I ask what's the point, they all die again.
There is no reasonable debate that can be had with people that interpret resurrection as a flesh occurrence. Best to leave them with that hope.
Regards Tony
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The Return of Christ
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
There is no reasonable debate that can be had with people that interpret resurrection as a flesh occurrence. Best to leave them with that hope.
Regards Tony
Well after the final resurrection and judgement of the dead on the last day they do not die again in both Christian and Islamic belief. Only extreme literalists would insist that it has to be a resurrection of the flesh, although the Catholic church at one time did not allow cremation for that reason.
In the case of Christ raising Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus would go on to die later, until the final resurrection.
But the issue is that reading the whole Lazarus passage makes it clear that Christ raised Lazarus in the flesh and was not just figuratively. The NT account does not allow the Baha’i interpretation.
Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”
When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met Him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”
Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?”
They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”
Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:1-44
When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”
Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him.”
So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met Him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”
Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”
Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?”
They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”
Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”
And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”
Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.”
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
John 11:1-44
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that any dead people are ever raised from the grave and restored to physical life.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I believe that verse above refers to people who will be are raised from the graves of ignorance of Christ, so they will be raised spiritually, raised from spiritual death to spiritual life.
What happened to Lazarus? No one really knows, but we know he died again.
So what point is the story if you do not see the spiritual significance?
We could do this does years, there is no point if you do think the flesh will rise again.
Romans 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin"
So it is our Mind/Spirit that brings us to the Law, not the flesh, our aim is to become one in the Spirit of Christ, not into the flesh of Jesus.
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
We must be born again, from the flesh into the Spirit.
John3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Otherwise we are the dead burning the dead.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, strange to hear Baha'is quote John or Paul or any of the other NT writers. These men were not the "manifestation". You Baha'is don't believe what they wrote is the infallible word of God.
However, it seems obvious that poor old Lazarus was physically dead. And, in the story, Jesus comes in and brings him back to life. That story has great meaning to Bible-believing Christians. And it probably had great meaning to people 2000 years ago. But instead of trying to pretend it was only being symbolic, why not just go with it being nothing but a made-up story to get people to think Jesus was a God/man?
I think it's only because Baha'i want to be able to say that they believe in the Bible and the NT... just not literally. That Baha'is are so wise and spiritual that they see the hidden "symbolic" meanings in all these stories. Baha'is seem to be thinking that... "If only Christians could not be so blind to the truth. Why can't they see that these stories were never meant to be taken literally?"
For me, I think there's a good chance both Christians and Baha'is are blind. The stories aren't literal and they aren't symbolic. They are just plain old religion myth. But I do believe the more powerful message in these stories is if they are believed to to true... That their God is so powerful the he could raise a person from the dead.
But that message, the literal one, just doesn't work in the Baha'i scheme of things. They have no need for a dying and rising Savior that could bring a dead person back to life. Now bringing a "spiritually" dead person into "spiritual" life, that's something they can get behind. But does it makes sense in the context of the story?
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
Remarkably, Baha'is can make this about them. They take the 2300 evenings and mornings and make it 2300 years. They subtract 457 from that, which is the year one of the decrees to rebuild Jerusalem went out, and, adding the year zero to it, they get 1844 out of that. The year the Bab declared himself.Problem is... What does the abomination of desolation have to do with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? But that's of little concern to Baha'is. What's important to them is that it comes out to 1844, therefore that is the correct interpretation. And how can anyone argue with that?
Daniel is interesting. There are definitely questions about the later origin. The only real smoking gun for the late origin is the accuracy of the prophecies about Antiochus Epiphanus in Daniel 11
The reasoning is that because the prophecies are so accurate, they had to have been written after the fact, during the time of the Macabees. Of course this fails if Daniel really was the prophet he claims to be.
I've an open mind about it. Daniel was popular at Qumran, within only 50 years after the supposed late writing of the Book of Daniel, which would seem much too soon for him to have achieved such a high status amongst the Jews. He used Persian words that had fallen out of use by the time of the Macabees, and so were wrongly translated into Greek. He was correct about the existence of Balthazzar, even that the Babylonians were feasting and carousing when Cyrus took the city, and also about the rebuilding of Babylon by Nebuchadnezzer, all of which which have only recently come to light, according to the article below.
The article linked is lifted at random from the internet and is from a Christian perspective. It takes a few leaps, but seems to be quite a thorough commentary:
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There was No heavenly resurrection before Jesus died - John 3:13, even King David is still sleeping - Acts 2:34; Acts 13:36
King David will Not be King when he is resurrected on the last day - John 6:40,44
Rather, according to Ezekiel 34:23-24 David will be a Prince. A Prince to govern with judgement - Isaiah 32
'There will be princes' - notice where located according to Psalm 45:16 B ________
Until Lazarus died again - John 12:1,10 - The chief priests wanted to get rid of the resurrected evidence: aka Lazarus
Because they got rid of resurrected Lazarus is a good reason why there is No mention of Lazarus when Jesus was executed
Lazarus will again be back on the Last Day ( Resurrection Day / Jesus' Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth ) - John 6:40,44
However, the chief priests did Not like the physical evidence of a resurrected person
Their solution: Get rid of the living evidence aka the resurrected Lazarus and they did - See John 12:10-11
Thus, Lazarus died a second time before Jesus died. No mention of Lazarus at Jesus' execution
Yes, meek people who are LIVING will inherit the Earth starting with Jesus' coming Glory Time - Matthew 25:37; Psalm 37: 9-11
The dead are resurrected on the Last Day - John 6:40,44 - Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years
Heavenly resurrection is for the 'saints/ holy ones' like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 they have first resurrection - Rev. 20:6
Those judged as 'righteous and unrighteous' (Acts 24:15 - JKV just and unjust ) are the ones who can have an earthly resurrection
They will have the same opportunity as originally offered to Adam before his downfall to live forever on Earth. everlasting life on Earth
- www.jw.org
Yes, the world was looking for a political Messiah, they even wanted to make Jesus as their political King - John 6:15
How 'every heart' responds to Jesus' words can determine the difference at the coming separating time of Matthew 25:31-34,37,40
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You state all these things as if they were facts but none of what you presented is factual...
All you have are beliefs, beliefs you have from interpreting certain Bible verses and listening to the JW organization.
I believe that what you believe about the resurrection and the afterlife is patently false, and the Bible verses you cite do not support your beliefs in any manner, shape, or form.
I am not going to argue with you because you are like a stone wall with a built-in tape recorder. There can be no discussion or debate with a tape recorder.
Zoroaster taught about the resurrection of the soul. (Note it mentions 3 nights)
(Hādokht Nask, Yt. 22, Ch.II.1,2,7-10,11~)
Zarathushtra asked Ahura Mazda: O Ahura Mazda, the Beneficent Spirit, the holy Creator of the corporeal world! When a righteous person dies, where does his soul dwell during that night?” Then, Ahura Mazda replied: “The soul sits near the head (of the corpse), singing the Ushtavad Gāthā, asking for happiness for itself (thus): Happiness (comes) to him who seeks happiness for others.” May Ahura Mazda who rules according to His will, grant that desire. On that night, the soul desires as much joy as that which the whole living world can see…
At the end of the third night, at dawn, the soul of the righteous person goes forward, being carried among trees and perfumes. A wind blows towards him from the direction of the south. A sweet-scented (wind), more sweet-scented than any other wind, (blows) from southern direction.
Then, the soul of the righteous person goes forward receiving the (sweet-scented) wind in his nose. (It asks “Whence blows this wind which is the most sweet-scented I have ever inhaled in my nose?” It appears to him, as if in that (wind) comes his own Daenā (conscience) in the form of a maiden, handsome, beautiful, white armed, brave, well-formed, tall with large well-formed breasts, well-born, of noble-descent, of fifteen years of age, as beautiful in the growth of her body as the most beautiful object in creation.
Then the soul of the righteous person speaks and asks her (the maiden): “What maiden art thou, who art the fairest of the maidens I have ever seen?”
Then his own Daenā replies to the soul: “O young man! I am (the picture of) thy good thoughts, good words, good deeds, thy good Daenā, the Daenā of thy own body. Thou hast made me lovelier, more beautiful, and more desirable."
More QUOTES from Zoroastrian texts
Regards Tony
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
The most authentic text is The Gathas. It is the most directly attributable to Zarathustra or Zoroaster as he is called in the West. I learned that when I took the Wilmette Institute course on Zoroastrianism. When Alexander the Great conquered Persia, most of the Zoroastrian texts were destroyed.
I find No afterlife teaching ( meaning more alive after death than before death ) in the Bible
I find Jesus taught, Not afterlife, but Jesus taught resurrection - John 6:40,44 (Acts 24:15)
Resurrection: being restored back to life on Resurrection Day (Jesus' coming 1000 year day governing over Earth from Heaven)
Isn't 'sleep in death' supported by: Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 and John 11:11-14; 43-44 ________________
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The resurrection is the afterlife.
It is what will happen after our life in this world has ended, when we will pass from this world into the next world and continue to live.
421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. (Heaven and Hell, p. 351)
Adam was created to be a living soul - Genesis 2:7
At death Adam because a dead soul, a life-less soul - Genesis 2:17; 3:19
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life because: the soul that sins dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20
A person can Not return to a place he never was before ( so, from Earth and returning back to Earth )
Since we are innocent of what fallen-father Adam did is why we can have a resurrection ( be restored back to live life again )
( Note in the Bible it mentions 3 )
1) An earlier resurrection first for the saints/holy ones as found at Revelation 20:6; Daniel 7:18
2) A later resurrection for the rest of the dead who are judged as righteous and unrighteous - Acts 24:15 ( just and unjust KJV)
3) Those alive at Jesus' coming Glory Time won't need a resurrection because they can remain alive on Earth - Matt. 25:31-34,37
( as for the wicked they simply will be 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22; Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 )
cataway
Well-Known Member
what you are really saying is you dont like what John 5:28-29 says so you excuse it i favor of what you want to believe
Yes, most people believe they are immortal and will be conscious at death to live on into the next world
Jesus, on the other hand, taught Not passing on from this world to another world but being dead asleep - John 6:40,44
No returning to life at death, but 'sleep' in death ( Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 38:18; Psalm 115:17 besides John 11:11-14 )
Dead people sleep, or as Acts 24:15 uses the 'future tense' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......... ( for the just & unjust KJV )
Jesus taught about a coming future resurrection day for the dead, Jesus did Not teach being alive at death ( No afterliving on the day you die )
There would be No need for a resurrection for the dead if the dead are Not dead.