The Return of Christ

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes it is 100% faith based.

But Not 100% credulity ( blind faith ) based
The teachings of Jesus are 100% based on his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures
We can travel to and fro throughout the Scriptures by subject or topic arrangement to see a clear picture of Jesus' techings

 

[CG Didymus]

I think the issue is that one first has to have established that Baha'u'llah is trustworthy and truthful. Without that foundation, everything will be questioned.

Which is why I question Baha'is about their beliefs and do as Baha'is recommend... do a personal investigation of truth. There are problems that I have with some of the beliefs and claims of the Baha'is. So, as of now, Baha'u'llah is not trustworthy. He might be "The Messiah" or he might be a false "Messiah." And it's well worth investigating.

Saying a person is "blind" and "Thick headed" doesn't help prove anything to me but to show that Baha'is could very well be the ones that have become blind and thick headed... that their beliefs can't be questioned.

 

[CG Didymus]

Or that Jesus was talking about Baha'u'llah when he promised the Holy Spirit to his disciples in
John 14:25: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

Jesus was talking to his close disciples just before his death. Christians regard it as highly unlikely that he was telling them about Baha'u'llah 2000 years in the future.

The first Bible quote a Baha'i told me fifty years ago was... "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth..."

I knew nothing about the what the Bible said. I assumed what the Baha'i were telling me was the truth. And it sounded true. How clear and obvious, Jesus was telling them exactly about a prophet that was to come in 2000 years and tell them what they "could not bear" to hear at that time.

Then a friend became a born-again Christian and invited me to go with him to Bible studies. I assumed what they told me, that is, their interpretations of the Bible were true.

A couple of years later I saw a Jewish bookstore and went in. Since the Bible was originally their book, I asked how they interpreted things. Especially on why they didn't believe Jesus was their Messiah.

What I came to realize... Going from the Jewish perspective, Christians took the Bible and interpreted a few verses to make it sound like Jesus was the Messiah. The most questionable one for me was when they took the one verse, Isaiah 7:14, and made that into a prophecy about Jesus.

But then the Christians did the same thing to the Baha'is. They showed how Baha'is took a few verses and interpreted them in a way to show how their prophet, Baha'u'llah, was the return of Christ. The strangest one for me, is how Baha'is make the "Three Woes" in Revelation Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. A close second would be the one about Baha'u'llah being the "Spirit of Truth" and "Comforter".

Plenty of good reasons to reject the claims of the new religion. But what about going in the other direction?

Baha'is "know" they are right, and that they are a true religion from God. They look at Christianity and see how they have added in false doctrines and beliefs that have caused them not to recognize God's new messenger.

Then Christians do the same thing with Judaism. It is so obvious that Judaism is stuck believing their traditions that they can't see the "truth" in Christianity.

From the perspective of each one there are good reasons to reject the other religions.

From my perspective I'm beginning to think that all of them are people's ideas about God and truth... rather than being a direct revelation from some God. It seems to me that religions keep evolving. People take parts of old religious belief, tweak them, and come up with something a little better than the religions that came before.

And that's almost what Baha'is say. Except they believe that God sent infallible manifestations that kept updating religious laws and teachings. I think it's very possible it's not God but people doing it.

So, does that work with Baha'u'llah? Did he just take parts of the old religions, mostly Shia Islam, and come up with something new? And, if he did, how would it be different than what we have in the Baha'i Faith?

Of course it is the claim that God told him. That's much more powerful than if he said he came up with all these things. It makes them the "absolute" truth and everything he said, since it came from God, infallible.

But has the teachings of any previous religion ever been the "absolute" truth and infallible? I don't think so. But do some of those religions act as if their teachings are the absolute truth and infallible?

So, for me and the Baha'is, I like some of their teachings but I question and right now reject some of their beliefs.

Why should Christians accept the authority of Baha'u'lla's interpretation, or support the Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ? There are countless interpretations of various Bible passages, made to suit the agendas of all sorts of groups. Especially when it comes to Daniel and Revelations.

I agree.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which is why I question Baha'is about their beliefs and do as Baha'is recommend... do a personal investigation of truth. There are problems that I have with some of the beliefs and claims of the Baha'is. So, as of now, Baha'u'llah is not trustworthy. He might be "The Messiah" or he might be a false "Messiah." And it's well worth investigating.

Saying a person is "blind" and "Thick headed" doesn't help prove anything to me but to show that Baha'is could very well be the ones that have become blind and thick headed... that their beliefs can't be questioned.

@Sumadji
The foundation is no doubt our heart. How willing are we to determine who is a true or false prophet, how just is our heart? I see this is the foundation of faith, it is the key to any search we subsequently take.

We have also often offered it not about what the Baha'i have Offered, as we are human, we may not offer what Baha'u'llah offered in the right light, or at the right time.

Independent search for truth therefore takes its evidence from the source and determines the validity of that evidence. We do not take our understanding from another's opinion of that evidence.

Baha'u'llah makes it easy. He said if you want to determine that evidence, you must immerse yourself in it. He also said ask of the place he was born to determine if he spoke the truth.

As we now live after the life of Baha’u’llah, the evidence of that is those that met him and the records of his life. I was fortunate these are the first things I read of, above for the person of Baha'u'llah was quickly built when I knew the quality of his childhood, and younger life. Both Baha'u'llah and His wife Ásíyih K͟hánum were loved by all and their lives were all about helping those in need.

All the questions have been asked of the Baha'is CG. It is up to you if you want to ask them of Baha’u’llah by seeking as to who Baha'u'llah really was.

Jesus Christ offered, by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But has the teachings of any previous religion ever been the "absolute" truth and infallible? I don't think so. But do some of those religions act as if their teachings are the absolute truth and infallible?

I see that question is first and best answered by our search into truth about the person and life of the Messenger, before they gave the Revelation. We're they trustworthy, we're they truthful, we're they already living a faith based and virtuous life?

The older the faith, the harder this will be to determine.

The teachings of the new Revelation is as a Sword, the very words will challenge current ways of life and concepts, it is by its very nature a woe to humanity, so is that the place to start? I would say most likely not.

But for future generations, they can look back and see the wisdom that was offered. Just as I can look back and see what Baha'u'llah offered to the world being manifested in front of us every day.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

According to the New Testament Jesus was a healer. It's central. The people flocked to him for healing. He backed his words. He walked the walk. The new messiahs all can't do it, and so they try to explain it away, with many words imo

 

[Trailblazer]

So, besides a heavenly hope there is an earthly hope for the meek people who will inherit, Not Heaven, but inherit the Earth

Meek people who are LIVING will inherit the Earth, not meek DEAD people who came out of their graves.

 

[Sumadji]

But then the Christians did the same thing to the Baha'is. They showed how Baha'is took a few verses and interpreted them in a way to show how their prophet, Baha'u'llah, was the return of Christ. The strangest one for me, is how Baha'is make the "Three Woes" in Revelation Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. A close second would be the one about Baha'u'llah being the "Spirit of Truth" and "Comforter".

I have difficulty with Baha’u’lla’s claim to be returned in the station of the Father. I think we have become so accustomed to the teachings of Jesus that we forget how revolutionary they were. He taught us to pray to God as a personal Father. The Sermon on the Mount, that we all now take for granted, was absolutely revolutionary at the time.

Jesus ... remained politically neutral in world affairs

This is central. Christ did not come to change the material world, but to uplift the lost and broken. He spoke to the heart of every individual. And He still does.

 

[Sumadji]

Okay, maybe not so easy in the beginning... when there were several eyewitnesses. The disciples and gospel writers would have had to be in on the hoax. But after a hundred years or so? And especially by the time the NT got put together? Who's going to know? That's what the gospels say happened... It must be true. Then they vote on which stories get in the NT. And they vote to make Jesus God.

It's important to understand that Paul was the first Christian writer, before the gospels, and during the lifetime of Peter, James and John the apostle. Paul is definitive

"... the apostle Paul ... was talking about Jesus by at least the year 32 CE, that is, two years after the date of Jesus’ death. Paul, as I will point out, actually knew, personally, Jesus’ own brother James and his closest disciples Peter and John ..."
Ehrman

 

[CG Didymus]

Why should Christians accept the authority of Baha'u'lla's interpretation, or support the Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ? There are countless interpretations of various Bible passages, made to suit the agendas of all sorts of groups. Especially when it comes to Daniel and Revelations.

The strangest one for me, is how Baha'is make the "Three Woes" in Revelation Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

I found where Abdul Baha' interprets the "Three Woes" to be Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah...

34. “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”[20] The first woe was the advent of the Apostle of God, Muḥammad the son of ‘Abdu’lláh, peace be upon Him. The second woe was that of the Báb, upon Him be glory and praise. The third woe is the great Day of the advent of the Lord of Hosts and the revelation of the promised Beauty. The explanation of this matter is provided in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.”[21] It is therefore evident then that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is upon the heedless, the sinners, and the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the Day of God, and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.​

​

In context these different angels keep sounding trumpets and more judgements come upon the Earth. I have a huge problem with Baha'is trying to make what happens during the different "Woes" fit into what happened during the life times of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

But now I have a huge problem with how Abdul Baha' justifies interpreting the "Three Woes" as these three people they call "manifestations." He says it is "evident" that the "day" of woe is the day of the Lord based on some verse in Ezekiel.

The question I have is... Do Baha'is then interpret every time the word "Woe" come up in the Bible or NT as the "day" of the Lord and therefore being about a manifestation?

I don't think they do. I think the only time they interpret a "Woe" as being a manifestation is this one time in Revelation 8:13. But it's mentioned several times in the New Testament.

This Greek word "ouai" is used 47 times in the New Testament: 41 times in 33 verses it is translated as "woe", and six times in three verses it is translated as "alas".​

​

Cherry-picking and creatively interpreting Bible and NT verses by Abdul Baha' is really troubling... since his writings carry a lot of authority in the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Sumadji]

But now I have a huge problem with how Abdul Baha' justifies interpreting the "Three Woes" as these three people they call "manifestations." He says it is "evident" that the "day" of woe is the day of the Lord based on some verse in Ezekiel.

Agreed. There's nothing to support the Baha'i interpretation except the fact that Abdul Baha says so. There are thousands of pages of various interpretations of Daniel, Revelations and Ezekiel down the ages, to support all sorts of groups and agendas. Erik Von Daniken quoted Ezekiel to support his 'Chariots of the Gods' space alien theories. Many now believe that Revelations is about the Roman emperor Nero, and that Daniel is about the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes. Both have a good historical and scholarly backing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Meek people who are LIVING will inherit the Earth, not meek DEAD people who came out of their graves.

Please keep in mind the dead of Matthew 27:52 is about 'exposed corpses' Not resurrected people
Jesus was Not resurrected the day he died but was in the grave - Acts 2:27
So, it was living people who were in the graveyard who came out after Jesus was resurrected - Matthew 27:53-54

Before Resurrection Day ( Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth for a thousand years ) the dead sleep
Resurrection is Future - Acts 24:15 - because ' there will be ' a resurrection......

Yes, the meek people, the living ' sheep' of Matthew 25:37 are alive people at Jesus' coming Glory Time - Matthew 25:31-34
The resurrected dead of Acts 24:15 ( righteous and unrighteous - KJV the just and unjust ) have an earthly resurrection
Only those classed as saints or holy ones have a heavenly resurrection - Luke 22:28-30; Rev. 20;6; 2:10; Daniel 7:18

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...............................................................................................................................................
This is central. Christ did not come to change the material world, but to uplift the lost and broken. He spoke to the heart of every individual. And He still does.

Just thought the ^ above ^ bears repeating . Jesus and his followers were politically neutral in world affairs

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, the meek people, the living ' sheep' of Matthew 25:37 are alive people at Jesus' coming Glory Time - Matthew 25:31-34
The resurrected dead of Acts 24:15 ( righteous and unrighteous - KJV the just and unjust ) have an earthly resurrection
Only those classed as saints or holy ones have a heavenly resurrection - Luke 22:28-30; Rev. 20;6; 2:10; Daniel 7:18

Not one of the verses you cited support your beliefs. They are not even related to what you are claiming.

What you believe about an earthly resurrection and a heavenly resurrection is a doctrine of your JW church, nothing more, nothing less.
That doctrine is not supported by the Bible in any way.

Meek people who are LIVING will inherit the Earth, not meek DEAD people who came out of their graves.

 

[CG Didymus]

The foundation is no doubt our heart. How willing are we to determine who is a true or false prophet, how just is our heart? I see this is the foundation of faith, it is the key to any search we subsequently take.

You know I agree that the heart is where it's at with religion... but for any religion... even ones that have the weirdest beliefs in the world. So again, I think that any religion, no matter what they believe, will work. If the people believe what it says is true.

Like the Baha'i Faith doesn't believe a lot of the beliefs and doctrines of the born-again Christians. Yet, some of those Christians can be so full of the love of who they believe God to be that it's all bubbly over. But, if the Baha'is are right, their beliefs in a Trinitarian God is false. But they feel the love and power of that God in their hearts. So, what's happening? That belief isn't real. It isn't true. But it doesn't matter. They believe it. And they feel it.

So, I'm sure many Baha'is feel the power and love of God and Baha'u'llah. And you swear it's real, and that your concept of God and manifestations are real. And to you, I believe it is real... or at least feels real. Just like those born-again Christians.

Sorry, but I get the feeling that lots of the beliefs in religion are just made up. And like a kind of placebo effect, when you believe it, it all becomes real.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Like the Baha'i Faith doesn't believe a lot of the beliefs and doctrines of the born-again Christians. Yet, some of those Christians can be so full of the love of who they believe God to be that it's all bubbly over. But, if the Baha'is are right, their beliefs in a Trinitarian God is false. But they feel the love and power of that God in their hearts. So, what's happening? That belief isn't real. It isn't true. But it doesn't matter. They believe it. And they feel it.

It also requires a level of humility and detachment. Baha'u'llah also warns how love can become a veil and how we reject God's guidance because our love is misplaced.

Spoiler: Story of misplaced love

There was once a lover, it is said, who had sighed for long years in separation from his beloved, and wasted in the fire of remoteness. From the rule of love, his breast was void of patience and his body weary of his spirit; he reckoned life without her as a mockery, and the world consumed him away. How many a day he found no respite from his longing; how many a night the pain of her kept him from sleep. His body was worn to a sigh, and his heart’s wound had turned him to a cry of sorrow. A thousand lives would he freely have given for one taste of the cup of her presence, and yet even this was not within his reach. The doctors knew no cure for him, and companions avoided his company; yea, physicians have no remedy for one sick of love, unless the favour of the beloved deliver him.

At last the tree of his longing yielded the fruit of despair, and the fire of his hope fell to ashes. Then one night he could bear life no more, and he left his house for the marketplace. On a sudden, a watchman followed after him. He broke into a run, with the watchman in swift pursuit; then other watchmen came together and barred every passage to the weary one. And that wretched one cried from his heart, and ran here and there, and moaned to himself, “Surely this watchman is ‘Izrá’íl, my angel of death, following so fast upon me, or he is a tyrant of men, prompted by hatred and malice.” His feet carried him on—that hapless one bleeding with the arrow of love—while his heart lamented. Then he came to a garden wall, and with untold pain and trouble he scaled it. He saw that it was very high; yet, forgetting his life, he threw himself down into the garden.

And there he beheld his beloved with a lamp in her hand, searching for a ring she had lost. When the heart-surrendered lover looked upon his ravishing love, he drew a great breath and lifted his hands in prayer, crying, “O God! Bestow honour upon the watchman, and riches and long life. For the watchman was Gabriel, guiding this poor one; or he was Isráfíl, bringing life to this wretched one!”

Indeed, his words were true; for he had found many a secret justice in this seeming tyranny of the watchman, and had seen how many a mercy lay hid behind the veil. In one stroke of wrath, the guard had joined one who was athirst in the desert of love to the sea of the beloved, and dispelled the darkness of separation with the shining light of reunion. He had led one who was afar to the garden of nearness, and guided an ailing soul to the heart’s physician.

Now if the lover could have seen the end, he would from the beginning have blessed the watchman, prayed God on his behalf, and seen his tyranny as justice; but since the end was veiled to him, he lamented and made his plaint in the beginning. Yet those who journey in the garden land of true knowledge, since they see the end in the beginning, behold peace in war and conciliation in enmity.

— The Call of the Divine Beloved

I was lucky in that I had no preconceived ideas of religion, apart from despising the frauds in religion. The Self proclaimed prophets after money, fame and self satisfaction.

I did not need to detach from beliefs like the Trinity. I read the Explanation of Baha’u’llah and it resonated with me, when I subsequently started to look at the doctrime of the trinity, I was able to see how it departed from what was offered by Jesus. I was also able to accept what the Quran offered way back in the AD600's. The Trinity did not need ro become a veil.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You know I agree that the heart is where it's at with religion... but for any religion... even ones that have the weirdest beliefs in the world. So again, I think that any religion, no matter what they believe, will work. If the people believe what it says is true.

Work for what?

Like the Baha'i Faith doesn't believe a lot of the beliefs and doctrines of the born-again Christians. Yet, some of those Christians can be so full of the love of who they believe God to be that it's all bubbly over. But, if the Baha'is are right, their beliefs in a Trinitarian God is false.
But they feel the love and power of that God in their hearts. So, what's happening? That belief isn't real. It isn't true. But it doesn't matter. They believe it. And they feel it.

Christians are full of the love of who they believe God to be and they are all bubbly over it.
They feel the love and power of Jesus in their hearts because they believe that Jesus is God, and they worship Jesus as God.

You don't think that matters? It matters a whole helluva lot if Jesus is not God.

Here are some reasons why it matters:

1. It matters because they are not worshiping the one true God, but rather worshiping Jesus as God, and Jesus said not to do that.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

2. It matters because with that kind of emotional attachment to Jesus it is impossible for them to recognize any other messenger of God.
Of course that means that they will never recognize Baha'u'llah.

3. It matters because it is their emotional attachment to Jesus that causes them to continue waiting for Jesus to return.

Christians waiting for Jesus to return and fix everything is the primary thing that is holding back the progress of humanity.

You don't think that matters?

So, I'm sure many Baha'is feel the power and love of God and Baha'u'llah. And you swear it's real, and that your concept of God and manifestations are real. And to you, I believe it is real... or at least feels real. Just like those born-again Christians.

So what? It does not matter what we feel. It only matters what is true.

Truth is the foundation of all virtues. (Abdu'l-Baha)

 

[Sumadji]

Meek people who are LIVING will inherit the Earth, not meek DEAD people who came out of their graves.

Not sure where you intend going with this? Surely the dead who are raised are no longer dead but restored to life, like Lazarus

Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Or are you referring to zombies like the sailors in The Ancient Mariner?

The dead men gave a groan.
They groaned, they stirred, they all uprose,
Nor spake, nor moved their eyes;
It had been strange, even in a dream,
To have seen those dead men rise.

The helmsman steered, the ship moved on;
Yet never a breeze up-blew;
The mariners all 'gan work the ropes,
Where they were wont to do;
They raised their limbs like lifeless tools—
We were a ghastly crew.

The former meaning is obviously the one intended in the Christian sense of resurrection?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no reasonable debate that can be had with people that interpret resurrection as a flesh occurrence. Best to leave them with that hope.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

There is no reasonable debate that can be had with people that interpret resurrection as a flesh occurrence. Best to leave them with that hope.

Regards Tony

Lazarus went on to live his life as a normal person until he died. That's how it's written. Make of it what you will. Nobody has to believe it, but that's the way it's written and intended.