The Return of Christ

[InvestigateTruth]

You can say THAT again!

@TransmutingSoul

Yes, you can say that again an again, even if you said it before, just as @Trailblazer tells them many times that Jesus is not going to come back ever.
Tell them till they get it into their thick head.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have discussed all this in great detail,

"Dealt" with it? Or glossed over it and ignored the questions. Just take one of the questions... either you or TB and tell me how the number or mark of the beast becomes the year 661AD? Considering that with the other prophecies about the 1260 days, the Baha'is switch to the Islamic calendar.

The related verses from Revelation...

12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.​

​

13:1The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast​

​

13:11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.​

​

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.​

​

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.​

​

So, who does Abdul Baha say is the dragon? Then... who does he say is this first beast? Then... who does he say is this second beast? And it is this beast, the second one, that is associated with the number or mark.

Can you show me his interpretations? Do you have them and know them? Or even some of the guesses made by Baha'is on who the dragon and beasts are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe it all boils down to a 100% faith issue.

No, I think it is faith and evidence.

As you said:

In the end, no Messenger of God has as much proof as the Bab and Baha'u'llah, they have truck loads compared to wheelbarrow loads for other Messengers.

If we reject the Prophecy fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, then we basically have rejected all the signs of the previous Messengers. No one can use prophecy to validate any Messenger.

I disagree, since I believe that prophecies can be used to validate Baha'ullah.
Isn't that what William Sears did?

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

 

[Trailblazer]

just as @Trailblazer tells them many times that Jesus is not going to come back ever.
Tell them till they get it into their thick head.

I do not think they will ever get it through their thick heads, but I will still continue to tell them over and over and over and over again.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Dealt" with it? Or glossed over it and ignored the questions. Just take one of the questions... either you or TB and tell me how the number or mark of the beast becomes the year 661AD? Considering that with the other prophecies about the 1260 days, the Baha'is switch to the Islamic calendar.

The related verses from Revelation...

12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.​

​

13:1The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast​

​

13:11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.​

​

15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.​

​

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.​

​

So, who does Abdul Baha say is the dragon? Then... who does he say is this first beast? Then... who does he say is this second beast? And it is this beast, the second one, that is associated with the number or mark.

Can you show me his interpretations? Do you have them and know them? Or even some of the guesses made by Baha'is on who the dragon and beasts are.

Is there a Baha'i interpretation of the whole Book of Revelation?

Answer: Yes, there are a number of books written by Baha’is over the past 30+ years. Arthur Gregory provided links to those texts. The most recent is by Able in Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation: John Able, 2011. It takes some of the prior texts and adds to them...

www.quora.com

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I disagree, since I believe that prophecies can be used to validate Baha'ullah.
Isn't that what William Sears did?

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

That was you agreeing to what I said.

I was saying that if a person rejects the Prophecy for Baha'u'llah, then no Prophecy can be used to prove any of the previous Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Dealt" with it? Or glossed over it and ignored the questions. Just take one of the questions... either you or TB and tell me how the number or mark of the beast becomes the year 661AD? Considering that with the other prophecies about the 1260 days, the Baha'is switch to the Islamic calendar.

CG It does not become AD661.

Abdu'l-Bahá has offered that 666 represents the beast that became Muslim Empire at that time and then demonstrated as to how each of those signs were applicable to Muhammad, Ali and Islam of that time.

Is there a Baha'i interpretation of the whole Book of Revelation?

Answer: Yes, there are a number of books written by Baha’is over the past 30+ years. Arthur Gregory provided links to those texts. The most recent is by Able in Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation: John Able, 2011. It takes some of the prior texts and adds to them...

www.quora.com

That is a good link.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

CG It does not become AD661.

Abdu'l-Bahá has offered that 666 represents the beast that became Muslim Empire at that time and then demonstrated as to how each of those signs were applicable to Muhammad, Ali and Islam of that time.

That is a good link.

Regards Tony

But, if the Umayyads are said to be the dragon or the first beast, they took power in 661AD, not 666AD. But the mark or number of the beast is about the second beast.

Yeah, about that link...

Apocalypse Secrets... " not considered remotely authoritative."

The Book of Revelation Revealed in Glory,.. "This is also not considered authoritative."

And I've read what Abdul Baha' said in "Some Answered Questions."

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, you can say that again an again, even if you said it before, just as @Trailblazer tells them many times that Jesus is not going to come back ever.
Tell them till they get it into their thick head.

"Blind"? "Thick head"? Yes, whatever a Baha'i says should be believed without question.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Blind"? "Thick head"? Yes, whatever a Baha'i says should be believed without question.

Sign of the times CG. We are all getting frustrated that people are not able to give up war and find the unity of humanity. It's not really all that hard, after all we now live in the promised "Day of God", the vast majority of the world awaits this day, in one way or another. God has given the solution.

The only reason we cannot all do this, is our own self interests.

It is not the Baha'i that one needs to consider without question, we can get many things wrong, what Baha'u'llah offered needs to be prayerfully considered, it is between the beleiver and God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Blind"? "Thick head"? Yes, whatever a Baha'i says should be believed without question.

We are all friends that have repetitive debates year after year, so it is with friends.

Great thing is, it is just the word used.

Could be you will be beating yourself when the truth eventually becomes known, either you or me, or both.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

"Blind"? "Thick head"? Yes, whatever a Baha'i says should be believed without question.

No, whatever the Bible says should be believed without question.

 

[Sumadji]

No, whatever the Bible says should be believed without question.

Seems to me the Baha'i take whatever parts of the Bible that can be interpreted to mean what they want them to mean and reject whatever does not suit them. Like countless others down the ages.

What about the Quran? Do Baha'i believe whatever the Quran says without question?

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems to me the Baha'i take whatever parts of the Bible that can be interpreted to mean what they want them to mean and reject whatever does not suit them. Like countless others down the ages.

When I said "No, whatever the Bible says should be believed without question" I was being facetious.
The Bible is fraught with errors and contradictions.

Seems to me the Christians take whatever parts of the Bible that can be interpreted to mean what they want them to mean and reject whatever does not suit them.

What about the Quran? Do Baha'i believe whatever the Quran says without question?

Baha'is believe that the Qur'an is much more reliable than the Bible.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

www.bahai-library.com

 

[Sumadji]

The Bible is fraught with errors and contradictions.

Undoubtedly. Therefore how do you decide what parts to accept at face value, what parts to 'interpret' and what parts to reject? For instance I believe Baha'i do accept the virgin birth, but not the literal resurrection? These are Islamic beliefs. Obviously Christians do not accept the authority of the Quran over the NT.

Is it not simply that you choose to accept the judgement of Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha and Shogi Effendi without question? On the interpretation of Revelations, for instance?

Or that Jesus was talking about Baha'u'llah when he promised the Holy Spirit to his disciples in
John 14:25: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

Jesus was talking to his close disciples just before his death. Christians regard it as highly unlikely that he was telling them about Baha'u'llah 2000 years in the future.

Why should Christians accept the authority of Baha'u'lla's interpretation, or support the Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ? There are countless interpretations of various Bible passages, made to suit the agendas of all sorts of groups. Especially when it comes to Daniel and Revelations.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

To me the logic follows: Created, as born and become transformed and reborn, become again as transfigured.
The New Adam is The Christ, the new spirit and new life in all mankind. The Holy Spirit in the soul of the Incorruptible Body of God, together as Jesus, opens the Gates, from the cross for the new birth. The blood and water flows in the birth of the new life and spirit, The "First" Christ into Heaven transforming and transfiguring all mankind who follow the pattern becoming the image of The Father.

The New Body for all becomes from the Incorruptible and immortal Holy Spirit Will of the Creator, God through the transformed immortal and incorruptible Body, spirit and life, in the soul of all beings from The Christ for the souls in the Body of God becoming again glorified and transfigured into the image of the Father for all as One.

From created, born of spirit and water as mortal and corrupt, we become baptized and born of new spirit and life and transformed immortal and incorruptible and confirmed sanctified in sacrifice and penance and absolved of imperfections we are born by new spirit and new life becoming again glorified and transfigured into His image as one in being.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[Trailblazer]

Undoubtedly. Therefore how do you decide what parts to accept at face value, what parts to 'interpret' and what parts to reject? For instance I believe Baha'i do accept the virgin birth, but not the literal resurrection? These are Islamic beliefs. Obviously Christians do not accept the authority of the Quran over the NT.

Is it not simply that you choose to accept the judgement of Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha and Shogi Effendi without question? On the interpretation of Revelations, for instance?

Yes, if Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha or Shogi Effendi weighed in on any Bible verses Baha'is accept their judgement.
None of them interpreted the Book of Revelations, so we have to use our own judgment if we interpret that.

Or that Jesus was talking about Baha'u'llah when he promised the Holy Spirit to his disciples in
John 14:25: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

Jesus was talking to his close disciples just before his death. Christians regard it as highly unlikely that he was telling them about Baha'u'llah 2000 years in the future.

I do not believe that Jesus was talking about Baha'u'llah when he promised the Holy Spirit to his disciples in John 14:25...
Jesus was talking about the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father would send in His name, but He did not designate who that Holy Spirit would be sent...

In retrospect, because of what Baha'u'llah wrote, Baha'is know that Baha'u'llah was Comforter, so He was the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father was going to send mentioned in John, chapters 14, 15, and 16.

“O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break.

Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. 2 Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight.”
(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 63-64)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 54-67

“The followers of the Gospel, likewise, hold as impossible that the Bearer of a new Revelation should again shine forth from the dayspring of the Will of God after Jesus, Son of Mary—peace be upon Him! In support of this contention, they adduce the following verse from the Gospel: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the words of the Son of Man shall never pass away." 25 They maintain that neither the teachings nor the commandments of Jesus—peace be upon Him!—may ever be altered.

At one point in the Gospel, He saith: "I go away, and come again." 26 Again in the Gospel of John, He hath foretold the advent of a Comforter who shall come after Him. 27 In the Gospel of Luke, moreover, a number of signs and portents have been mentioned. Certain divines of that Faith, however, have interpreted these utterances after their own fancy, and have thus failed to grasp their true significance.”
(The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p 125)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 96-138

Why should Christians accept the authority of Baha'u'lla's interpretation, or support the Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ? There are countless interpretations of various Bible passages, made to suit the agendas of all sorts of groups. Especially when it comes to Daniel and Revelations.

I am not saying that Christians should accept the authority of Baha'u'llah's interpretation, or support the Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah is the returned Christ. It is their choice if they want to investigate His claims or not. Not many Christians are going to accept it and the main reason is because they are still waiting for the same man Jesus to return to earth. In the future I think this will change but the future is not here yet.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 183-184

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The flesh dies, that is a God given process and scientific fact. To interpret the Bible in a way that flesh will live forever goes against God and Science.
John 6:63 ".. The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”....."
This life is to be born again, born into the Spirit that will dominate the desires of the flesh, the Bible is full of such verses.
This is God's Kingdom, our Rational Mind born Into the Spirit. Then we pick up the cross and sacrifice the flesh in service to humanity.
Physical death is not able to overtake the Spirit born into Christ, death of the Spirit is the dead burying the dead.
NDE and dream experiences are are great gift for us to know we exist without the flesh.
Regards Tony

Remember the 'sheep' of Matthew 25:37 and Not the same as Jesus' spiritual 'brothers of Matthew 25:40
No one was offered Heaven before Jesus died (John 3:13) No one named in Hebrews chapter 11 is alive but still in the grave
God's kingdom, like men's kingdoms is a government. God's kingdom ( thy kingdom come aka God's government come...... )
Come where, but come to govern over Earth as it is done in Heaven.....
So, besides a heavenly hope there is an earthly hope for the meek people who will inherit, Not Heaven, but inherit the Earth
The earthly realm of God's kingdom government
Not everyone is part of the first or earlier resurrection found at Revelation 20:6
Those who are part of that first or earlier resurrection serve in Heaven with Christ as kings and priests over Earth - Rev. 5:9-10
Kings take care of government duties and priests take care of spiritual duties. Those duties are Not needed in Heaven but on Earth

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well of course Jesus won’t come back in the flesh, that part of His life is done.
He is God so I imagine it will be some glorious form.

Agree that Jesus' return will Not be physical but with angelic armies - Rev. 19:14-15
Yes, agree some glorious form - Matt. 25:31 - but since God can Not fit on Earth - 1st Kings 27,49 - He will Not be here
God looks down from Heaven - Psalm 33:13-14 - and sent pre-human heavenly Jesus, His Son, to Earth - Luke 1:32
This is a reason why we are invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ( return ) at Revelation 22:20

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.............................The ascended Christ is able to manifest a flesh body, as the resurrected Jesus by choice manifested in the flesh to his disciples

'Flesh.....' ( physical ) does Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Corinthians 15:50
Before Jesus ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9) Jesus used different materialized bodies to appear to his disciples - Luke 24:13-43
Since 'flesh' (physical) does Not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, then Jesus' return will Not be in the flesh at his glory time - Matt. 25:31