Tinkerpeach
Active Member
I’m pretty sure everyone will know who He is regardless of what name you call Him.
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The Return of Christ
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
I'm interested to know how you interpret the second part of this phrase: "but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also."
To me it means that although Jesus is no longer visible to 'the world' He is still present in Spirit.
"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Matthew 18:20
I'm sure there are other similar New Testament passages affirming the (spiritual) presence of Christ?
That is the way I would see it as well.
Living is being born again in the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit is always with us, we have to be open to it.
Regards Tony
Do you mean actually present, or only through the scriptures?
It is always present, we exist because of our interactions with the Spirit.
Regards Tony
Christ promises to be personally present. He refers to Himself as "I"
Tinkerpeach
Active Member
You also.
MelancholicPotatoChip
Member
What is your view on slavery in the Bible? Are you for or against slavery?Introduction
Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.
Conclusion
The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.
Bahá'í Library Online
Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materialsbahai-library.com
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Slavery had its place in ancient times. When there was war and conquest, after the stronger cultures won, the question became what do you do with all the survivors, who may not be your best fans going forward? You can kill them all and be done with it. Or you can support them, like guests, which get too expensive. Or something in the middle that is more merciful than death, but not as expensive as perpetual guests. That is called slavery. This keeps the survivors busy, but unable to rebel. It helps the host nation to prosper, and gives the lessor culture time to assimilate the more advanced ways of the host nation, so both can grow together. In the Bible, there are certain rules for treating slaves with dignity. After the next war, you could be the slaves. It is up to the gods.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You have gotten yourself tangled up with how Baha'i view the Bible and the NT and how you, I assume, a Christian views them.
Obviously, you view them very differently. I personally don't agree with some of the things that either side believes.
They interpret Revelation very different than Christians. Since their prophet had a different name, names becomes very important. They believe their prophet is the return of "Christ"... or the Messiah. And that in Revelation he will come with a new name. For me, that's their strongest claim.
I think this stuff that they will see him no more is very weak. I have never seen that claimed by any of the main Baha'i leaders. It very possibly could have been invented by TB.
But why would a Baha'i play the "literal" game with the Bible and the NT when they don't take them literally? They go out of their way to find some symbolic interpretation on most all verses. But if they want to play that game then in Matthew it says...
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains...
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
I don't know how Baha'i will try and interpret those verses, but to me it sure sounds like as long as there are wars, this Son of Man person will not come yet.So, who is going to win that battle of throwing verses at each other? No one, because it's too easy to find verses that contradict what the other person throws out there.
This is based on a very weak Baha'i interpretation of some verses in Revelation. I say they are weak, because they are very much taken out of context. One of them is that they claim the "Two Witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali. The other is the "Three Woes" that they claim are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
I've argued with Baha'is here for years about Revelation. I think it is clear, the main character is this "Lamb" or the "Lamb that was slain". They don't even try to make Baha'u'llah the Lamb. The best they come up with is to say his forerunner the Bab was the "Lamb that was slain" because he was shot by a firing squad. But, to me, the "Lamb" sure sounds like Jesus.
The key here is that Baha'is can't have Jesus being the one that comes back. His body has to be dead and gone and the "flesh" mean nothing. So much so that they say that Jesus did not physically come back to life, but that the resurrection was not a physical resurrection but only spiritual. That the spirit of Jesus rose and his body rotted away.
Yes, for TB and now Tony, it has to be strictly literal. He's gone and never, ever coming back. But in the Gospel of John, not long after those verses about him never coming back, he comes back. In the Gospels it has Jesus eating with them, talking with them and having one of them touch his wounds. And Jesus says that he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone.
If we want to take verses literal, then the Baha'is lose on this one. Plus, in Acts it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive by many proofs.
Now as far as being a more practical religion than Christianity, and a religion that fits modern times much better, the Baha'i Faith is worth looking into. But where they shoot themselves in the foot is when they try and reconcile all the major religions as being one and from one God.
How they gonna prove that? All the religions are different. And Christianity is very different than all of them. To make Christianity fit into their beliefs they, not only have to do away with a physical resurrection but also the whole concept of "salvation". Christians needs sin, Satan, Adam's fall, hell, demons and false religions and false gods. None of those things that Christianity believes in are supported by Baha'i beliefs.
In Christianity, Jesus has to be the one and only way. For Baha'is, Jesus has to be only one of the many ways. The two religions are very different. But the Baha'i Faith has an interpretation of the Bible and the NT that, for them, makes it all fit together. And they can make all the major religions fit into their beliefs. Which I think is a good thing.... if it's true. And they, of course, think it is.
As an offshoot of Shia Islam Baha'i believe that the Quran updates and informs the New Testament. The Quran rejects the resurrection and 'salvation' -- in the opinion of most Muslims.
Baha'i require Christians to accept the authority of the Quran
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The logical observation is that the Holy Spirit is with us now, so we can ask ourselves, where is the flesh "I" of Jesus? All the Messengers promised they are with us always.
Regards Tony
Those replies are based on God given authorised Baha'i Wrirings and there is no stronger foundations and never has been any stronger foundation.
Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures
Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of the Revelation of John
Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
Commentary on the Twelfth Chapter of the Revelation of John
The Explanations given by Abdul'baha offers that there are also other truths that can be found in those same passages, it is our own blindness that prevents us from seeing these truths.
We can all benefit from all these talks given by Abdul'baha, as there are many subjects covered that will assist us in understanding the "Return". The Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah is the best of choices to read.
The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library
A treatise revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Baghdad in 1861/62 in response to questions posed by one of the maternal uncles of the Báb, translated by Shoghi Effendi and first published in English in 1931.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yeah, I can see that. It is much more of an offshoot of Shia Islam than any sect of Christianity. But, because they claim that all religions are true, they have to find a way to make the Bible and the NT fit into their beliefs. Making things symbolic, and not literal, is a pretty good way to try and do that. But, by the time they are done, there isn't much left of traditional Christian beliefs.
And the most important one, that Jesus is the one and only way to get ones sins forgiven, becomes not necessary. For Baha'is, people aren't hopelessly lost sinners that have some original or inherited sin from Adam. And without the Christian hell, they aren't "saved" from an eternity in hell anyway... Baha'is have totally different beliefs.
And, since the NT wasn't written by Jesus, why do Baha'is even bother with the NT? They know it was written by the followers of Jesus. And they know that the gospel writers contradict themselves.
And I've asked them about one of those contradictions... the birth story. Luke and Matthew tell it differently. But then the Quran tells it differently from them and has Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date palm. So, what do Baha'is do? I would think they'd have to agree with the story in the Quran. Just like they do with the Ishmael vs. Isaac story.
I do think the Baha'i Faith has a lot going for it, but trying to tie in all the religions into their beliefs, isn't one of them.
Is the Holy Spirit personally present to me in the same room, as Jesus promised?
The ascended Christ is able to manifest a flesh body, as the resurrected Jesus by choice manifested in the flesh to his disciples
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It is the core Message of Baha’u’llah that God is One, that the Messengers are One in God and that all the God given religions are One.
It resonates with those that embrace the oneness of humanity and are wanting to build a global community where all peoples have a fair and just chance of a peaceful fulfilling life.
There is no other path to lasting peace, that does not include the oneness of humanity. Humanity will continue to suffer in its ignorance, unless and until it starts to build bridge to that oneness.
Regards Tony
The Holy Spirit appears as the sun appears in a mirror, if we have polished the mirror of our heart we can reflect the rays that shine from Christ.
If we have dross on our heart, we will not reflect what shone from Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is not a person to be personally present.
Regards Tony
I see the Holy Spirit as the rays of the sun that is not restricted to a flesh body.
This talk about the Holy Spirit is what I build my thoughts on.
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
Regards Tony
The Holy Spirit does not have to be a person to be personally present for me, as an advisor and comforter. Jesus didn't offer mirrors. He promised to be personally present