from parliement and transformed the India society. It did so partially by advocating Milton Friedman type capitalist reforms enabling a new class of Hindu rich and powerful (this occurred as a culmination of decades of American aid to India via assistance of capital investment in infrastructure, education, etc). Did the Sangh Parivar work with American efforts to oust the INC which was otherwise traditionally opposed to free market capitalism and weary of American influence? The INC was 'old money' with ties to Britain while the Sangh Parivar was 'new money' with ties to America.

The Sangh Parivar advocated a nationalism which galvanized Hindus against Muslims, forming poor villagers into RSS militias which targetted Muslims as enemies. RSS and Sangh Parivar efforts reached crescendoes in the Babri Mosque (Ayodhra) incident which elevated the BJP to national political power. It also was empowered by the aftermath of the Gujurat train massacres/riots (recently identified by an independent inquiry as caused by an accident rather than Muslim mob as the BJP led Gujurat govt claimed).
The connection should be noted that the Hindu nationalism used for the villification of Muslims galvanized voters to vote for (knowingly and unknowingly) the BJP (the political face of the RSS And Sangh Parivar movement) and free market capitalist reforms which have in turn enabled massive economic growth. The massive economic growth in India during the 1990s parrelleled massive American infusion of investments, financing, etc. This is hardly coincidental. American firms and foreign policy towards India had been working towards preparing India for capitalist development since its independence from Britain. So one must ask: were American efforts behind the rise to power of the BJP and Sangh Parivar movement?

The RSS and the BJP have utilized (hereonto unlabelled by American political interests as such) terrorist tactics (ie. violence and threat of violence against civilians) for their strategy against Muslims. This has included riots, arsons of Muslim businesses and homes, murders and rapes to ethnically cleanse mixed neighborhoods. These appear to be part of a strategy to empower Hindu nationalist parties and weaken Muslim economic and political power district by district and province by province. (Ie. Must it be mentioned that the BJP led govt outlawed conversion to Islam AND the slaughter and consumption of beef?) Sangh Parivar thought identifies certain religious beliefs as "Hindu", such as buddhism, hinduism, sikhism. It recognizes certain beliefs as foreign and thus needing to be repressed: Islam, Christianity, Judaism. As well, Sangh Parivar thought considers all ethnic Indian people as "Hindus" even if they are Muslim, Christian, atheist, etc. Thus, all people not of the "Hindu" belief should be "returned" to their rightful "Hindu" identity eventually rather than tolerated. Thus BJP legislation becomes progressively anti monotheist and anti Islam.

The most widely seen effort of Sangh Parivar tactics was the Nov 2001 attack on parliement which the BJP led Indian govt used to justify heightened military tension with Pakistan and connect India with the Bush War on Terror campaign. The Guardian recently ran an article on this titled: India's Shame. Sangh Parivar operatives appear to be involved in manipulating the attack as a pretext for India's "war" much as Russia used/planned the Moscow apartment bombings of 1999 as a pretext of its "war" and America used the 9/11/01 attacks as pretext for its "war".

 

[mohamedhassan]

In India, Muslims tortured the Sikh Gurus and their families exactly as prescribed by the Koran. For example, the Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur was imprisoned in a cage like a wild animal, when he refused to forsake his religion for Islam. Three of his disciples were murdered in front of his eyes. One of them was Bhai Mati Das. He was sawed alive into little pieces. The other was wrapped up in cotton and burnt alive. Bhai Dyala, the third one, was boiled alive in a cauldron. Guru Tegh Bahadur himself was brutally tortured and killed in a similar fashion.

THIS IS COMPELETLY FALSE since when have muslims forced ppl to convert to their religion????????? this goes against islam and I highly doubt that this ever occured!!! Plus muslims don't use torture for any reason, check the people the Taliban have released and you'll see what they say. One of them actually reverted after she was released!!

 

[mohamedhassan]

As the result of the Báb's execution in 1850 by a firing squad in Tabriz, an assassination attempt was instigated on the King of Persia, Nasser-al-Din Shah, two years later by a handful of angry Bábís. Although the assassins claimed they were working alone, the entire Bábí community was blamed, and a slaughter of several thousand Bábís followed. Many of the Bábís who were not killed, including Bahá'u'lláh, were imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál (Black Pit), an underground dungeon of Tehran.[6] Bahá'u'lláh himself was found to be innocent of complicity in the assassination plot,[3] but remained in the Síyáh-Chál over four months.

If i'm not wrong didn't Bahullah claim prophethood and say he was a prophet after Muhammad(saw)?

 

[niranjan]

Your making other religions seem so nice. Let me show you what hindu's have done

The Hindu Nationalist movement, Sangh Parivar, effectively ousted the INC from parliement and transformed the India society. It did so partially by advocating Milton Friedman type capitalist reforms enabling a new class of Hindu rich and powerful (this occurred as a culmination of decades of American aid to India via assistance of capital investment in infrastructure, education, etc). Did the Sangh Parivar work with American efforts to oust the INC which was otherwise traditionally opposed to free market capitalism and weary of American influence? The INC was 'old money' with ties to Britain while the Sangh Parivar was 'new money' with ties to America.

The Sangh Parivar advocated a nationalism which galvanized Hindus against Muslims, forming poor villagers into RSS militias which targetted Muslims as enemies. RSS and Sangh Parivar efforts reached crescendoes in the Babri Mosque (Ayodhra) incident which elevated the BJP to national political power. It also was empowered by the aftermath of the Gujurat train massacres/riots (recently identified by an independent inquiry as caused by an accident rather than Muslim mob as the BJP led Gujurat govt claimed).
The connection should be noted that the Hindu nationalism used for the villification of Muslims galvanized voters to vote for (knowingly and unknowingly) the BJP (the political face of the RSS And Sangh Parivar movement) and free market capitalist reforms which have in turn enabled massive economic growth. The massive economic growth in India during the 1990s parrelleled massive American infusion of investments, financing, etc. This is hardly coincidental. American firms and foreign policy towards India had been working towards preparing India for capitalist development since its independence from Britain. So one must ask: were American efforts behind the rise to power of the BJP and Sangh Parivar movement?

The RSS and the BJP have utilized (hereonto unlabelled by American political interests as such) terrorist tactics (ie. violence and threat of violence against civilians) for their strategy against Muslims. This has included riots, arsons of Muslim businesses and homes, murders and rapes to ethnically cleanse mixed neighborhoods. These appear to be part of a strategy to empower Hindu nationalist parties and weaken Muslim economic and political power district by district and province by province. (Ie. Must it be mentioned that the BJP led govt outlawed conversion to Islam AND the slaughter and consumption of beef?) Sangh Parivar thought identifies certain religious beliefs as "Hindu", such as buddhism, hinduism, sikhism. It recognizes certain beliefs as foreign and thus needing to be repressed: Islam, Christianity, Judaism. As well, Sangh Parivar thought considers all ethnic Indian people as "Hindus" even if they are Muslim, Christian, atheist, etc. Thus, all people not of the "Hindu" belief should be "returned" to their rightful "Hindu" identity eventually rather than tolerated. Thus BJP legislation becomes progressively anti monotheist and anti Islam.

The most widely seen effort of Sangh Parivar tactics was the Nov 2001 attack on parliement which the BJP led Indian govt used to justify heightened military tension with Pakistan and connect India with the Bush War on Terror campaign. The Guardian recently ran an article on this titled: India's Shame. Sangh Parivar operatives appear to be involved in manipulating the attack as a pretext for India's "war" much as Russia used/planned the Moscow apartment bombings of 1999 as a pretext of its "war" and America used the 9/11/01 attacks as pretext for its "war".

This thread is about the origin of Islamic terrorism , which is a global problem and which has affected the assyrians, buddhists, sikhs, hindus, jains, bahais, zoroastrians in Asia. Not about hindu fundamentalism. Hindu fundamentalists never persecuted the bahais, or zoroastrians or jews or jains or others. If you want to discuss this , put it in an another thread, and I am only happy in discussing it.

hindus definetely are not involved in suicide bombings and terror attacks all over the world.
When the jews, fleeing roman persecution and the destruction of their temple, fled to India, they were given full refuge by hindus, and full freedom of worship as well.
There is a substantial jewish population in India, and India is the only country in the world which has never discriminated against its jewish population on the grounds of ethnicity, culture and religion.

Similarly with the Zoroastrians , who fleeing Islamic persecution in Iran, escaped to India, where they were given full freedom of worship and refuge by the hindus.
There is a substantial Zoroastrian population in India, with its culture and heritage and religion intact .

Similarly with the Bahais, who while persecuted savagely in Islamic countries, went to India ,where they were given full freedom of worship and refuge as well. I am proud to say that India has the largest number of bahais in the world and the bahai lotus temple in delhi is world famous.

Similarly with the Tibetan buddhists, who fleeing chinese communist persecution in Tibet, escaped to India, where they were given full freedom of worship and refuge by the hindus, and we have a substantial tibetan buddhist population as well, headed by the Dalai Lama.

Similarly many Syrian christians too came to India, where again they were given refuge and full freedom of worship by the hindus.

Also our present president is a muslim ( who was voted into power by the hindu nationalist party BJP) and our prime minister is a sikh,and the head of the governing party in India is a christian.

This itself says a lot about our secular credentials in an overwhelmingly hindu majority nation.

 

[niranjan]

THIS IS COMPELETLY FALSE since when have muslims forced ppl to convert to their religion????????? !!

Yeah sure, you seem to be living in a fools paradise. Ever heard of the Khalsa, the military wing of Sikhism , which was created by Guru Govind Singh, after the brutal murder of the 9th guru Teg Bahadur by Aurangzeb and islamic fanatics. The khalsa successfully prevented the killing of innocent sikhs and hindus by musilm fanatics and the rape of their ladies by them. The Khalsa was the foundation of the Sikh empire , which reached its peak ,during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. All this is historical facts and you can ask any sikh for this or check historical books.

this goes against islam and I highly doubt that this ever occured!!! Plus muslims don't use torture for any reason, check the people the Taliban have released and you'll see what they say. One of them actually reverted after she was released!!

Yeah sure, I am very well aware of the use of physical torture by muslim fundamentalists against the unbelievers and even among themselves. It is there in the quran as well.


Also please don't extoll the merits of the Taliban. We all know what these medieval guys in the modern era have done and the oppression of their own people not to mention the sikhs in afghanistan ,who fled from there. And we know how they destroyed the world famous bamiyan buddhist statues which was condemned by the world.

I clearly remember reading about a muslim woman, who unknowingly exposed her arm during a wedding , and which was amputated by the taliban.

 

[niranjan]

If i'm not wrong didn't Bahullah claim prophethood and say he was a prophet after Muhammad(saw)?

Yes, and after seeing the nobility and greatness of his teachings, I am convinced that Bahaullah is a prophet.

 

[mohamedhassan]

Listen I'm really not going to go back an forth debating if what some people have done in the name of islam is justified or not. I am not aware of what happened in india but if it violated the rights of Islam I apologize. However, to brand any muslim who takes up arms as a Fanatic or Extremist is totally bizarre and Ludicrus. Muslims like any other people have the right to defend themseleves and to govern themselves according to their laws with out external interference. It is unfair to call people who are fighting to defend themselves and thier religion, land, etc... as Terrorists, extermists and what ever. I fail to see how Terrorism affects the world today and if your willing to show me please do so

I'm not familiar with India and most of your history, I'm more familiar with the middle east and what they brand as extermism there. I'll study the history of india one day and i do apologize for my ignorance of it

 

[mohamedhassan]

Yeah sure, I am very well aware of the use of physical torture by muslim fundamentalists against the unbelievers and even among themselves. It is there in the quran as well.

This is not part of islam, Torture is something we do not practise

Also please don't extoll the merits of the Taliban.

I use to think that once when i was feed the lies by the media, then i went to actually search what they really were and its faaaar from the truth. Check wikipedia your self and see what these people actually were

We all know what these medieval guys in the modern era have done and the oppression of their own people

They actually returned stability to the country after 21 years of civil war. Which is more oprressive war or stability??

not to mention the sikhs in afghanistan ,who fled from there.

I have no knowledge of this nor have I known sikhs to exist in afghanistan

And we know how they destroyed the world famous bamiyan buddhist statues which was condemned by the world.

of course the world condemned it, they were fed a pack of lies by war propaganda! No body seemed to Condem the british and the russians when they riddled it with bullets did they? In fact when the Taliban blew it up the british were among the first to condem it an utter change of heart or pure hypocricy? To summerize the UN offered the Taliban money to mantain the Buddist statue and to preserve it. The Taliban told them if the UN were to send money that they woudn't use it for the statue but would use it to feed the starving destite people in their country. The UN refused to pay the people of Afghanistan but was more willing to pay to keep the statue up! so the Taliban decided to blow it up. There are almost no buddist that i know of that live in afghanistan the country is overwhelmingly muslim and as muslim we are forbidden to have statues lying around in public, If buddists wanted the statue badly, they could have taken it and the Taliban was willing to sell it as long as the people were fed but the international community refused and turned on them when they did blow it up

I clearly remember reading about a muslim woman, who unknowingly exposed her arm during a wedding , and which was amputated by the taliban.

I remember reading alot of stuff that is horrible and very grusume, but almost all a pack of lies! Its true that CULTURALLY some people do some terrible stuff (like beat women etc...) but as a state issues like this are riduculus. An english reporter went there before the invasion of the country and most of her cloths fell off, not just her burqa but most of he cloths were showing and she says that she was waiting for someone to chop her head off but the only thing that happened was a women slapped her and started clothing her!!

I was also told that education for girls wasn't allowed. Another lie! I read among the refugees a number of girls who were in MEDICAL SCHOOL who had to flee the fighting. culturally however, women are discouraged to go to school which is completly unislamic and morally wrong but this wasn't the case in afghanistan

I read a quote by a historian once where he said "You can't bomb nice people" where he was explaining the history of propoganda. I once believed the Taliban were a murderous greusume group who killed and plundered but after doing my own reaserch i come to know other wise

 

[niranjan]

I am not aware of what happened in india but if it violated the rights of Islam I apologize.

And what about the Buddhists in Afghanistan and central asian nations, the Assyrian Christians, the Bahais in Iran and other islamic countries, the Zoroastrians in Persia !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, to brand any muslim who takes up arms as a Fanatic or Extremist is totally bizarre and Ludicrus. Muslims like any other people have the right to defend themseleves and to govern themselves according to their laws with out external interference.

And why are muslims the only ones resorting to terrorist attacks and suicide bombings and other nauseating violence against themselves and non-muslims , all over the world. There are hindus and buddhists and sikhs and bahais all over the world ,and they do not engage in terrorist attacks or kill innocent people.

It is unfair to call people who are fighting to defend themselves and thier religion, land, etc... as Terrorists, extermists and what ever..

sorry, but as an example , the islamic terrorists in Beslan who killed numerous innocent children and raped 15 year old girls , are terrorists and perverts in my dictionary. This is inexcusable. Same with many other muslim seperatist movements all over the world who do such nauseating violent stuff.

I fail to see how Terrorism affects the world today and if your willing to show me please do so..

You seem to be very naive. Ever heard of 9/11, the madrid bombings, beslan, 7/7 in U.K., bomb blasts in mumbai, bali bomb blasts, which are all very recent. All over the world China, Russia, the U.S. , the U.K., denmark, holland, germany, france, spain, sudan, algeria, morocco, libya, egypt, saudi arabia, afghanistan, pakistan, india, bangladesh, thailand, phillipines, indonesia, malaysia , uzbekistan, iran and other countries are suffering from islamic terrorism , which clearly is a global problem.If you haven't heard of any of this, then I must repeat you are living in a fools paradise.

Buddhists, sikhs, jains, hindus, assyrians, zoroastrians, bahais, christians , jews, virtually every religion in the world has suffered from islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. May I know what we have done to deserve this ?

 

[niranjan]

This is not part of islam, Torture is something we do not practise

Yeah sure, we all know how kind and compassionate islamic terrorists are.

I use to think that once when i was feed the lies by the media, then i went to actually search what they really were and its faaaar from the truth. Check wikipedia your self and see what these people actually were.

Thanks for the suggestion. I checked it out. heres the link. It only served to strengthen my convictions. Hope all the readers go through this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

They actually returned stability to the country after 21 years of civil war. Which is more oprressive war or stability??.

They didn't return any stability to the country and were busy fighting the northern alliance.

And I don't know what stability you are talking about , considering the pathetic condition of women under the taliban.

And this is the reason why afghans welcomed the U.S. forces with joy and celebrations after destroying the taliban.

I have no knowledge of this nor have I known sikhs to exist in afghanistan.

They are there, and subjected to intense discrimination as well.

of course the world condemned it, they were fed a pack of lies by war propaganda! No body seemed to Condem the british and the russians when they riddled it with bullets did they?

It may be riddled with bullets, but these massive statues (which showed a flourishing buddhist civilization prior to destruction by islamic fundamentalists ) were still there right. Who destroyed them completely ?

There are almost no buddist that i know of that live in afghanistan the country is overwhelmingly muslim and as muslim we are forbidden to have statues lying around in public,

And how can there be any when they were all tortured and killed.

If buddists wanted the statue badly, they could have taken it and the Taliban was willing to sell it as long as the people were fed but the international community refused and turned on them when they did blow it up

And how can they take massive statues many metres high ?

I read a quote by a historian once where he said "You can't bomb nice people" where he was explaining the history of propoganda. I once believed the Taliban were a murderous greusume group who killed and plundered but after doing my own reaserch i come to know other wise

And that is the reason why the afghans and the northern alliance welcomed the americans with joy , celebrating the destruction of the Taliban. I have seen a lot of photos of these people celebrating and in television as well in India, and they certainly didn't seem to be heartbroken by the fact that the taliban has been destroyed by the americans.

 

[mohamedhassan]

sorri that didn't