The Return of Christ

[Trailblazer]

Fair enough. Thank you for responding.

You're welcome.

But then why employ the 'not peace but a sword' passage at all?

I don't really know since I am no Bible expert.

Didn't Baha'u'llah excommunicate members of his own family?

Certain members of his own family were not allowed to continue being members of the Baha'i Faith because they were Covenant-breakers.

Definition

Covenant-breaking does not refer to attacks from non-Bahá'ís or former Baha'is. Rather, it is in reference to internal campaigns of opposition where the Covenant-breaker is seen as challenging the unity of the Bahá'í Faith, causing internal division, or by claiming or supporting an alternate succession of authority or administrative structure. The central purpose of the covenant is to prevent schism and dissension.[1] In a letter to an individual dated 23 March 1975, the Universal House of Justice wrote:

When a person declares his acceptance of Bahá'u'lláh as a Manifestation of God he becomes a party to the Covenant and accepts the totality of His Revelation. If he then turns round and attacks Bahá'u'lláh or the Central Institution of the Faith he violates the Covenant. If this happens every effort is made to help that person to see the illogicality and error of his actions, but if he persists he must, in accordance with the instructions of Bahá'u'lláh Himself, be shunned as a Covenant-breaker.

Covenant-breaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sumadji]

But then why employ the 'not peace but a sword' passage at all

I don't really know since I am no Bible expert

I'm trying to process this response ...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

because there is no evidence of the bible being the word of god nor is there any evidence of said god.

What would be evidence for you _____________________________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not think that the Bible is proof of God. There is no proof of God.
I only said that the Bible can be considered evidence for God, but only in a particular sense.
Evidence is not the same as proof.
evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Google
evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:
.....................................................................................................
Note that evidence does only indicates or helps to prove whether a belief is true. It does not prove anything.
By contrast, proof establishes a fact. There is no proof that God exists or that any religion if true. There is only evidence that indicates that.
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: Google

Seems that Jesus' evidence (or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or truth of a statement) was his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus taught that Scripture is: religious truth
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " It is written...." meaning already written down in the OT
Because the Bible is chock full of corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages it is easy to travel to and fro throughout the pages of the Bible by taking one subject or topic arrangement at a time.
Over the many centuries the Bible has many enemies from both without and within and No one can get rid of the Bible or stop the spreading of the Bible on an international scale, nor stop Bible people.
Who do you know that has never heard of the Bible __________ just as Matthew 24:14 says the gospel would be declared world wide
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so now people even in remote areas can have access to Scripture
What other Book is translated into more languages ___________

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Is that right? You want to live forever on earth?
You're welcome to it !

Adam was welcome to it ( forever on earth )
Not an earth were sickness exists but good health on earth as mentioned at Isaiah 35:5-6
Do you want to pick the day you want to die _______
Do healthy people normally choose the day they want to die or rather seek medical help so as not to die

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you want to pick the day you want to die _______

It's not for me to do so.
If suicide were honorable (which it is not), I would choose to die sooner rather than later.

I hurt .. personally, and also feel the hurt of the oppressed generally.
I do not laugh much .. I don't find current events amusing.

I do not believe in an "eternal earth" .. I do not believe in a literal 6-day creation.
I believe a time will come when hardly a believer will be left on earth, as people will
become complacent and faith will decrease. The planet is finite .. Noah's Ark will not
happen again.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The separation has been taking place since Christ returned, but almost all Christians missed the boat.
There is nothing to wait for, but Christians will continue to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...
They will wait till hell freezes over for Jesus to return to Earth, a Jesus who said He was No More in the world and the world would see Him No More.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
No more means no further, never again. It does not mean Coming Back.

Right, in that there would be 'No physical return', but Jesus will return - Luke 19:11-15
As we don't see the angels but we can see with the mind's eye of understanding what is going on around us
Isaiah and Revelation speaks of Jesus' coming with angelic (invisible) armies
Thus, it will be the 'words' spoken from Jesus' mouth that will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

Yes, 'many have missed and will miss the boat '- Matthew 7:21-23 - many wear those figurative rose-colored glasses
Even wrong expectations does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the expectation as wrong or premature
Be Alert ! because when the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security...." (1st Thess. 5:2-3) that Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path Not to peace and safety but that Rosy saying is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's not for me to do so.
If suicide were honorable (which it is not), I would choose to die sooner rather than later.
I hurt .. personally, and also feel the hurt of the oppressed generally.
I do not laugh much .. I don't find current events amusing.
I do not believe in an "eternal earth" .. I do not believe in a literal 6-day creation.
I believe a time will come when hardly a believer will be left on earth, as people will
become complacent and faith will decrease. The planet is finite .. Noah's Ark will not
happen again.

You're not alone in your thinking. These last days of badness - 2nd Timothy 3:1-5,13 - gives plenty of reason to feel hurt and good reason Not to find current events amusing and certainly No reason to laugh
I think it was Hemingway who said we all end up broken
Side note: In Scripture the word 'day' has shades of meaning: All of the creative days are summed up by the single word day ( Gen. 2:4 )
So, just as in English we speak of grandfather's day we know that is Not a 24 hour day
Thus, there is No reason to think of a literal 6-24-hour day creation, but in Scripture each creative day is of unknown lengths of time
Yes, as there was few left in Noah's Day or time frame, there will be few - Jesus said MANY prove false to him - Matt. 7:21-23
Yes, people's faith is 'drying up spiritually speaking'. That does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the people as wrong
Yes, Noah's Ark will Not happen again. Seeing the Rainbow is a promise about that - Genesis 9:12-16
Since the planet is Not at fault, then it is the ones who are at fault that will be removed - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Lesser Peace is yet to arrive, it will arise from the ruins of the wars now raging, which, if I read the Writings correctly, will coincide with an unforeseen calamity.
It appears the time foretold of the destruction of the world, is fast approaching...................................................................

2nd Thessalonians 2:2-8 does speak of the powers in charge who will be saying, " Peace and Security....." but that Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path Not to peace but rather the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14
House cleaning ( spiritual house cleaning ) will start with the House of God - 1st Peter 2:5,9
Those who falsely profess to believe will be the first noticed before the rest of the religious world is attacked
So, it is the destruction Not of Earth nor righteous mankind but the world of badness that will be gone
It is the wicked who will be 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7; 104:35; 145:20; Proverbs 2:22
Then, the righteous or meek ones will inherit the Earth as promised by Jesus at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The whole passage here:
Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matt 10:34-39 Read whole chapter
He was realistic and truthful. He did not make empty promises of peace on earth, imo

Remember Jesus said his followers would be hated - Matt. 10:22; 24:9
Not an empty promise as found at Matthew 5:5 but a full promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26
So, before Jesus' Glory Time comes (Matt. 25:31-34,37,40) we will Not have real Peace on Earth - Rev. 7:14; Psalm 46:9
What will bring peace is the 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' that will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

 

[RR144]

Jehovah's Witnesses are non-trinitarian, and there are millions of them around the world (Jehovah's Witnesses by country).

This is in addition to the millions of other non-trinitarian Christians who belong to various denominations worldwide (Nontrinitarian denominations).

Given this information, I wouldn't classify non-trinitarian Christians as "few."

I agree, but those groups classified on that Wikipedia link have their differences in regards the nature of God.

Some believe in one God, who has manifested himself in 3 different ways. He was Yahweh in the Old Testament, Jesus in the New Testament, and the Comforter (holy Spirit) during this Gospel Age.

Others like what use to be the Worldwide Church of God (followers of Herbert Armstrong) believe in a Binity. That is Yahweh and Jesus are the Godhead and the Spirit is a force.

Christadelphians believe that Jesus did not pre-exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Adam was welcome to it ( forever on earth )

Please cite the Bible verses that actually SAY that, not Bible verses that you believe mean that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right, in that there would be 'No physical return', but Jesus will return - Luke 19:11-15

None of the verses below are about Jesus returning to Earth in the latter days. They are about Jesus returning from having done something during His lifetime on Earth 2000 years ago.

Luke 19
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

As we don't see the angels but we can see with the mind's eye of understanding what is going on around us
Isaiah and Revelation speaks of Jesus' coming with angelic (invisible) armies

Isaiah and Revelation speaks of the return of Christ/coming of the messiah of the latter days, but that was not and never will be Jesus, since Jesus never promised to return to Earth. Jesus said His work was finished here and he was NO MORE in the world.
(John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

I believe the return of Christ/messiah of the latter days was Baha'u'llah.

Thus, it will be the 'words' spoken from Jesus' mouth that will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

Thus, it will be the 'words' spoken from Baha'u'llah's mouth will eventually rid the Earth of wickedness.

Yes, 'many have missed and will miss the boat '- Matthew 7:21-23 - many wear those figurative rose-colored glasses

Yes, 'many have missed and will miss the boat' because they are waiting for Jesus to return and He ain't coming back.

Even wrong expectations does Not make the Bible as wrong, just the expectation as wrong or premature

That's correct. The Bible clearly delineated who would come and it ain't Jesus.

 

[Sumadji]

What will bring peace is the 'sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth' that will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15

I don't believe the 'not peace but a sword' passage can ever be used to imply that Jesus supported violence. The passage is often used to position Jesus as advocating violence. The 'sword' to me means the choice between 'God and mammon' and the division caused to families and relationships by choosing the spirit over the world.

In Luke 2:35 where Simeon tells Mary that "a sword will pierce through your own soul also" the sword does not have a literal meaning. I'm sure there are many passages in the New Testament where the sword does not have a literal meaning?

It's not for me to do so.
If suicide were honorable (which it is not), I would choose to die sooner rather than later.

I hurt .. personally, and also feel the hurt of the oppressed generally.
I do not laugh much .. I don't find current events amusing.

Hang in there brother. Your voice on these and other forums is valuable

 

[MelancholicPotatoChip]

I do not think that the Bible is proof of God. There is no proof of God.
I only said that the Bible can be considered evidence for God, but only in a particular sense.

Evidence is not the same as proof.

evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Google
evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:

evidence

1. facts, information, documents, etc. that give reason to believe that…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Note that evidence does only indicates or helps to prove whether a belief is true. It does not prove anything.

By contrast, proof establishes a fact. There is no proof that God exists or that any religion if true. There is only evidence that indicates that.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: Google

ok..how is it that the bible can be considered evidence for god but only in a particular sense, as you mentioned?

 

[CG Didymus]

ok..how is it that the bible can be considered evidence for god but only in a particular sense, as you mentioned?

If people want to believe the Bible and the NT are the inerrant, infallible and literal word of God, then yes... it is evidence and gives them "proof" that God if real.

But others can look at it and see plenty of evidence that people make up myths and legends about their gods.

What's odd is when Baha'is try to use the Bible for anything. Since they don't believe it is the inerrant, infallible, literal word of God.

The creation story and that whole thing about Adam and Eve? No, they don't believe it is literally true. In fact they believe in a type of evolution. The flood? No. Baha'u'llah talks about Noah and never mentions a flood. Abraham? They love talking about Abraham, but the most well known stories about Abraham, Baha'u'llah says that the Bible got it wrong. He says it was Ishmael, not Isaac, taken to be sacrificed. And how would he know? Of course, because Baha'is believe he knows all.

A couple of big things about what Christians believe, the resurrection and Satan. Baha'is don't believe that Jesus came back physically. They say it was he spirit the rose. That's fine, but how is that different than what they believe about every other person that has ever lived? They believe we all "rise" spiritually from the dead. But then what about Satan? They don't believe he is real.. But only symbolic.

So, where's the "evidence" of anything? For Baha'is... Did God walk in the garden with Adam? No. Did God send fire and brimstone from the sky? No. Did God speak from heaven? No.

Baha'is can say they believe in the Bible, but what they really mean is that they believe in how they interpret the Bible. For me, that makes it meaningless. If it isn't true. If what it says doesn't mean what it says, then scrap it... Why try to force it to mean to what they want it to say?

 

[Trailblazer]

ok..how is it that the bible can be considered evidence for god but only in a particular sense, as you mentioned?

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't believe the 'not peace but a sword' passage can ever be used to imply that Jesus supported violence. The passage is often used to position Jesus as advocating violence. The 'sword' to me means the choice between 'God and mammon' and the division caused to families and relationships by choosing the spirit over the world.
In Luke 2:35 where Simeon tells Mary that "a sword will pierce through your own soul also" the sword does not have a literal meaning. I'm sure there are many passages in the New Testament where the sword does not have a literal meaning?
Hang in there brother. Your voice on these and other forums is valuable

Right, Jesus did Not support violence, and remained politically neutral in world affairs
Jesus and his followers did Not even get involved in the political issues of the day between the Jews and Romans
However, Jesus was Not a pacifist in the sense that Jesus supported God's government aka kingdom - Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:18
Jesus will take the decisive action found at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15 to rid the earth of wickedness
So, yes, there would be and is division because of people choosing 'the spirit of the world's way of thinking' over the spirit of God's thinking
Also, Luke 2:35 Not a literal sword, but Mary being greatly grieved would be feeling the intense of the pain-filled execution - John 19:25-27
Thus, Mary survived the figurative 'sword of grief' which was touching through her head and heart

 

[Trailblazer]

If people want to believe the Bible and the NT are the inerrant, infallible and literal word of God, then yes... it is evidence and gives them "proof" that God if real.

What's odd is when Baha'is try to use the Bible for anything. Since they don't believe it is the inerrant, infallible, literal word of God.

Baha'is do not have to believe that the Bible is "the inerrant, infallible, literal word of God" in order for it to be considered evidence for God.
That would constitute black and white thinking.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

So the logical fallacy that you commit is saying it is either black or white. The Baha'is have to believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, literal word of God (black) or the Bible cannot be used for anything (white). For you there are no other alternatives. Can't you understand that is illogical? There are many Christians who do not believe that the Bible is 'the inerrant, infallible, literal word of God' yet they use the Bible as their holy book.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What the Baha'is believe about the Bible

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

In studying the Bible Bahá'ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(28 May 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

www.bahai-library.com

The creation story and that whole thing about Adam and Eve? No, they don't believe it is literally true. In fact they believe in a type of evolution. The flood? No. Baha'u'llah talks about Noah and never mentions a flood. Abraham? They love talking about Abraham, but the most well known stories about Abraham, Baha'u'llah says that the Bible got it wrong. He says it was Ishmael, not Isaac, taken to be sacrificed. And how would he know? Of course, because Baha'is believe he knows all.

A couple of big things about what Christians believe, the resurrection and Satan. Baha'is don't believe that Jesus came back physically. They say it was he spirit the rose. That's fine, but how is that different than what they believe about every other person that has ever lived? They believe we all "rise" spiritually from the dead. But then what about Satan? They don't believe he is real.. But only symbolic.

So, where's the "evidence" of anything? For Baha'is... Did God walk in the garden with Adam? No. Did God send fire and brimstone from the sky? No. Did God speak from heaven? No.

Wake up and smell the coffee....
Many Christians do not believe that the creation story and that whole thing about Adam and Eve, or the resurrection and Satan are literally true.

Those are beliefs of Christianity but they are not the essential elements of Jesus' teachings. In fact they are not even related to His teachings!

NONE of those 'beliefs' are necessary in order to say that the Bible contains spiritual truth and the truth about God, and is evidence for God.

Baha'is can say they believe in the Bible, but what they really mean is that they believe in how they interpret the Bible. For me, that makes it meaningless. If it isn't true. If what it says doesn't mean what it says, then scrap it... Why try to force it to mean to what they want it to say?

Wake up and smell the coffee....
Everyone who reads the Bible, including Christians, interprets and believes according to how they interpret the Bible.
Why do you continue to single out the Baha'is?

The Bible does not SAY anything because books do not talk. All texts need to be interpreted in order to apply a meaning to the words.
All Christians do not apply the same meanings to the same verses. Otherwise we would not have these continual debates between Christians ob this forum.

Baha'is do not 'want' the Bible to mean anything. Baha'is do not care what the Bible means because it is NOT our holy book.
Baha'is discuss the Bible here because they are on a religious forum. Do you think that Baha'is discuss the Bible when they meet among themselves, or even at interfaith gatherings with Christians? This is a debate/discussion forum, so that is why we disuss and debate about the Bible!

I have made the Baha'i position on the Bible perfectly clear to you and others on this forum on innumerable occasions, but I feel like what I have posted has fallen on your deaf ears, since you keep saying the same things over and over again, as if I never explained our position.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

None of the verses below are about Jesus returning to Earth in the latter days. They are about Jesus returning from having done something during His lifetime on Earth 2000 years ago.
Luke 19
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Isaiah and Revelation speaks of the return of Christ/coming of the messiah of the latter days, but that was not and never will be Jesus, since Jesus never promised to return to Earth. Jesus said His work was finished here and he was NO MORE in the world.
(John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)
I believe the return of Christ/messiah of the latter days was Baha'u'llah.
Thus, it will be the 'words' spoken from Baha'u'llah's mouth will eventually rid the Earth of wickedness.
Yes, 'many have missed and will miss the boat' because they are waiting for Jesus to return and He ain't coming back.
That's correct. The Bible clearly delineated who would come and it ain't Jesus.

Try reading Revelation 22:20 about, "Amen, Come, Lord Jesus ! "
It is Not until the time of Rev. 22:7 that is when Jesus will come quickly
( Jesus comes 'after' the great tribulation of Rev. 7:14 starts. That tribulation starts when the political/military turns on religion )
Revelation was written 'after' Jesus was resurrected to Heaven - Rev. 3:12
When Jesus comes there will be ' Healing ' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2
Healing on Earth to come as described at Isaiah 35:5-7